TEK Ethyl acetate approach [CIELO]

[Twilight Person]

It's not really overthinking - I would anyways run it over night.

But I want to do it with friends and now I hoped that maybe people say under correct circumstances 3 h is enough, so we dont need to do 3 different days, but only 2 (1x powder+extract, 1x add citric acid). But then it will probably extend to 3x Even 4x as we also want to see the crystals afterwards.

About the citric acid:

Yes so if not specificially searched for that all Citric Acid is the anhydrous version. So I bought the hydrate, but as it was not from a chemical supplier I want to be sure what is the consequence if it is not actually the hydrate but the anhydrous. So far it sounds like no difference, but then I'm asking myself why the TEK specificially wants the hydrate? The other one is bought in any grocery, but the hydrate needs to be bought from internet supplier. So I guess there must be indeed a reason? Waiting 16 h instead of 12 h for dissolving it seems like no difference

 

[Madhattress]

It's not really overthinking - I would anyways run it over night.

But I want to do it with friends and now I hoped that maybe people say under correct circumstances 3 h is enough, so we dont need to do 3 different days, but only 2 (1x powder+extract, 1x add citric acid). But then it will probably extend to 3x Even 4x as we also want to see the crystals afterwards.

About the citric acid:

Yes so if not specificially searched for that all Citric Acid is the anhydrous version. So I bought the hydrate, but as it was not from a chemical supplier I want to be sure what is the consequence if it is not actually the hydrate but the anhydrous. So far it sounds like no difference, but then I'm asking myself why the TEK specificially wants the hydrate? The other one is bought in any grocery, but the hydrate needs to be bought from internet supplier. So I guess there must be indeed a reason? Waiting 16 h instead of 12 h for dissolving it seems like no difference

I just use regular store bought citric acid in the food section and have done many successful extractions using it.

 

[Toshido]

What happens if you use too much citric acid? I added more to my jars just to see if anything would happen. Nothing did. I would say there is a total of 10g CA in each 900mL quart jar.

IS it possible to do a sodium carb wash on my 2 quarts of CASEA to make it fresh EA again?

Otherwise I'll have to toss it and start from scratch. Thanks.

 

[Loveall]

What happens if you use too much citric acid?

IS it possible to do a sodium carb wash on my 2 quarts of CASEA to make it fresh EA again?

Otherwise I'll have to toss it and start from scratch. Thanks.

It is hard to use too much citric acid, but if you do it won't dissolve and be present in the product. The product will also form small needles relatively quickly.

Wet EA you can dissolve the excess citric acid in the product and leave mescaline citrate behind.

 

[Toshido]

Ok so too much CA even in CASEA will promote tiny crystals? I guess the used EA I have is no good considering in my first run I went off path and added too much.

 

[Loveall]

Ok so too much CA even in CASEA will promote tiny crystals? I guess the used EA I have is no good considering in my first run I went off path and added too much.

The sodium carbonate washes remove all CA, so it should be reusable

 

[Quetzal7]

Hiya
for some reasons, i got fine dropplets of water sitting at the bottom of the EA during the fridge rest (even do though i did the decanting first... some more water appeared ... )
i didn't had cristals, so i collected the water and evaporated it, yielding a sticky clear honey
what's the best way to try to recrystalize this ?
do i have to make a mini A/B to remove CA traces (as i assume there was some CA in the water ) ?

 

[Loveall]

Hiya
for some reasons, i got fine dropplets of water sitting at the bottom of the EA during the fridge rest (even do though i did the decanting first... some more water appeared ... )
i didn't had cristals, so i collected the water and evaporated it, yielding a sticky clear honey
what's the best way to try to recrystalize this ?
do i have to make a mini A/B to remove CA traces (as i assume there was some CA in the water ) ?

I don't follow. Are you saying you did the fridge rest + decant once, then you repeated that for a second time and got more water

Or did you get dropplets after salting?

 

[jbark]

Trying to source Ethyl Acetate. I have found Methyl Ethyl Keytone (MEK), but the tek says that Ethyl Acetate is a MEK substitute. Does this mean, as I assume, that I cannot use Methyl Ethyl Keytone?

If not, what type of store would stock Ethyl Acetate?

Thanks,

JBArk

 

[Toshido]

Man where on Earth did you find MEK? They spent a great deal of time banning it. I don't think anyone has tested that before. Loveall would know though.

 

[jbark]

Man where on Earth did you find MEK? They spent a great deal of time banning it. I don't think anyone has tested that before. Loveall would know though.

Yeah I had heard that it was difficult to come by... I'm in canada, and it's available at Canadian tire:

 

[_Trip_]

MEK would likely be too polar.

 

[Toshido]

I was able to locate the specific MSDS for that brand. Here.

Other product's MSDS's have noted it being greater than or equal to 95% MEK but this one states 100% so at least it's a sound product!

It does however have a very low flash point and boiling point, but CIELO doesn't use any heat what so ever, just thought I'd mention it. But yeah, you want something less polar. MEK is polar. Ethyl Acetate is slightly polar.

"Ethyl acetate, a carboxylate ester, is a bio-friendly organic solvent with a wide range of industrial applications. It is a moderately polar compound, containing a non polar ethyl group, a polar carbonyl (C=O) group and a polar oxygen atom."

 

[Loveall]

MEK has nothing to do with the CIELO process.

The solvent used is ethyl acetate, sometimes labeled as MEK substitute for unrelated historical purposes.

 

[Quetzal7]

Hiya
for some reasons, i got fine dropplets of water sitting at the bottom of the EA during the fridge rest (even do though i did the decanting first... some more water appeared ... )
i didn't had cristals, so i collected the water and evaporated it, yielding a sticky clear honey
what's the best way to try to recrystalize this ?
do i have to make a mini A/B to remove CA traces (as i assume there was some CA in the water ) ?

I don't follow. Are you saying you did the fridge rest + decant once, then you repeated that for a second time and got more water

Or did you get dropplets after salting?

Yes i got more dropplets after salting ... we could blame an error of manipulation, but i had 4 jars of EA (i kept each pull separated) and theyr all did the same thing
could it be the citric acid that absorbed humidity ? it's a old citric acid, got it 2 years ago i think...

 

[jbark]

MEK has nothing to do with the CIELO process.

The solvent used is ethyl acetate, sometimes labeled as MEK substitute for unrelated historical purposes.

Thanks Lovall! I figured, but I'm having trouble sourcing ethyl acetate (affordable or local), so I crossed my fingers and deferred to more knowledgeable chemists like yourself.

JBArk

 

[Twilight Person]

Hello Nexians

what was again the problem of COMPLETELY drying the ethyl acetate (with mgso4 or similar) prior to adding the citric acid?

Will it completely stop crystal formation or will they be just in other shape, or will they only sometimes precipitate/never/... ?

 

[starbob]

what was again the problem of COMPLETELY drying the ethyl acetate (with mgso4 or similar) prior to adding the citric acid?

Will it completely stop crystal formation or will they be just in other shape, or will they only sometimes precipitate/never/... ?

Endlessness summarized a few pages back some water seems necessary for best yields but I can't say I understand fully myself :d .

I have a different question about drying with reused neutralized EtAc; if I'm making CASEA with reused EtAc I don't really need to dry it to begin with right? Since the addtl water will assist making CASEA with anhydrous citric acid? Does the anhydrous citric acid effectively dry it assuming there isn't a ton of water in it and just for use with CASEA?

 

[Loveall]

what was again the problem of COMPLETELY drying the ethyl acetate (with mgso4 or similar) prior to adding the citric acid?

Will it completely stop crystal formation or will they be just in other shape, or will they only sometimes precipitate/never/... ?

Endlessness summarized a few pages back some water seems necessary for best yields but I can't say I understand fully myself :d .

I have a different question about drying with reused neutralized EtAc; if I'm making CASEA with reused EtAc I don't really need to dry it to begin with right? Since the addtl water will assist making CASEA with anhydrous citric acid? Does the anhydrous citric acid effectively dry it assuming there isn't a ton of water in it and just for use with CASEA?

Thar makes sense. I have never done CASEA, but there seems to be no reason to dry it. I would fridge rest and decant any water from the washed solvent, just to keep the % water the same everywhere. May be unnecessary and there may be no water from the fridge after a brine wash, IDK. Good check I think.

 

[Loveall]

Hello Nexians

what was again the problem of COMPLETELY drying the ethyl acetate (with mgso4 or similar) prior to adding the citric acid?

Will it completely stop crystal formation or will they be just in other shape, or will they only sometimes precipitate/never/... ?

The nice xtals that form have 1.5 molecules of water per molecule of mescaline citrate.

A litte bit of water helps the citric acid dissolve and react with mescaline FB and form the nice xtals. It may keep plant gunk in solution when acidified. A chemist did the usual lab chem dry and had some junk in the xtals that slowly formed.

We have done many tests, and for some reason the water content of fridge cold EA is perfect for the process.

The reasons above are best guesses. At the end of the day it just works experimentally. And we tried many combinations......