Fear mongering and psychedelics

[ghrue84]

I'm tired of it. Stop your fear mongering. Your assumptions of what DMT is or isn't. How can you prove that they are nothing more than assumptions and your ego's or mind's own fears manifesting?

How can you prove that it's not just you judging an "entity" based on it's aesthetic value? Instead of paying attention, you quickly and thoughtlessly attribute "demon" or "evil" without even thinking if you're tripping in the adequate place, with the adequate people, with the adequate attitude of respect.

Tripping ain't a joke. You treat psychedelics like a joke they will treat you like a joke and play and mess around with you until you humble down. It's kind of like in the waking state. You treat people like a joke people will treat you like a joke. It's very simple. You treat people with reverence and respect and you will find that more people will treat you the same way. The same thing applies to psychedelics.

Then again, what my ego has written in these paragraphs might also be assumptions. What my ego does think is that it's better to have positive assumptions than negative fear mongering ones, however.

It might be extremely positive to think that I am existence consciousness bliss and the rest of it is illusion. But think about it for a while. You're always conscious and you're always existing. Are you not? The only aspect that would be obscured by appearances and illusions is the bliss. Everyone wants to be happy and in fact everyone is in chase for absolute and permanent happiness. Perhaps it's because it's our true nature and we don't truly identify with the suffering and misery of this world. Just some assumptions that I've read and thought about.

It's not good to live in fear, that much (my ego thinks it knows) I know. If you live in fear you are continuously inhabiting the ego instead of your true self. Just what my ego thinks. Observing how (my ego has behaved) it's behaved when living in fear vs. when living thinking that everything is love. There is a clear difference. In fear, neurosis, reactions come. In love everything is taken in calmness and you are bliss itself. Decide. What do you want? Neurosis or Bliss? Just observe your ego when you're in fear vs. when you're in love (I'm talking real love for everything and everyone, not lustful attraction) and decide for yourself. I'm sure you'll find an answer.

 

[FranLover]

I've brokenthrough about a hundred times more or less and I've never experienced anything that could be called evil or wrathful or demonic, altough I've noticed things can have dark undertones (dark sorcerers, eeiry scenes, dark magician jesters, the dementors of Azkaban.)

I agree with the main premise here; you get back what you put in. And indeed, living with any sort of conditioning (fear) is a waste of life, cause as you said, in that state we only inhabit the ego instead of the gorgeous and blissful Emptiness inside us all.

I would only ever give DMT to someone who appears stable enough to handle it. I really believe this stuff can give you a heart atack if it goes too deep and you are not ready for it (you can never be ready for it.) At the very least it can really screw up someone mentally. So dmt is like the ocean, treat it not with fear but respect.

 

[xss27]

I'm tired of it. Stop your fear mongering. Your assumptions of what DMT is or isn't. How can you prove that they are nothing more than assumptions and your ego's or mind's own fears manifesting?

..

Then again, what my ego has written in these paragraphs might also be assumptions. What my ego does think is that it's better to have positive assumptions than negative fear mongering ones, however.

..

It might be extremely positive to think that I am existence consciousness bliss and the rest of it is illusion.

It is your assumption that others observations are fear mongering and not actually based in reality. You do not know either way what they have experienced is the truth as they convey it or as it pertains, and only what you have experienced personally has any validity at all (and for all time).

Positive thinking is just that [thinking], again as dictated by your own personal bias - define 'better'. I can suggest to you numerous situations where anger for example, a particular 'negative' emotional colouration of thinking, can in fact be far more useful, practical, and even indeed life saving in that context. The quality of thoughts are completely relative and inconsequential really.

Thinking you are existence consciousness bliss is not the same as experiencing it, becoming it. You can't think 'no-thought' or 'no-mind', you can only become those states. Whilst it may actually be true that we are that, and I agree we are underneath the baggage of the mind, until one actually experiences that state it is meaningless to speculate.

There is nothing preventing our true nature being 'Satchitananda' and negative entities having an autonomous existence beyond our DMT experiences. My experiences suggest both are true, and more than that why on earth would anyone logically assume all entities are figments of our imagination or all non-harmful? Look at the biological world. Predators and parasites exist at every level!

 

[Sabnock1990]

I too think the evil/demonic entity thing is over-exaggerated. I think it's simply people being put into fight or flight mode, mixed with the overall intensity of the experience, and archetypes, plus programming from society, and people not using discernment, letting their minds psych them out/play tricks on them, but then again, i've rarely encountered entities from my oral DMT/Aya experiences, from smoked Changa, from Psilohuasca, from mushrooms or 4-ACO-DMT, from LSD, the few times i've felt like i was experiencing some entities though was on Aya and it felt more like i was connecting to some human-like beings that were either in that space i had entered or were people also in that space while also on Aya somewhere around the world lol, so i by far haven't had much experience with entities to say for sure, but overall though i'd say you're far more likely to encounter negative/evil energies from other humans, particularly while in these states, than some interdimensional "demons".

I think the demon talk is just fear mongering by people who don't understand what Entheogens are actually about and that people generally feel a lack of empowerment, they feel powerless and don't know how powerful and strong and sovereign over their own consciousness and body they actually are. Anytime i've ever felt like something "negative" was around, whether it was actually around or was just my mind in that on edge panicy state, all i had to do was stand my ground and say that while i respect it's right to exist, it does not belong here and is not allowed to interfere/interact with me, my family, pets, not even allowed on my property, and those negative feelings/sensations always went away, so i'm more inclined to think it's something mindset-related, and let's face it, a lot of people set themselves up for that kind of mindset, feeding the fear, being afraid of the unknown, so much so they let it consume them, rather than rising above it and respectfully dismissing it.

Even if there are "demons", they feed on fear and illusion and the lies we tell ourselves about who/how/what we are, they like to make us think we're so small and they're so big when the opposite is true, we have the say so over our own minds and bodes and soul/spirit and no one/nothing can take that away from us. I've also had times where i've felt possessed, in a way, my body would make strange movements, it'd feel like i was channeling some sort of being that was talking through me, i'd talk in tongues and make weird noises, but at the end of the day it was all me and if i was possessed by something, it was the "holy spirit", certainly no demon lol.

But people's reality tunnels are different and i'm of the opinion that beliefs can shape one's reality so if you're more inclined to believe in the existence of demons, or you misperceive something as demonic during an experience which leaves you feeling/believing the possible existence of demons, then that tends to open you up more to that side of your reality tunnel therefore you're more likely to experience such things. I however, prefer to take a more skeptical, discerning, but open minded approach and i question what i experience, the only time i believe something without a shadow of a doubt is when there's a very strong sense of knowing attached to it that it's very real, which some say they get when it comes to entities but so far in my encounters with entities the few times i've experienced it, there was a lot of room for doubt as to what was going on and what i actually experienced and i didn't come away from those encounters knowing or believing anything, so i by far need more entity encounters to more fully make up my mind about the possibility of their existence, at least when it comes to spirits/entities, but as far as Christian-themed demons go, i think it's a load of crap and i haven't experienced anything in my extensive Aya experimentation/exploration that would suggest this stuff is the least bit evil/demonic/satanic. Christians in particular get on my nerves with their fear of the unknown.

 

[Exitwound]

I agree with xss27 thoughts on the subject and want to add my 2 cents:

I think the demon talk is just fear mongering by people who don't understand what Entheogens are actually about and that people generally feel a lack of empowerment, they feel powerless and don't know how powerful and strong and sovereign over their own consciousness and body they actually are.

What about people with 'mental illnesses', who claim to be possessed or otherwise troubled, are they exaggregating or fear mongering too?
Some sizable portion of people's experiences reported here, or all over the internet, are about demonic/dark or otherwise fearful encounters. I think dismissing these experiences as exaggregations or fear-mongering is unjust and by the same logic you can dismiss all the angelic or divine or blissful experiences as "new age bullshit talk". My point is that in general we all should be less harsh in our judgement or dismissal of other's psychedelic experiences, no matter how much of personal experience you have under your belt.

I get of course where this is coming from, I think that when we try to condense experience into dualistic language, when we try to explain the undividable in the language of polarities, we inevitably fail. I also agree that any experiences that happen, are: just in your mind, production of your imagination, result of indoctrination, deep-rooted beliefs and so on. But then isn't everything else (including our day-to-day existence) too?

My personal thoughts and experiences are in sync with hermetic teachings, so far I observe hermetic axioms and they seem to be working for me both in hyperspace and daily life. So if you take "so above as below" as an axiom, just like in our reality, you should be ready for any kind of experience out of it. Just like you can meet a jaguar in the jungle, maybe there are some hyper-jaguars in hyper-jungles

I've brokenthrough about a hundred times more or less and I've never experienced anything that could be called evil or wrathful or demonic, altough I've noticed things can have dark undertones (dark sorcerers, eeiry scenes, dark magician jesters, the dementors of Azkaban.)

Oh come on, please no gambler's fallacies! I've flown airplane hundreds of times and never fallen out of the sky, this means that people who talk about planes falling are fear-mongering cowards.

I would only ever give DMT to someone who appears stable enough to handle it. I really believe this stuff can give you a heart atack if it goes too deep and you are not ready for it (you can never be ready for it.) At the very least it can really screw up someone mentally. So dmt is like the ocean, treat it not with fear but respect.

Agree completely with this.

To everyone who thinks that dark experiences are just a product of weak minds
If you never had really bad or dark trip, congratulations! Your Zen is probably like a stone and your can bend mountains with just a flick of your 3rd eye in hyperspace, pelase have mercy and be kind to us, poor cowardly mortals

 

[FranLover]

I've brokenthrough about a hundred times more or less and I've never experienced anything that could be called evil or wrathful or demonic, altough I've noticed things can have dark undertones (dark sorcerers, eeiry scenes, dark magician jesters, the dementors of Azkaban.)

Oh come on, please no gambler's fallacies! I've flown airplane hundreds of times and never fallen out of the sky, this means that people who talk about planes falling are fear-mongering cowards.

I'm just recounting my experience for those who have not tried dmt. I'm sure many on here like me have never seen anything even similar to a demon on dmt. I would like to hear stories though? mua

 

[FranLover]

To everyone who thinks that dark experiences are just a product of weak minds
If you never had really bad or dark trip, congratulations! Your Zen is probably like a stone and your can bend mountains with just a flick of your 3rd eye in hyperspace, pelase have mercy and be kind to us, poor cowardly mortals

 

[Sabnock1990]

Well of course there's good and bad, positive and negative in pretty much all things, especially within the mind and unconscious, though imo bad/negative doesn't necessarily equate to evil, or demonic. Idk about the truly mentally ill, like psychosis or schizophrenia and their views/interpretations on what they personally experience, but i do think like all people, a lot of fears are rooted in the mind and especially in mistaking/misperceiving what's going on, sometimes even to the point of delusion. I get what you're saying though, and i certainly don't discount the possibility of interdimensional beings, i'm open to that sort of thing existing in both positive and negative, however, the term demonic generally brings with it a lot of christian baggage and fear mongering, and especially when it comes to Psychedelics and people taking them without much understanding of what these tools do and how they're to be approached and used, people can sometimes find themselves in situations where these unfounded fears come up and are manifested in a form they can relatively easily understand/make sense out of which just so happens to be the realm of demons, the devil, possession, "holes in the aura", implanted thoughts, deception, etc, and so imo some latch onto those things and just take it too far without really having much of an actual understanding as to what they're really going through and dealing with.

It's very easy to see, for me at least, how someone could freak out during the come up at least especially of very powerful and intense Psychedelics, putting them into a panic/fight or flight mode, making them feel as if there's some sort of nearby threat to their safety, as i've experienced that myself personally, and especially with some of the "weird" stuff that goes on during these experiences, to the uninformed/uninitiated person it could very well seem like something "evil" is happening or is around, but i just think people need to be a bit more skeptical, be open minded but not too open minded, be receptive, but use discernment, experiment, see what we can learn about ourselves and these Psychedelics and what they may or may not open us up to perceive, without right off the bat attributing some label to it especially based out of fear and panic. If one could consistently/reliably connect and communicate and interact with specific beings, and they could learn more about the beings they're in touch with, they'd be more able to figure out what's what, but unless that's possible, i think it'd be a little premature to rush to conclusions so quickly, especially off some base fear of "evil". As i said, imo, you're far more likely to encounter evil in the form of Humans than you are to come across demons by consuming DMT.

But, even if there are actual demons aka evil spirits out there that pop up during these encounters, the least we could and should do is learn how to protect ourselves and stand our ground, rather than get scared away or go off on some religious tangent about how Jesus and the bible is the real deal and Entheogens are satanic/demonic, which i've seen people say multiple times lol, it's ridiculous, as we know, Entheogens are mere tools, and they often times, more often than not, manifest what's within ourselves, mentally, physically, spiritually, within ourselves, much of my Aya experimentation has had absolutely nothing to do with anything "out there", and everything about what's going on within me personally. Now, smoked DMT may be another matter, as i said, i haven't yet smoked pure DMT, i mainly work with Harmalas and DMT orally and have smoked some Changa a good bit, but as far as smoked DMT goes, i'm not sure what that's like aside from the Changa, and it's obviously been said that smoked DMT is more alien and entity-related, so i will investigate that at some point.

In the mean time though, i just think people need to try to be a bit more understanding of what these tools are actually about and rather than blame externalities or entities, they should be more concerned about their mindset and learning how to navigate these spaces and states, and if we do encounter an entity, learn how to protect ourselves, and learn how to dismiss them and not really pay them any attention, there's far more going on to pay attention to imo than some entities or visuals. Plus, i've read where quite a few people have said similar, in that if they see an entity (or mental image or archetype they mistake for an entity), they rise above any fear, dismiss what it is they're seeing, even sometimes to the point of being rude and hateful towards it, and conquer it and it just dissipates, which leads me to think, at least in those cases, it's mere figments of the imagination or some sort of archetype.

To me, DMT, at least in the form of oral DMT and Harmalas, seems to have so much more to do with spiritual teachings, enlightenment/illumination, self-knowledge, understanding the mind, body and soul/spirit, and clear perception (Divine Moments of Truth), whereas a lot of people seem to be focused solely on the visual or entity aspect, so my advice, careful what you feed your attention to, and if something pops up you're not interested in, learn how to clear the mind so that during these experiences you can detach from the mind and focus more on immersion into Self. But again, smoked DMT is said to be another kind of dimension, but i view dimensions from the perspective of multidimensional Human perception, not some other place we go to outside of where we are, it's like an expanded view of reality, which hypothetically speaking, could very well open up the possibility of entities here in this plane of reality just hidden behind the veils of usual perception. But as far as going to some other place that's not here goes, i've never really went anywhere but within myself, so who knows.

Either way, my experience with oral DMT is, if it's real, there's no room for doubt, there's a very genuine strong sense of knowing attached to what is experienced, otherwise, if not, it may not be real. If someone gets that strong sense, genuinely, when it comes to entities and they're careful and skeptical enough to know "shit from shinola", then to them it's real and that's okay, but rather than fear it or run from it, try to understand it more deeply, don't feed the fear. However, if they're not entirely sure or convinced as to what they're experiencing or have just experienced, then it's best not to put too much thought into it, imo, until something more concrete comes along.

So, demons, real or not? Imo no, negative entities, possibility. But as far as demons go, i'm sure the only demons one has to really worry about, is one's own, and in either case, it's best to respect it, accept it, but dismiss it and let it go, overcome it, work through it, find one's strength and power and stand their ground, but don't feed the fear or the fear will consume you, become manifest, and potentially manipulate you somehow. This stuff is to be understood, not feared, even if it is real.

On a side-note, i also have not experienced angels. So the same applies imo, try not to get too caught up in the idea of angels and demons, focus more on yourself and the larger reality. Divinity though, seems pretty damn real to me so far, but again, doesn't require the presence of angels, gods, deities and all that to be real.

And most importantly, people really need to not let the idea of satanism/the devil get into their minds so much, as far as i'm concerned, the devil is the ego that hasn't been taught and reigned in, god/soul is the inherent divine nature that exists beneath but works through and gets skewed by the ego/mind. Be soul, not the ego, realize our inherent divinity, and you realize that entities aren't much of a threat or concern, we should be more concerned with other Human beings and helping people awaken to their own true nature so that maybe we can deal with the evil here rather than worrying about potential evil from beyond.

 

[OneIsEros]

I think of psychedelics the same way many religions have historically thought of another practice: fasting. Fasting is a good thing according to many religions, but those same religions would also concede that fasting can leave you exposed or vulnerable to negative influences, and without adequate preparation, that can be harmful. It can be beneficial, but without preparation - decidedly harmful.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I'd never heard that about fasting. Interesting. The most i would think fasting would do is just cause you to starve, possibly induce altered states of consciousness, but i don't see how starving would leave one exposed to negative entities, i mean to think back on our ancient ancestors who probably had to make due with going without food for some time here and there, i'm not sure it would've left them exposed to negative entities, but maybe there's a difference in the duration of fasting, like after a certain time it goes from mere starvation into so called "hallucination", but fasting isn't a subject i have much knowledge about, and most i've ever fasted was like 5 days.

 

[EphemeralTruth]

I'd never heard that about fasting. Interesting. The most i would think fasting would do is just cause you to starve, possibly induce altered states of consciousness, but i don't see how starving would leave one exposed to negative entities, i mean to think back on our ancient ancestors who probably had to make due with going without food for some time here and there, i'm not sure it would've left them exposed to negative entities, but maybe there's a difference in the duration of fasting, like after a certain time it goes from mere starvation into so called "hallucination", but fasting isn't a subject i have much knowledge about, and most i've ever fasted was like 5 days.

I think he meant that as an analogy.

But physiologically, fasting actually increases the resilience of your metabolism and has a number of other benefits, if done in a controlled and healthy way.

8 Health Benefits of Fasting, Backed by Science

 

[dragonrider]

It's just a dogma:"all drugs are bad".
That's just the way of looking at it from the beginning on.

The moment most people, especially old people, hear about some substance that young people take for recreational purposes, the immediate response is always:"what are we going to do about this BIG PROBLEM".

The idea that maybe sometimes, it realy isn't much of a problem, does not even occur to them.

And ofcourse hedonism is very bad as well.
Why would you so desperately want to feel that you're alive? What's the need? Can't young people just quietly wither away in front of their TV's and wait for the grimm reaper to come and take them, like the rest of us?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It's pretty nonsensical. If someone gets their thrills by riding a horse/bike or climbing up a mountain (maybe both) and they fall off, requiring medical attention, that's fine. If, however, medical attention is required because of a drug reaction, that's somehow terrible and immoral. This makes no sense to me.

Please, everyone, stay at home and leave the paramedics in peace to eat their ice cream!

Remember, enjoyment of frozen confections is an hazardous activity only to be carried out by trained personnel!!

 

[ghrue84]

[/quote]

It is your assumption that others observations are fear mongering and not actually based in reality. You do not know either way what they have experienced is the truth as they convey it or as it pertains, and only what you have experienced personally has any validity at all (and for all time).

Positive thinking is just that [thinking], again as dictated by your own personal bias - define 'better'. I can suggest to you numerous situations where anger for example, a particular 'negative' emotional colouration of thinking, can in fact be far more useful, practical, and even indeed life saving in that context. The quality of thoughts are completely relative and inconsequential really.

Thinking you are existence consciousness bliss is not the same as experiencing it, becoming it. You can't think 'no-thought' or 'no-mind', you can only become those states. Whilst it may actually be true that we are that, and I agree we are underneath the baggage of the mind, until one actually experiences that state it is meaningless to speculate.

There is nothing preventing our true nature being 'Satchitananda' and negative entities having an autonomous existence beyond our DMT experiences. My experiences suggest both are true, and more than that why on earth would anyone logically assume all entities are figments of our imagination or all non-harmful? Look at the biological world. Predators and parasites exist at every level!

[/quote]

Anger is of no use to Brahman. Even in "survival" situations (which are situations of the ego or ahamkara, not of Brahman), you (your ego) can remain calm in your mind while you perform an action such as escaping from a wild animal or a psychopath human. In fact, it is likely that you'll perform better if your mind remains clear and calm while your body is performing the violent running or fighting if your ego wishes to survive. The ego's function has to do with surviving in the physical world, that's why it reacts to loud sounds and fears certain things, however, it can under-perform when the mind is cluttered with fear. Your ego can actually perform better when facing dangerous situations with a calm mind.

"Autonomous" or "separate" entities are always external and transient. What is real is neither external nor transient. It is eternal. If it has a beginning and an end, it is just appearance or illusion. What is real has no beginning nor end in time nor space, and thus it is infinite.

I've experienced Brahman both with DMT and without. Otherwise I would not be so confident as to recommend people to read about Advaita Vedanta. "Enlightenment" is not what many think. It's not necessarily that you will get a vision (but it can also occur in a way that a vision, or many visions, lead to it). It's more of an understanding and knowing what you are. Visions, depending on the visions and what is thought while (and after) the visions are revealing themselves, can help you realize what you are.

Some people can get enlightened by just having a really powerful DMT experience or with any entheogen for that matter. However, after the experience is over and you're "sure" about what you are, if you don't have a base to support this, i.e. knowledge of Brahman (or many such entheogenic experiences where you've annotated your thoughts after and during the experiences), your supposed "knowledge" of what you are may vacillate as your ego is still living in this world and it may pull you away from being established in Brahman. There might be negative situations which convince, or steer your ego away from your previous realization.

In order to establish your ego in Brahman, you must train your mind to think of Brahman at all times. It sounds nuts. But that's how you realize what you are without the help of entheogens. When the "I" is realized as Brahman instead of the body/mind/ego complex, that's when you've reached "enlightenment" and realize that there is no enlightenment. You were always Brahman. Always are, always will be.

There are also four yogas or paths which can lead to enlightenment, according to some schools of thought. Karma yoga (action), Raja yoga (meditation), Bhakti yoga (devotion) and Jnana yoga (knowledge). Different paths may be better suited for different persons. However, a combination of all four is ideal if your body/mind complex has the capabilities to perform all four. If your body is sick, injured or weak, it's likely that the best path (or the main path you should focus on) is Jnana. That's the main path I took because of injuries. However, I practiced Bhakti, Karma and Raja yoga along the way. Raja is very difficult if your body (especially hips, back and knees) is inflexible. I can't really sit in some of the classic meditation poses (like lotus or half lotus or even sukhasana which some call "easy pose" ), so I would lay down in Savasana when I wanted to meditate.

Good things to all.

 

[ghrue84]

Oh, and quality of thoughts is not inconsequential, as sattva guna is closer to Brahman and thus can help you realize Brahman, and rajas and tamas are farther from Brahman and thus can distract you from realizing Brahman or establishing yourself in Brahman.

 

[ghrue84]

Consider this my farewell from this site. Tat Tvam Asi. Aham Brahmasmi. Ayam Atma Brahma. Prajnanam Brahma.

Sat Cit Shanti Prema Ananda

 

[BundleflowerPower]

I'm tired of it. Stop your fear mongering. Your assumptions of what DMT is or isn't. How can you prove that they are nothing more than assumptions and your ego's or mind's own fears manifesting?

How can you prove that it's not just you judging an "entity" based on it's aesthetic value? Instead of paying attention, you quickly and thoughtlessly attribute "demon" or "evil" without even thinking if you're tripping in the adequate place, with the adequate people, with the adequate attitude of respect.

Tripping ain't a joke. You treat psychedelics like a joke they will treat you like a joke and play and mess around with you until you humble down. It's kind of like in the waking state. You treat people like a joke people will treat you like a joke. It's very simple. You treat people with reverence and respect and you will find that more people will treat you the same way. The same thing applies to psychedelics.

Then again, what my ego has written in these paragraphs might also be assumptions. What my ego does think is that it's better to have positive assumptions than negative fear mongering ones, however.

It might be extremely positive to think that I am existence consciousness bliss and the rest of it is illusion. But think about it for a while. You're always conscious and you're always existing. Are you not? The only aspect that would be obscured by appearances and illusions is the bliss. Everyone wants to be happy and in fact everyone is in chase for absolute and permanent happiness. Perhaps it's because it's our true nature and we don't truly identify with the suffering and misery of this world. Just some assumptions that I've read and thought about.

It's not good to live in fear, that much (my ego thinks it knows) I know. If you live in fear you are continuously inhabiting the ego instead of your true self. Just what my ego thinks. Observing how (my ego has behaved) it's behaved when living in fear vs. when living thinking that everything is love. There is a clear difference. In fear, neurosis, reactions come. In love everything is taken in calmness and you are bliss itself. Decide. What do you want? Neurosis or Bliss? Just observe your ego when you're in fear vs. when you're in love (I'm talking real love for everything and everyone, not lustful attraction) and decide for yourself. I'm sure you'll find an answer.

Agree. No judgement

 

[OneIsEros]

Anger is of no use to Brahman. Even in "survival" situations (which are situations of the ego or ahamkara, not of Brahman), you (your ego) can remain calm in your mind while you perform an action such as escaping from a wild animal or a psychopath human. In fact, it is likely that you'll perform better if your mind remains clear and calm while your body is performing the violent running or fighting if your ego wishes to survive. The ego's function has to do with surviving in the physical world, that's why it reacts to loud sounds and fears certain things, however, it can under-perform when the mind is cluttered with fear. Your ego can actually perform better when facing dangerous situations with a calm mind.

"Autonomous" or "separate" entities are always external and transient. What is real is neither external nor transient. It is eternal. If it has a beginning and an end, it is just appearance or illusion. What is real has no beginning nor end in time nor space, and thus it is infinite.

I've experienced Brahman both with DMT and without. Otherwise I would not be so confident as to recommend people to read about Advaita Vedanta. "Enlightenment" is not what many think. It's not necessarily that you will get a vision (but it can also occur in a way that a vision, or many visions, lead to it). It's more of an understanding and knowing what you are. Visions, depending on the visions and what is thought while (and after) the visions are revealing themselves, can help you realize what you are.

Some people can get enlightened by just having a really powerful DMT experience or with any entheogen for that matter. However, after the experience is over and you're "sure" about what you are, if you don't have a base to support this, i.e. knowledge of Brahman (or many such entheogenic experiences where you've annotated your thoughts after and during the experiences), your supposed "knowledge" of what you are may vacillate as your ego is still living in this world and it may pull you away from being established in Brahman. There might be negative situations which convince, or steer your ego away from your previous realization.

In order to establish your ego in Brahman, you must train your mind to think of Brahman at all times. It sounds nuts. But that's how you realize what you are without the help of entheogens. When the "I" is realized as Brahman instead of the body/mind/ego complex, that's when you've reached "enlightenment" and realize that there is no enlightenment. You were always Brahman. Always are, always will be.

There are also four yogas or paths which can lead to enlightenment, according to some schools of thought. Karma yoga (action), Raja yoga (meditation), Bhakti yoga (devotion) and Jnana yoga (knowledge). Different paths may be better suited for different persons. However, a combination of all four is ideal if your body/mind complex has the capabilities to perform all four. If your body is sick, injured or weak, it's likely that the best path (or the main path you should focus on) is Jnana. That's the main path I took because of injuries. However, I practiced Bhakti, Karma and Raja yoga along the way. Raja is very difficult if your body (especially hips, back and knees) is inflexible. I can't really sit in some of the classic meditation poses (like lotus or half lotus or even sukhasana which some call "easy pose" ), so I would lay down in Savasana when I wanted to meditate.

Good things to all.[/quote]

I’ve read the Upanisads and the Bhagavad Gita, though I have not read Sankara yet. I’m not a big fan of Hindu theology. Buddhism seems preferable. In the Gita, Krishna was encouraging Arjuna to ignore his instinctual aversion to killing people he loved because it was his “dharma” to do so, and that the action rather than the fruits was the important thing, and that peace and war are the same thing from an enlightened perspective, and that they were not dying and he was not killing anyway, he was just relocating their atman to new bodies, and that if he didn’t do this, the castes would intermingle and the racial purity of society would be damaged.

I understand the train of thought, but for me it is just too easy and common for the “ego-death/transcendence” religions to start following this pattern where they essentially chuck ethics out the window. There’s so much baggage that comes with Orthodox Hinduism that I basically would have to be nastika (heterodox) if I accepted a dharma religion. The caste system especially. I know there are schools of thought like advaita that relegate that stuff to “low revelation”, but Buddhism’s assertion that the caste was a barbaric and cruel delusion, is a much more admirable conclusion.

Eros’ personal rule of thumb: when ethics are being violated, take that as a sign that there is some misunderstanding at play (and the misunderstanding is not that “there is no ethics for the ultimate”, it is the “sage” who is in error). Buddhism has fallen into this sort of thinking historically as well, Japanese Zen turned into a warrior cult that said because of “no-self” you weren’t really killing people in World War II. It’s easy and it’s common and it always strikes me as a lazy error with ulterior motivations.

In Eros’ theology, ethics is prior to metaphysics - pragmatically, and metaphysically.

 

[FranLover]

Hi Eros, my friend n_n

Great horrors and hypocrisies are commited because of religion but religion exists precisley because its being's habit to commit great horrors and hypocrisies, so these inconsistencies are to be expected, more so with religions 3000 years old which are tied to the state and to the lives of the citizens. When one speaks of ancient texts as institutions, it seems to me that one is institutionalizing the texts, or lending authority to the institutions. The wise know that what matters is the truths in the texts or the words of the enlightened, and that what is to be misconstrued will be misconstrued anyway anyhow. What is irrational is not the Teaching of the Buddha though it be found in Buddhist Scriptures. On the contrary, "Whatever is well said is the Word of the Buddha," even when it is not the Master's own utterance, because the Blessed One acknowledge Truth wherever and by whomsoever spoken.

 

[OneIsEros]

Yup, with the exception of the slight bit of misogyny in the Pali suttas, I generally give the Pali suttas a big thumbs up, I was just noting that even in this religion the “ego is an illusion, therefore ethics are meaningless” trip can still rear its ugly head.

In the Bhagavad Gita however, the problem arises in the text itself. It’s really a pretty monstrous story, and a good example of how potentially bad Dharmic religions can go.

I was contrasting the Gita, which I find problematic, with Buddhism, which I don’t - while also noting that their similarities sometimes lead Buddhism into similar ethical transgressions.