First Breakthrough was Pretty Frightening. Help!

[Pandora]

Memory creates time. A day of amnesia is time travel. The void has nothing to remember about it. So eternity is over before it's even started. All that remains is the knowledge that we were there forever. Still there. Never there.

Wow. This statement resonates with profoundness. And sounds VERY DMT, .

 

[Voidmatrix]

Ima take a risk and only read the OP in sharing my thoughts.

It sounds like in some ways in got "real" for you pretty much immediately.

I’m a fairly pragmatic guy.

Well, that'll probably shift a bit now.

As soon as that happened a fairly unfriendly presence was basically poking fun at me by saying heee’s back! You know this place don’t you! You remember. I thought “ohhh fuck! I’m here again.” I don’t know where ‘here’ is but is was very familiar and more real than real somehow. Let me say this is already by far the strangest thing I’ve ever experienced in my 40 something years.

It continued to goad me saying “and now you remember the joke, don’t you. This is the real place and all that other stuff that’s you ‘life’ is the illusion!.” I recall the words joke and illusion vividly. And I did remember. I remembered that I always for get that this is how things really are and I always go back to ‘life’ to avoid this. This place is lonely. Nothing exists here except me.

Two things: be careful what you believe in hyperspace, despite the magnitude, there be tricksters in these parts. Two, now we have a bit of an ontological conundrum...

“Meaning? What does this mean then?” And more laughing. And all these weird symbols started popping up and dancing around.

What does meaning mean?

I began to fret. I didn’t want all the people and things I care about and love to not be real. I started to try to remember things about my life.

So here I am feeling a lot of existential crisis. How the fuck did my mind produce this.

This thing just grabbed me and dragged me through oblivion. Nothing except me existing? I hate solipsism. It’s such a depressing concept.

Here's the ontological conundrum, or parts of it, such as the problem of other minds.
However, there are so many different kinds of experiences that can be had in hyperspace, that is but one, and some voids in the space are more and less "pleasant" than others.
It may not have purely been a byproduct of your own mind, though it was definitely one of the star players.

This is what I think will help the most. That interpretation of solipsism is a bit mistaken. It's not "the only thing that exists is one's own mind" which entails nothing outside of that exists, but rather, "the only thing that one can be certain of is the existence of one's own mind," which doesn't say that there isn't anything outside the mind, just that no certainty can be had about such.

Can anyone with experience with these kinds of things offer advice?

I've been there a few times in one manner or another. You always come back. And your loved ones will still be here.

One love

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

Just a wild opinion.

In oneness is the eternal and there is no time in eternity. It's when any kind of duality comes into play that time and discomfort begin.

Kind of like having a madman at your throat. That guy is going absolutely bonkers nuts and wants out. That guy needs purpose. What kind of purpose does this duality serve?

The realization that you will exist forever is one that should not frighten or else you may be driven mad or embrace it and find yourself free. I feel that 'The all, the universe, god or whatever you want to call it' is choosing to separate itself from the eternal and we are the result. Blissed out for all of eternity sounds boring. It's sets the drama in motion and watches the madman turn into the guru. Over and over again we go round and sooner or later we all will remember where we came from. It's terrifying and beautiful at the same time.

We remember to forget and forget to remember.

To the OP, that experience sounds awesome, let it settle in for a bit, integrate, and I think that terrifying feeling will fade and awe will remain. You may once again here the call into the void. Personally I think it's pretty cool that we can experience anything like this at all. Thank you for sharing your experience and being open about your feelings about it. Each experience with DMT is different and not always so rough. Give it another go after some time and pay attention to your dosage so you can find the sweet spot. Building a relationship with DMT takes time and it can be much easier to do that if you know how much you are taking and what it does to you. If too intense, dial it back, if too mild, ramp it up.

You made it back to tell the tale and no one will believe you!! Well... I believe you and so do many others. Glad to have you with us my friend! Welcome!

Thank you so much. There are a lot of thoughts and feelings still swirling around. The “you had to fuck around and find out” thing. I now bear the burden of something I had no idea I was going to find. The strangest of secrets. I could go running through the streets shouting about it and wind up in a straight jacket or I could ruminate on it and try to grow into it. I struggle to find analogies. It’s like your parents sitting you down as a 16 year old and telling you Santa Claus is real and you’re thinking “WTF?” and then old Saint Nick himself turns up in front of you and says “deal with it.” and then promptly disappears back to wherever he came from.

It doesn’t feel like it has changed who I am as an identity but I have irreversibly changed from this. Nothing can be the same again. It’s going to be some work to carry this through the day to day. I did ask for it though so I’d better be a big boy and get on with it. The world is still very mysterious but it has a lot more context now. I will go back to DMT at some point but I have a LOT to digest for now.

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

Th

Ima take a risk and only read the OP in sharing my thoughts.

It sounds like in some ways in got "real" for you pretty much immediately.


Well, that'll probably shift a bit now.




Two things: be careful what you believe in hyperspace, despite the magnitude, there be tricksters in these parts. Two, now we have a bit of an ontological conundrum...


What does meaning mean?






Here's the ontological conundrum, or parts of it, such as the problem of other minds.
However, there are so many different kinds of experiences that can be had in hyperspace, that is but one, and some voids in the space are more and less "pleasant" than others.
It may not have purely been a byproduct of your own mind, though it was definitely one of the star players.

This is what I think will help the most. That interpretation of solipsism is a bit mistaken. It's not "the only thing that exists is one's own mind" which entails nothing outside of that exists, but rather, "the only thing that one can be certain of is the existence of one's own mind," which doesn't say that there isn't anything outside the mind, just that no certainty can be had about such.


I've been there a few times in one manner or another. You always come back. And your loved ones will still be here.

One love

ank you for your thoughts and response. Yes, it got real for me immediately. I thought I’d have a bit of a stroll around the amusement park and take it all in before getting on the wildest ride there. Nope. Straight on that ride and I’m afraid of heights.

 

[fink]

Wow. This statement resonates with profoundness. And sounds VERY DMT, .

It may not seem much to anyone, but this feels like one of the kindest compliments anyone has ever given me. Thank you so very much Pandora

 

[Pandora]

I now bear the burden of something I had no idea I was going to find. The strangest of secrets. I could go running through the streets shouting about it and wind up in a straight jacket or I could ruminate on it and try to grow into it. I struggle to find analogies. It’s like your parents sitting you down as a 16 year old and telling you Santa Claus is real and you’re thinking “WTF?” and then old Saint Nick himself turns up in front of you and says “deal with it.” and then promptly disappears back to wherever he came from.

Hehe, yes indeed DMT is the secret that can be told but never known, the secret that can be hidden in plain sight. Way more than sex. Way more than LSD. I could describe it in exquisite detail for years to an avid attendee and still they would not get it until they took that third hit.

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

Hehe, yes indeed DMT is the secret that can be told but never known, the secret that can be hidden in plain sight. Way more than sex. Way more than LSD. I could describe it in exquisite detail for years to an avid attendee and still they would not get it until they took that third hit.

Never a truer word said. Imagine trying to describe an orgasm to someone who’s never experienced one and multiply that by… something. There’s not really a decent context for it. Secret in plain sight for sure. You can have all the philosophical discussions you like but once that thing comes to life right in front of you you have e no real idea.

I’m that person who took just the one hit off an emesh. Why go through the ordeal of three hits when you can get it all in one? Oops… destiny fulfilled.

 

[Pandora]

Hehe I could never get my emesh to work due to vision problems and no one to help. So I'm an old school Glass Vaporgenie gal and sometimes it takes a couple hits to get all the way there, .

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

Hehe I could never get my emesh to work due to vision problems and no one to help. So I'm an old school Glass Vaporgenie gal and sometimes it takes a couple hits to get all the way there, .

Yes, it’s a finicky operation. I took it for a test drive a couple of nights earlier with 20mg. Had that cannon launch sensation for the first time but it was into the fractal motif realm. No ‘entities’ that time as such. Plenty of eyes on me though. That obviously did not prepare be for the breakthrough. Lol

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

One thing that can help when things get scary or rough in hyperspace (IF you still have an I intact) is just to surrender. Just open yourself up, do not resist, take it in, let it happen. The ultimate letting go. I suspect, very good practice for death.

DMT either opens us to a higher dimension OR it shows us that our minds are truly infinite and filled with entire Universes, many of them fully inhabited. Either/both of these is/are authentically astonishing.

That strong deja vu thing in the breakthrough space is very weird indeed. I mean it is palpable. One gets the sense one has been there before at some time, some trip, some space, some life . . . . But I want to reassure you it seems to be part and parcel of a strong DMT experience. It comes with the molecule/drug. So, then it is up to us to interpret, project meaning upon such things.


Again, thank you for this report and I certainly hope you are starting to feel a little better about things.

Hi again Pandora.

Upon consideration it’s starting to make sense that the reason this is as so terrifying was because as I was landing in this place (mind getting inverted at the same time) it was such a strange sensation that I think I tried hitting the pause button in my mind which left part of my ego in play. I don’t think our egos can deal very well with this kind of information. So the completely letting go thing makes sense to me now. It’s not a thing that comes naturally to me in this world either! I have work to do on this.

I also remember another thing about meeting this intelligence and how it felt at the time. It basically said “Surprise. You just stopped tripping. Yep, this is the real place. Have fun with that idea because you're going back to the illusionary world where the real trip is.” This is obviously overwhelming and confusing with a fair bit of anxiety with part of my ego intact.

Yes, I do think we go to this place in some way or form when our physical bodies die. I think that’s why I knew it so well.

Thank you. I think I am starting to feel a little better. Slowly, slowly.

 

[fink]

There is a beautiful spirited man at my work, he stopped taking DMT because on his last trip he was specifically told in plain english 'do not come back here until you're ready to stay'.

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

There is a beautiful spirited man at my work, he stopped taking DMT because on his last trip he was specifically told in plain english 'do not come back here until you're ready to stay'.

I used to read things like this and think “oh, they’ve tripped and taken some kind of abstract allegorical interpretation of something intangible and formed it into this meaning.”

Nope. I was very wrong. It’s quite literal. Something else I wasn’t prepared for and I don’t think you can be prepared.

Then again, my idea of an unsettling trip used to be Joe Rogan getting upset he was getting flipped off by jesters. Lmao.

 

[Tumupasa]

Another thing I need to be honest about. It felt like the thing delivering the message was somehow also myself. It literally feels like the scenario of the lonely god who tricks themself into forgetting who they are to live billions of mundane lives.

If that is true why was I so unkind to myself? This presence was kinda a jerk. A very powerful jerk. It did not behave like myself at all. It behaved in a way I don’t like. This also gives me thoughts of perhaps this is some kind of Abrahamic demonic scenario. This is not a comfortable scenario to me either as I have no religious beliefs, nor did I grow up with any.

Wow that makes so much sense and this is a concept i came across so much times in books.
There is a great book written by Chris Bache, called LSD and Mind of the Universe. In this book Chris tells his learnings after taking 73 heroic doses of LSD during 20 years.
He passes through some very hard stuff to deal with, like being Millions of women living mundane lives, being the protector of his daughter from rapists and figuring out that he also is the rapist, living this cosmic joke you've experienced a dozen times...
He explains that these unbearable experiences have only one purpose, making us better as individuals but also as the whole human race, he believes that all his work (and yours, and mine) have only one purpose: make our species evolve, find its way through all the political, economical and ecological crisis.
This lonely god you're describing, He is us, and He needs to shake us hardly in order for us to recognise Him and contemplate what he has been doing for billion years.

I made a pact with myself that I will need to do this again at some point to confront this fear. I need to be way better prepared.

This is brave, my second experience with ayahuasca was so frightening, 5 hours of pure hell non-sense, being cut in pieces and scattered all around while some freaky entities were performing some surgical stuffs on the pieces of my body. It took me 5 years to integrate that experience and to understand that instead of doing 20 years of therapy without feeling any significant changes in my life, it all happened in 5 hours, and I was renewed.

Take some time, treat your body well, read some good books and time will make its work

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

Wow that makes so much sense and this is a concept i came across so much times in books.
There is a great book written by Chris Bache, called LSD and Mind of the Universe. In this book Chris tells his learnings after taking 73 heroic doses of LSD during 20 years.
He passes through some very hard stuff to deal with, like being Millions of women living mundane lives, being the protector of his daughter from rapists and figuring out that he also is the rapist, living this cosmic joke you've experienced a dozen times...
He explains that these unbearable experiences have only one purpose, making us better as individuals but also as the whole human race, he believes that all his work (and yours, and mine) have only one purpose: make our species evolve, find its way through all the political, economical and ecological crisis.
This lonely god you're describing, He is us, and He needs to shake us hardly in order for us to recognise Him and contemplate what he has been doing for billion years.


This is brave, my second experience with ayahuasca was so frightening, 5 hours of pure hell non-sense, being cut in pieces and scattered all around while some freaky entities were performing some surgical stuffs on the pieces of my body. It took me 5 years to integrate that experience and to understand that instead of doing 20 years of therapy without feeling any significant changes in my life, it all happened in 5 hours, and I was renewed.

Take some time, treat your body well, read some good books and time will make its work

Thank you Tumupasa. I have no idea how long it will take to digest this experience. It feels like a metamorphosis of a kind. Your ayahuasca trip sounds extremely difficult and terrifying.

I don’t quite know how to put it but when I got to this place and my mind was ‘inverted’ for lack of a better word I was both myself and it felt like I was also the entity that was talking to me. I was saying to Pandera that I think I couldn’t quite let go of all of my ego and therefore I caught the experience through the perspective of the ego me and couldn’t interfere. It gave me a big lesson regardless and it was rough! There’s a reason we don’t usually deal with this stuff over here in this realm. I now know that!

 

[Here&Now]

Thanks for responding. It’s nice to know I’m not alone here (irony noted). I thought I bought the bliss ticket. Must have got on the wrong ride. lol. Maybe next time when I get the cajones to go again.

I'm sure you're very well aware of this now, but the DMT experience is stranger than anyone could ever imagine. Before I had done it, I remember thinking it'd be all sweetness, light, angelic beings, etc., but the reality of it transcends human concepts. It's difficult to know what we're even dealing with when we use it. Probably not a bad idea to proceed with caution and explore the sub-breakthrough space, at least for a while. Those heroic doses can give you an infinitely more intense experience than whatever you were expecting.

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

I'm sure you're very well aware of this now, but the DMT experience is stranger than anyone could ever imagine. Before I had done it, I remember thinking it'd be all sweetness, light, angelic beings, etc., but the reality of it transcends human concepts. It's difficult to know what we're even dealing with when we use it. Probably not a bad idea to proceed with caution and explore the sub-breakthrough space, at least for a while. Those heroic doses can give you an infinitely more intense experience than whatever you were expecting.

Yes. 100%. I think I thought I might have some sort of mystical, otherworldly experience that perhaps you could take interpretation to. Or, perhaps there wasn’t really anything there but more fractal tunnels. Or, it’s Terrance MacKenna’s room full of machine levels all wanting to play.

Nope. Something grabbed me. I recognised it as my own mind somehow although somehow seperate from what I know as me. And it fucking told me that my life was the trip. Not what was happening now. Everything is inside out. I thought I was taking a drug to go check out illusions. Nope. I just dipped out of the illusion for a moment and now I’m in the real, reality. It was described as “that’s the joke. Remember? Everything is the opposite!”And it’s not a nice place. It’s oneness in the sense that it’s a lonely hell. And this thing that’s supposed to also be me is a bit of an asshole and kinda crazy. That’s why I always go back to living in a fantasy and choose to forget this place. And it all felt vividly real. I saw where I was landing and thought “ohhh nooo. I’ve just realised what’s happened and now I remember.”

Needless to say I was not prepared at all for this. Everything I loved and cared for was presented to me as a total lie. A lie I had made for myself. And now I was being shipped back knowing this. Obviously that’s quite confusing and distressing. And now, I definitely have something to fear after death and that thing is not that my consciousness evaporates.

The only thing that I can hold onto is that I’ve heard so many positive accounts. Even from near death experiences. I don’t know why I got the awful version of events. It’s probably due to me needing to work on something here. I just wish it wasn’t explained to me as a lie and a joke.

 

[Here&Now]

Yes. 100%. I think I thought I might have some sort of mystical, otherworldly experience that perhaps you could take interpretation to. Or, perhaps there wasn’t really anything there but more fractal tunnels. Or, it’s Terrance MacKenna’s room full of machine levels all wanting to play.

Nope. Something grabbed me. I recognised it as my own mind somehow although somehow seperate from what I know as me. And it fucking told me that my life was the trip. Not what was happening now. Everything is inside out. I thought I was taking a drug to go check out illusions. Nope. I just dipped out of the illusion for a moment and now I’m in the real, reality. It was described as “that’s the joke. Remember? Everything is the opposite!”And it’s not a nice place. It’s oneness in the sense that it’s a lonely hell. And this thing that’s supposed to also be me is a bit of an asshole and kinda crazy. That’s why I always go back to living in a fantasy and choose to forget this place. And it all felt vividly real. I saw where I was landing and thought “ohhh nooo. I’ve just realised what’s happened and now I remember.”

Needless to say I was not prepared at all for this. Everything I loved and cared for was presented to me as a total lie. A lie I had made for myself. And now I was being shipped back knowing this. Obviously that’s quite confusing and distressing. And now, I definitely have something to fear after death and that thing is not that my consciousness evaporates.

The only thing that I can hold onto is that I’ve heard so many positive accounts. Even from near death experiences. I don’t know why I got the awful version of events. It’s probably due to me needing to work on something here. I just wish it wasn’t explained to me as a lie and a joke.

You're pretty good at describing the general vibe for the ludicrous nature of this type of DMT trip. Possibly because it's still so fresh for you. Just reading it is giving me flashbacks of existential horror lol.

In the cosmological map that I use for consciousness and reality, I'd place DMT as a chemical that catapults you into the subtle level of existence. Also corresponding to the subconscious, astral, soul, savikalpa samadhi, etc. It's a mental zone that is approaching the complete oneness of the causal, so the truth of your unified nature with all things becomes more experientially apparent. But there's still a remaining split of subject and object, which itself is actually a lingering illusion. The subtle is prone to limitless varieties of transcendent profundity, from heavenly bliss to horrific nightmares and beyond.

But when you go past the subtle and into the causal, the experience becomes much more consistent and predictable, despite being even more unspeakable. With the full ego death that comes along with the causal, there's no more individual "you" to make a judgment about anything, and reality blossoms in its full unfiltered splendor. This type of experience would be more in alignment with the early stages of near death experiences involving white light and God, as well as the "clear light of the void" described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

Personally, I prefer aiming for the causal these days. I've just had too many disturbing subtle illuminations, and the uncertainty of my next destination is something I've become less willing to tolerate. Though I went through many subtle trips before shifting in this way.

I think this video does a good job describing what it's like.

And also this one for a more positive and less ominous view.

 

[fink]

Spoon, your last post is such an accurate and eloquent description of 'the fear'. I can only reiterate Here&Now, reading it gives me flashbacks of existential dread also.

That utter chaos, the unspeakable insanity.

I've been working really hard to improve myself here in 3D existence for some years now. Leaving no stone unturned, eliminating surprises as best I can.

I believe that the fear of chaotic insanity is an end state of the infuriating oneness. A state that prompts the game here as a means of escape.

I was also once shown the meaning of fractal levels of conciousness. There is absolutely no reason for me to believe that the 'more real' place is the final destination. It seemed to me that the existential crisis would continue in that unlimited chaos world, that we can also 'die' there and move on through infinitely repeating realities. It never, ever ends.

So my next full dose DMT experience, if I find the courage, will focus with a pure intention. To calm the storm of that realm.

I've had about 40 dmt trips in total. I think that might have been a few too many for one frail human mind to intergrate properly in a single lifetime. But I'm a glutton for punishment.

Being constantly better at being the me I was assigned here seems like the best course of action. Kinder, more honest, more selfless, less wasteful, less susceptible to temptations.

The fear can be conquered!

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

You're pretty good at describing the general vibe for the ludicrous nature of this type of DMT trip. Possibly because it's still so fresh for you. Just reading it is giving me flashbacks of existential horror lol.

In the cosmological map that I use for consciousness and reality, I'd place DMT as a chemical that catapults you into the subtle level of existence. Also corresponding to the subconscious, astral, soul, savikalpa samadhi, etc. It's a mental zone that is approaching the complete oneness of the causal, so the truth of your unified nature with all things becomes more experientially apparent. But there's still a remaining split of subject and object, which itself is actually a lingering illusion. The subtle is prone to limitless varieties of transcendent profundity, from heavenly bliss to horrific nightmares and beyond.

But when you go past the subtle and into the causal, the experience becomes much more consistent and predictable, despite being even more unspeakable. With the full ego death that comes along with the causal, there's no more individual "you" to make a judgment about anything, and reality blossoms in its full unfiltered splendor. This type of experience would be more in alignment with the early stages of near death experiences involving white light and God, as well as the "clear light of the void" described in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.

Personally, I prefer aiming for the causal these days. I've just had too many disturbing subtle illuminations, and the uncertainty of my next destination is something I've become less willing to tolerate. Though I went through many subtle trips before shifting in this way.

I think this video does a good job describing what it's like.

And also this one for a more positive and less ominous view.

Oh, thanks so much. I just wanted to say this now as I haven’t had an opportunity to watch the vids yet. I will absolutely do so though.

Some of this experience was ‘vibe’ but some of it felt literal. This thing was talking to me. In English. I can recall a lot of it as a sense of a flow of conversation. It told me the place I was in was the real place. My life was the illusion and that’s the cool trick it has for hiding how things really are. “The joke” as it said. I remember thinking “how the fuck is that a joke?” It was fairly amused at my shock but at the same time just matter of fact about it. And it knew I was realising it was all true. I got a sense it understood my pain and there was some strange sense of sympathy even though it ultimately didn’t care. Kind of like an older sibling giving you a hard lesson.

Another thing I recall before my mind turned inside out was I was flying through ‘hyperspace’ and I saw where I was going. It was this place under me, off to the left of my ‘view’. It was a pinkish white place with blinking lights. Almost like alarm lights or landing lights. *just had to pause. I had a massive sense that I’ve written that before* I knew there was something in this place. I’d say there was an eye looking at me but I can’t confidently recall that. Perhaps because of the mind inversion that happened straight afterwards. When I saw this I got a bad feeling. Like “I don’t think this is going to go well”. I recognise that as trying to hit the pause button on ego death now.

So, this was visceral. Something grabbed me and told me how things are. I remember sentences. Not just impression or feelings. It was so profoundly starling. I am not a person who believes in spiritual things let alone religious type experiences. So, I’m also dealing with what I would describe as ontological shock.

First edit: ok. I’ve watched the first vid. Yes. A lot of familiar feelings and descriptions. The theme of the video was kind of impressions about things though. My experience was more direct. I was told things directly. I’m not sure what to do with that. It plays into what I assumed I might experience. A ‘sense’ of things. An ethereal message. My experience was very direct. Almost like a one on one conversation. I don’t know what to do with this. It feels like I’ve had something maybe nobody else quite has had. It’s scary.

 

[ReverseConcaveSpoon]

Spoon, your last post is such an accurate and eloquent description of 'the fear'. I can only reiterate Here&Now, reading it gives me flashbacks of existential dread also.

That utter chaos, the unspeakable insanity.

I've been working really hard to improve myself here in 3D existence for some years now. Leaving no stone unturned, eliminating surprises as best I can.

I believe that the fear of chaotic insanity is an end state of the infuriating oneness. A state that prompts the game here as a means of escape.

I was also once shown the meaning of fractal levels of conciousness. There is absolutely no reason for me to believe that the 'more real' place is the final destination. It seemed to me that the existential crisis would continue in that unlimited chaos world, that we can also 'die' there and move on through infinitely repeating realities. It never, ever ends.

So my next full dose DMT experience, if I find the courage, will focus with a pure intention. To calm the storm of that realm.

I've had about 40 dmt trips in total. I think that might have been a few too many for one frail human mind to intergrate properly in a single lifetime. But I'm a glutton for punishment.

Being constantly better at being the me I was assigned here seems like the best course of action. Kinder, more honest, more selfless, less wasteful, less susceptible to temptations.

The fear can be conquered!

Hey Fink. Thanks for still reading and responding to me. It really helps. This is hard.

The funny thing is I didn’t get a sense of chaos in there. It was the realisation of the connotations of what I was being told. All the while I was “what is happening here? Why?” I just had no idea it was going to be this.

You’ve been on the other side a lot. This is my first time. You must have had some good experiences to go again.