TEK Ethyl acetate approach [CIELO]

[Loveall]

Shroombee, yes please update the tek like you said, sounds like a good idea. Feel free to update the xtalization details (5mg/g first, then 20mg/g if needed), I agree with all that. To reiterate, my observations are:

- Pachanoi dried outer skin: 5mg/g is enough. Product is very pure and xtaline.
- Peruvian x Bridgessi dried whole plant: 20mg/g needed. Product is xtaline but slightly sticky.

Agree that the stickiness could be from more plant stuff from the whole plant. I can't say for sure.

I'm not sure this if this TEK gives better yields than other TEKs in general. Ideally, TEKs that work and are done with good technique should all give similar yields to first order. In my case, this TEK has consistently given me slightly higher yields than others I've tried with same starting material, but that could be because I did not do the longer TEKs as well as I should have.

Regarding cutting fresh cacti, no special equipment needed other than a good sharp knife and a cutting board. Just carefully chop between rows of spines and dry in a food dehydrator, then grind it all (including spines).

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Is there any special technique for cutting those clean stars without poking yourself with the spines?

It's possible to hold the cactus with layers of sufficiently thick corrugated cardboard. Spines seem to get through all the various gloves I've tried. Another option is to burn the spines off with a blowtorch. Do we know whether there is a significant alkaloid content in the spines?

 

[shroombee]

Do we know whether there is a significant alkaloid content in the spines?

That would be a worthy experiment.

 

[Loveall]

I remember reading that spines don't contain alkaloids (but don't have the reference).

I just keep them out of laziness

 

[grollum]

Loveall and shroombee, thanks for your ongoing optimization efforts.
I really love the tek and will give it another try soon. Loveall: Your detailed report from plant to xtal will be very helpful for many.
Shroombee: A FAQ would help many as well! Great idea!

I want to make some comments to my experiments. After evaporating and letting dry my complete collected resin from 3 trys from around 270g of dried cacti material.
I ended up with a sticky brown (maybe from to much heat) resin.
I think I added to much citric acid somehwere in the process.
During my drying process I also had a phase in the oven with to much heat which let the resin boil for a short moment and small bubbles showed. Maybe that destroyed everything? In the end I let it finally dry on a heat mat for several days. after drying I scraped all the sticky material and redisolved into new fresh Ethylacetate because I had the feeling it was to much to be only the desired product. And it was tasting really like citric acid.
The resin dissolved really slow and I had to warm it up with a heat pad for several days.
finally it decomposed into something which looked like white, grey, brown powder which collected on the floor. The ethylacetate got yellow brown during the process.
I filtered the fluid and got a fine sandy powder in the filter. After drying it the powder quickly collected fluid from the air and got a sticky mass again . Whats going on here?

Might there be another good way of separating the xtals from the ethylacetate? Without citric acid or with an alternative?

Would a simple water pull work? Is there something else in the ethylacetate I would pull but dont want to extract?

I plan another try with the updated tek with different citric acid, no heat and much more patience. Maybe a automatic stirrer would be handy.

I also realized that different cacti material sometimes needs different proportions of water and lime to get the same smooth consistency.

 

[Grey Fox]

The best way that I've found to deal with the spines is to pull them out with needle nose pliers. The pliers that work best are extra long pliers like this one that is used for fishing:

https://sfttackle.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/265x/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/h/shimano-brutus-black-nickel-long-nose-pliers.jpg

I pull the spines first before doing any processing of the cutting. Its best to just get them out of the way to start with. They can hurt your fingers pretty badly if you are not careful.

If you grab the spines at their base and pull with a slight twisting motion then it should pop the entire areole out, without damaging or removing the green flesh around the areole.

But its only worth the trouble of pulling the spines if they are long enough to be a problem. With Scopulicola or short spined Pachanoi its not really necessary to remove the spines.

Its interesting for me as an observer to see the progress that is being made here in this thread. It seems that Loveall has discovered a very promising new method. Clearly, a lot of hard work, creativity, and dedication have gone into this new tek.

However it is my hope that as this and other new methods are developed for extracting mescaline that it will not lead to people buying more and more cactus powder from South America, at the expense of cultivating their own cacti. Growing and caring for these plants is incredibly rewarding. It adds something special to the trip (and to life in general) to know that the cactus is growing and flourishing in partnership with you. That symbiosis is half of the beauty of the cactus experience. Hopefully that symbiotic partnership will not be lost or devalued as new ways to extract mescaline are discovered.

 

[shroombee]

grollum: Sorry you're not getting better results. I'm assuming dissolving the resin in ethyl acetate at least separated the mescaline from the citric acid.

Maybe try a simple step to clean the sticky mass. Weigh the product. Then try to get it to dissolve in 100 ml of water (so it's convenient to evaporate with a fan). Anything that doesn't dissolve is not mescaline citrate. Decant the water and evaporate. After evaporation let's see what you have.

Do we know the solubility of mescaline citrate in acetone, IPA, or ethyl alcohol - oh wait I'm supposed to run that experiment for DFZ. Haven't had time to do it yet.

If you believe there's some mescaline in the ethyl acetate, you can pull with water, evaporate, then dissolve in ethyl acetate to separate from citric acid, filter, etc.

I plan another try with the updated tek with different citric acid, no heat and much more patience. Maybe a automatic stirrer would be handy.

I also realized that different cacti material sometimes needs different proportions of water and lime to get the same smooth consistency.

I reviewed your materials from a previous post: 99+% ethyl acetate, 98% aquarium calcium hydroxide, anhydrous citric acid. Should be fine. Cheap magnetic stirrers are about $30.

I've only worked with dried Peruvian Torch chips, so I'm not familiar with different consistencies. I don't know what you mean by smooth consistency. My cactus is moist fluffy/crumbly when initially mixed but it will bind together into a mass. Note in the photos below that the bowl and silicone spoon are relatively clean.

Attached are some photos of what my cactus looks like when basing and pulling. 50 grams finely powdered cactus, 150 grams water, 12.5 grams pickling lime.

Photo #1: Done mixing. I make milky water then gradually add small amounts of cactus powder while stirring;
Photo #2: Cactus can be pushed into a ball;
Photo #3: Can pick the whole ball up with a spoon;
Photo #4: Cactus basing in the mason jar (had to put it into the jar in smaller pieces);
Photo #5: First pull with ethyl acetate, in a glass french press with stainless steel holder. At this stage the cactus is loose, not sticky. It will get sticky about 30 minutes after contact with ethyl acetate;

 

[shroombee]

However it is my hope that as this and other new methods are developed for extracting mescaline that it will not lead to people buying more and more cactus powder from South America, at the expense of cultivating their own cacti. Growing and caring for these plants is incredibly rewarding. It adds something special to the trip (and to life in general) to know that the cactus is growing and flourishing in partnership with you. That symbiosis is half of the beauty of the cactus experience. Hopefully that symbiotic partnership will not be lost or devalued as new ways to extract mescaline are discovered.

Thanks for the spine removal instructions.

Agreed on cultivating our own cacti. It's something I've just started looking into. As there is progress being made on legalization, I'm hoping we will have the opportunity to purchase pharmaceutical mescaline rather than needing to destroy a plant to obtain this spiritual medicine.

 

[Grey Fox]

I dont know if I would ever try pharmaceutical grade mescaline. I enjoy growing the plants too much. I drank some tea yesterday. The vasoconstriction in my arms was quite unpleasant for the first several hours. That part kind of sucked. But the experience was so healing and beautiful. I accept the bodyload issues as part of it.

Fortunately, it doesnt require killing any cacti to have these experiences. The cactus sacrifices part of its body to the grower to make tea. But the plant is allowed to live and continue growing and flourishing. Likewise, the grower sacrifices time, energy, and resources to care for the plant. It is a partnership, requiring effort and sacrifice from both parties. And both parties benefit in the process. This is the esssence of symbiosis.

 

[grollum]

@shroombee: thanks for reviewing the infos of my past post again and posting the images of your paste.
Seeing your photos makes me realize that my paste was to wet in two of my 3 attempts despite using the exact same proportions. Maybe adding this images to the tek would be helpful.

Will try again soon.

 

[shroombee]

@shroombee: thanks for reviewing the infos of my past post again and posting the images of your paste.
Seeing your photos makes me realize that my paste was to wet in two of my 3 attempts despite using the exact same proportions.

I describe the cactus mix as "fluffy moist dough" rather than "paste". The fluffiness and ease of manipulation being the quality that makes it not pasty. And it is not as dense as a paste and definitely not watery.

We've been suspecting that xtalization issues are caused by too much water. Perhaps we should test whether a drier mix works as well as the typical 100:300 cactus to water ratio. And that might lead to a lower water recommendation in the tek.

 

[Loveall]

I tried this approach starting with fresh whole peruvian and bridgesii (mostly SS01xS002xbridgesii seeds from misplant).

Cacti were stored in a paper bag in the garage over 5 months. 2649g were chopped into stars (1st image) and dehydrated with spines and all (second image, near the end of dehydration). After grinding, 120g of cactus powder was obtained (3rd image). The cactus was 95.4% water.

The CIELO tek was used to extract this powder. Observations/results:

1) More citric acid was needed for xtalization compared to san pedro outer skin chips (had to go up from 6mg/g to ~ 20mg/g). Not sure why this is, but that is what happened. I've updated the tek to be 20 my/g so it works in more situations.
2) Almost all of the product stuck to the wall. A lot of it looked like water drops (especially towards the top of the jar), but is solid xtaline (4th image).
3) Final product is xtaline and slightly bitter but a little sticky (5th image). Not sure if that is because whole plants were used or because this is peruvian/bridgesii instead of San Pedro pachanoi.
4) Bioassay and analysis pending. Expecting an active product based on experience with San Pedro skin chips.
5) Yield was 960mg (0.8%). I think this is a good yield if using whole plants (instead of outer skin chips) based on reference data.

Overall, very happy with how easy it was to extract my peruvian x bridgesii plants from last year

Bioassay done with this this product. 600mg resulted in an very pleasant experience. No difference noted in intensity and effects compared to product from dry pachanoi chips.

Very happy and thankful with the results.

 

[metta-morpheus]

So report on my bio assay. I took one jar that was the collected precip from 50 grams. The powder weighed 380 mgs, so I added another 20 from a different jar for a total of 400 mgs. I had eaten some fruit 2 hours earlier, but about 10 minutes after taking it, I got hit with munchies, and ate a few things. About 1 1/2 hours later I felt a very slight alteration. This stayed present for another couple hours, but it was certainly mild. Not like when I took a 50 gram resin tek dose. So I either messed with the metabolism/release of the molecule by eating, or my powder is mostly citric which has been a concern of mine. I feel like I should have gotten much more from 400 mgs.

 

[Loveall]

Thanks for the report Metta-Morpheus.

The TEK will be kept as a separate page unlinked to the nexus wiki until/if we figure out why it works sometimes but not others.

 

[metta-morpheus]

Has anyone tried reusing their ethyl for another extraction? Would adding extra lime to the paste to neutralize the acid in the ethyl, or something along these lines make it feasible? I have no idea if this is laughable from a chemistry standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint, I have almost a gallon of green ethyl acetate. It would be nice to reuse it and not have to buy more.

 

[Loveall]

Has anyone tried reusing their ethyl for another extraction? Would adding extra lime to the paste to neutralize the acid in the ethyl, or something along these lines make it feasible? I have no idea if this is laughable from a chemistry standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint, I have almost a gallon of green ethyl acetate. It would be nice to reuse it and not have to buy more.

I think this is a great question. It should be reusable in principle...

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Has anyone tried reusing their ethyl for another extraction? Would adding extra lime to the paste to neutralize the acid in the ethyl, or something along these lines make it feasible? I have no idea if this is laughable from a chemistry standpoint, but from a consumer standpoint, I have almost a gallon of green ethyl acetate. It would be nice to reuse it and not have to buy more.

I've been pondering this too. Considering there's only a limited solubility of the acid in the ethyl acetate it would require a mere teaspoon or so of lime for neutralization.

Stirring the acidified EA with some sodium bicarbonate powder might be a gentle way of removing the citric acid without hydrolysing the EA.

The trouble is the main hydrolysis product carried over in the spent ethyl acetate, ethanol, which is exceedingly difficult to remove as the boiling points are too close. Ethanol will continually accumulate in the EA the more it is reused until at some point it fails to separate from the lime paste because of ethanol's miscibility with water. It seems reasonable to suspect this has already been observed in some of the trials with longer pull times. Prolonged contact with the lime paste leads to increased hydrolysis of the EA.

EDIT: another thing that springs to mind (maybe I'm getting repetitive) is that calcium acetate forms a gel with ethanol. A surface layer of calcium acetate (from hydrolysis of EA) on the lime would also absorb ethanol from the hydrolysis. The more ethanol present in the (re-used) EA, the worse this would get. It's easy - for me at least - to imagine how this gel (which, incidentally, is sold as fuel gel) would also absorb the EA and make separation troublesome. It would be desirable to perform test on the absorption of EA by calcium acetate/ethanol gel. I really need to get hold of some EA.

By way of comparison, in principle butanol would be easier to remove from butyl acetate should that solvent prove to be an effective alternative to EA. Further tests are in the pipeline.

Fortunately, it doesnt require killing any cacti to have these experiences. The cactus sacrifices part of its body to the grower to make tea. But the plant is allowed to live and continue growing and flourishing. Likewise, the grower sacrifices time, energy, and resources to care for the plant. It is a partnership, requiring effort and sacrifice from both parties. And both parties benefit in the process. This is the esssence of symbiosis.

This sentiment resonates most strongly!

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Do we know the solubility of mescaline citrate in acetone, IPA, or ethyl alcohol - oh wait I'm supposed to run that experiment for DFZ. Haven't had time to do it yet.

Hehe, don't worry - I've been busy too. Anyhow, some ethanol has turned up. Now it's a matter of uniting solute with solvent - but that means preparing the solute is the more pressing issue over here. Whatever happens will happen. The prize is the solubility data, and/or the practical application thereof.

 

[metta-morpheus]

So it’s been maybe a month or so since I did this extraction. When I was done I collected all my spent green ethyl into a gallon pickle jar. It was about 3/4 full, with no solids and a clean see through green tint. I happened to look at it today...:shock:

So there’s something to more time allowing more to crash out, as loveall suspected. I mean, the jar is caked with beautiful needles!

Edit: 680 mgs scraped out, with some residue left in jar to dissolve into water.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

That's a most wonderful treat to behold, MM. And just in time for cactus day, too!

Was the jar stored at room temperature? Do you think any evaporation of solvent might have occurred?