First Time Pharmahuasca : Bad Trip

[Ra-Horakhty]

My wife and I both took 200mg of Harmala alkaloids followed by 50mg of DMT 30 minutes later.

My wife has a better tolerance to Harmala alkaloids, she found the Harmala dosage perfect, but 50mg of DMT wasn't enough for her compared to when she did mimohuasca using 3g of Syrian Rue and 6g of Mimosa Hostilis.

For me the Harmala dosage was too high. To further clarify, when I take too much Harmala alone, It leads automatically to extreme confusion, fatigue, racing thoughts and a debilitating sense of doom.

When the DMT kicked in it was pulling me out of that state but the DMT dose wasn't enough to fully break through that state, It was like a see saw effect between the effect of Harmala and DMT. I felt the energy raising up through my spine but getting stuck around the neck before falling down back to the bottom of my spine, it was exhausting.

I just went along with it, I kept observing the racing anxious thoughts, I felt tormented, I was in pain all over, the next two following days my spine was hurting so much and my brain was full of unpleasant thoughts about death, the spinal cord pain during the day was so unbearable that I was literally crying. I get the same thing when I take too much Harmala. I had to take 10mg of amphetamine sulfate to calm the brain over-stimulation and ease the spinal cord pain.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm ok, I'm used to situations like this, but for some people, it can be destructive, especially when some people online recommend huge doses of Harmala without realizing that some may be more sensitive than others and could easily lead to unpleasant experiences which can make them thing that the issue is DMT but it was mainly the Harmala dose that was too high.

Next time I'll do 100mg of Harmala alkaloids for a few days to let my body adapt to it before attempting Pharmahuasca again with 100mg of Harmala and 100mg of DMT.

Thanks for reading

 

[blig-blug]

Well, as the specific person that recommended you 200mg harmalas, I'm sorry it went that way. I haven't found that dose of harmalas being too high for anyone else. Ultimately, we advice based on what we know. But the decision is personal and one should take responsibility for it.

However, are you certain the issue was with the harmalas? 50mg DMT is not a low dose at all, in fact I stay usually between 30mg and 40mg, redosing.

I'm curious to see how it will work for you with 100mg harmalas. I think it's very likely you won't get many DMT effects, and they will be very short. But if it's indeed the case that you are very sensitive to harmalas, e.g. maybe you have an unusually low amount of MAO, it may work. Let us know.

There's also the real possibility full doses of harmalas just aren't your thing. They can indeed be confusing in a way that's very different from other psychedelics. And if you add a big DMT dose on top, even more.
*huascas can be very somatic, as you describe with your spine.

That "see-saw" effect you mention is very common with pharmahuasca, you can feel the DMT come in very clear waves. With a plant brew or even the TnT mimosa extract it's different, much more stable. So if you disliked that effect, maybe you could look into those.

My recommendation would be to try again either 200mg harmalas on their own or 150mg if you're very sure it was too much. With no DMT, just to compare.

Honestly, it sounds to me like a "normal" difficult pharma experience, which can indeed be very difficult and somatic, including strong muscle tension that can lead to pain.

I'm ok, I'm used to situations like this,

If you knew those doses affect you negatively in a way you dislike, why did you take it? My recommendation was a general one. You know much more than I do about your sensitivity and preferences. All I knew was that you were planning on taking 100mg harmalas and 100mg DMT. I said that that's too low on the harmalas and too high on the DMT. I stand by it in the general case. Your specific case may be different, but I'm still pretty sure it's likely going to be too low on the harmalas for a full experience.

but for some people, it can be destructive

could easily lead to unpleasant experiences

Yes, both are true for pharmahuasca. It can be destructive and lead to unpleasant experiences. I don't think anyone experienced with it would claim otherwise. If one doesn't want to run that risk, one should abstain from taking it. An effective pharma dose will have that risk in it.

In summary: sorry that happened and I empathize with you, I know that difficult pharma experiences can be very difficult. It may well be that you, in particular, are exceptionally sensitive.
However, I think it's unfair that you lay the responsibility of your dose on "people online" (you can mention me directly, there's no problem). Each one of us is responsible for what one decides to take, and to inform themselves well before taking that decision, looking for multiple sources of information (including your own experience) critically to reach your own conclusion. Making others responsible for it is an obstacle in learning.

Had I known you were taking my recommendation as a prescription, I would just have refused to provide any, as it's not my responsibility, nor I am able or willing to take such a responsibility with someone I don't know and can't assist during the experience.

 

[northape]

My wife and I both took 200mg of Harmala alkaloids followed by 50mg of DMT 30 minutes later.

My wife has a better tolerance to Harmala alkaloids, she found the Harmala dosage perfect, but 50mg of DMT wasn't enough for her compared to when she did mimohuasca using 3g of Syrian Rue and 6g of Mimosa Hostilis.

For me the Harmala dosage was too high. To further clarify, when I take too much Harmala alone, It leads automatically to extreme confusion, fatigue, racing thoughts and a debilitating sense of doom.

First of all, I'm glad that you're fine enough to write about it. That's already not so bad.

When the DMT kicked in it was pulling me out of that state but the DMT dose wasn't enough to fully break through that state, It was like a see saw effect between the effect of Harmala and DMT. I felt the energy raising up through my spine but getting stuck around the neck before falling down back to the bottom of my spine, it was exhausting.

I just went along with it, I kept observing the racing anxious thoughts, I felt tormented, I was in pain all over, the next two following days my spine was hurting so much and my brain was full of unpleasant thoughts about death, the spinal cord pain during the day was so unbearable that I was literally crying. I get the same thing when I take too much Harmala. I had to take 10mg of amphetamine sulfate to calm the brain over-stimulation and ease the spinal cord pain.

I had quite a few similar situations, and would just redose mimosa tea to break through it. Like you can take 3g (of mimosa tea) as your main dose and depending on the situation add 2g more if needed. So my 2nd dose was always prepared and close by just in case. This medicine wants to cleanse and realign you, but depending on the issue it may need some extra force to do it. Ayahuasca is similar that way, and you'd need to redose if you're stuck in some kind of threshold state.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm ok, I'm used to situations like this, but for some people, it can be destructive, especially when some people online recommend huge doses of Harmala without realizing that some may be more sensitive than others and could easily lead to unpleasant experiences which can make them thing that the issue is DMT but it was mainly the Harmala dose that was too high.

Next time I'll do 100mg of Harmala alkaloids for a few days to let my body adapt to it before attempting Pharmahuasca again with 100mg of Harmala and 100mg of DMT.

Thanks for reading

First of all, try rue extract on its own starting from 100mg and going up to 200mg - that's basically just 3 sessions. I feel that you have something going on and it will clear given time. 200mg is not that much, so most likely everything went as intended. I wouldn't go lower than 150mg for your dmt sessions, no matter your sensitivity, but sure do experiment first.

Maybe working with teas would be better for you. You can easily redose and it's usually more digestible than pure extracts. Once again, to my ears it feels like some blockage, be it physical or mental. That's not how harmalas feel. They should be calming and relaxing instead. Rue will balance you over time if you give it a chance, but it can be unpleasant. I was feeling very bad on it in the beginning and even went to ER once the morning after my rue session. Sure enough, it was all in my head. This medicine is all about health, so whatever it wants to push out of you should be gone in my opinion.

You know about your situation, so go slowly. Create a plan of work, choose which plants or extracts you need, and proceed. You'll be glad you did. Don't mix anything with rue, apart from dmt. It's just too unpredictable, especially given your condition.

I think it's unfair that you lay the responsibility of your dose on "people online" (you can mention me directly, there's no problem)

I doubt that he meant you, because I advised 200mg too and would stick to it even now.

 

[blig-blug]

I doubt that he meant you, because I advised 200mg too and would stick to it even now

Weren't you in chat at that moment, too?

I know many more people would have advised that, and maybe did. I did for sure.

 

[Ra-Horakhty]

Oh no. There’s a big misunderstanding @blig-blug. I wasn’t referring to you at all, if the thread was aimed toward you I wouldn't make it in the first place and just send you a direct message.

When I took 200mg I was fully aware of the risk it represented for me and I'm fully responsible for what happened. It was more of a warning/informative thread to make people aware of how intense pharmahuasca can be compared to other things including ayahuasca/mimohuasca since hardly anyone talks about it, the experience wasn't difficult, just physically painful and unpleasant which I didn't expect.

When I mentioned people online recommending high doses of Harmala, I wasn't thinking of you at all, and it really hurts my heart to see that you felt that it was aimed at you.

What I meant was that with a little bit of research you can easily find people recommending doses way higher than 200mg of harmala alkaloids or doses of Syrian Rue higher than 4-5g, when in fact 200mg of harmala alkaloids or 3g of well brewed Syrian Rue is more than enough and can already be overwhelming for sensitive individuals.

Just the other day on the chat, devpsyche was planning to try 5g of Syrian Rue, Luckily, there were Espurrr and Northape who insisted that it was a high dose and that starting with a lower dose is more appropriate, especially for someone that never tried Syrian Rue.

Let’s not beat about the bush, there are people on the forum who talk about doses up to 12g of Syrian Rue as if it was completely normal without precising that they have a better tolerance and that it's not the case for everyone, or even advising combining Rue with huge doses of certain supplements like Methyl-Folate, Methyl-Cobalamin or P5P promising DMT like experience without talking about the risks of such combination possibly leading to an hypertensive crisis in people that are really sensitive to methyl donors for example or the neurological risk of high doses of vitamin B6 in individual that have an impaired enzyme function when it comes to processing it which can lead to B6 toxicity.

 

[universecannon]

I'm sorry to hear that happened. 200mg harmalas is way too much for me. I don't go over 100-150mg and even that can be incapacitating. I need maybe 30mg DMT max. I found more oral DMT made the experience too stimulating to fall into visionary trances or get anything useful out of it. Those doses are not the norm but it's not unheard of, and this is why it's good to start low and work your way up. I eventually decided pharma wasn't very useful for me compared to just smoking dmt on top of oral harmalas, rue, or caapi.

The neck pain is concerning. Were you in an awkward position that might have hurt it?

 

[northape]

What I meant was that with a little bit of research you can easily find people recommending doses way higher than 200mg of harmala alkaloids or doses of Syrian Rue higher than 4-5g, when in fact 200mg of harmala alkaloids or 3g of well brewed Syrian Rue is more than enough and can already be overwhelming for sensitive individuals.

Most of the oldies here would never advise anything above 5g. We always emphasize a slow and steady approach. You can read a fine thread about mimosa and @blig-blug 's journey with it. It has answers to most of the questions, but people want it all on a personal plate. I don't mean you, but it's a trend with most newcomers. It's like the search option simply doesn't exist

I've been thinking about your situation and have a hunch. Take it with a truckload of salt because I'm not a doctor:
First, read up on beta-carbolines. Some forms are naturally present in the body, so it's not a novel substance to you. Your system knows how to work with them to a degree. For instance, when you get the flu, beta-carboline production spikes, so it has some function in the body. Even after a strong rue session, you get an immune response.

If you're on some medication or supplement, then that's most likely the issue. Try working with rue some more. If nothing improves, I'd take it as a hint. Maybe it would be good to research your family line for any chronic diseases. You could get full bloodwork done too and see what's up. What I'm trying to say is there may be an underlying condition that gets highlighted, like an early stage of an autoimmune disorder, for example. Don't get scared or anything; it's just an idea that came to me. Most likely there is no substance to it at all

Pure rue tea has an opioid-like effect btw, and you should feel less pain for a few days after use. That's how the guy who takes insane doses could run for hours. There is no mystery here.

Stay safe and healthy

 

[blig-blug]

When I mentioned people online recommending high doses of Harmala, I wasn't thinking of you at all, and it really hurts my heart to see that you felt that it was aimed at you.

Don't worry, it's not a big deal one way or the other. As we talked about it and I recommended 200mg, I thought I may at least be one of the people online. Either way it doesn't matter much to me, but I meant that you should let me know clearly if that was the case. If you don't think that's the case, no problem.
It's nothing personal, I just thought you were saying that your experience was due to other people's advice, and I thought that was not a very good attitude. And, as I recommended that dose, I wanted to explain why I don't think it's dangerous. But it seems to have been a misunderstanding on my part.

What I meant was that with a little bit of research you can easily find people recommending doses way higher than 200mg of harmala alkaloids or doses of Syrian Rue higher than 4-5g, when in fact 200mg of harmala alkaloids or 3g of well brewed Syrian Rue is more than enough and can already be overwhelming for sensitive individuals.

Yes, 200mg is a pretty solid dose, not a low dose at all. The problem with pharma is that if you don't fully inhibit MAO, the experience is basically nothing remarkable. But there's variation in what dose it takes to inhibit MAO. I don't think 200mg is dangerous to anyone, but it can be the case that it's more than desirable. In my case I need a bit above it.

My general recommendation when approaching harmalas would be to start lower and progressively work your way up, precisely to avoid taking too much. I have some logs around from when I was getting started and that's what I did. But if someone wants to jump into an experience that will be effective without trying first, my usual recommendation is 200mg harmalas and 30mg DMT, with the possibility of redosing. Maybe more DMT if the person is very experienced with psychedelics. The core issue is that it's best to gradually work your way up. But not everyone is either willing to or has enough time or opportunities to do it that way.

Let’s not beat about the bush, there are people on the forum who talk about doses up to 12g of Syrian Rue as if it was completely normal without precising that they have a better tolerance and that it's not the case for everyone

Yes, I completely agree. Those doses are very high. Bear in mind that 12g syrian rue will easily contain 600mg harmalas. If properly ingested you can get inside you more than 400mg easily. That's very different and potentially dangerous for someone without experience or tolerance.

physically painful and unpleasant which I didn't expect

Yeah, it can be like that. I don't think it's a good idea to reach the point where it's too overwhelming, so it's a good idea for you to try again (if you want to try again at all) either without DMT or with less harmalas. If you have the opportunity to work your way up, you could start at 100mg harmalas + 50mg DMT as you said (or even less DMT), and in the very likely case the experience is lackluster, try again another time with, say, 130mg harmalas. And so on, until you reach your sweet spot.

The neck pain is concerning

I think the most likely explanation for that pain is strong muscular tension. Something similar has happened to me several times, in my case with neck and face muscles, to the point it seemed that my right eye was being ripped off my face. In my case I've concluded it's a physical expression of some mental aspects. I think it's likely you will encounter that pain again, but the dose should be so that it doesn't overwhelm you or become the sole center of the experience, IMO.

Some examples from my own experiences. I consider this to be normal somatic reactions. Of course, it's always a good idea to be careful and look for alternative possibilities and explanations.

Later, I noticed that there was a lot of tension in my right side neck muscles. I think that may have been the cause of the neck sensations, as lately some neck tension was apparently causing me pain in my right eye. It's interesting to me that I don't see well from my right eye (and haven't since I was a child).

Then, something unexpected happened: pain in my right eye going down my right shoulder and a bit of my arm, as if my shoulder were twisted. A feeling that I was dying. This was exactly the same as log XIII and a few others in June and July, although not as strong, probably due to the relatively low dose

I was feeling extremely hot and removed most of my clothes. I could feel an intense pain in my eye and neck, going down my arm. But it wasn't only the pain: there was a struggle, a sense that I was going to die, that was it, that was the end, I'm dying. Struggle to stay alive and physical agony. The overwhelming heat, and immense difficulty breathing.

 

[Ra-Horakhty]

I had quite a few similar situations, and would just redose mimosa tea to break through it. Like you can take 3g (of mimosa tea) as your main dose and depending on the situation add 2g more if needed. So my 2nd dose was always prepared and close by just in case. This medicine wants to cleanse and realign you, but depending on the issue it may need some extra force to do it. Ayahuasca is similar that way, and you'd need to redose if you're stuck in some kind of threshold state.

That's exactly what I felt, before the trip, I was planning to take a second dose of DMT an hour or two after the first one, but I was feeling so exhausted and lethargic that I decided to leave it for the next time.

Once again, to my ears it feels like some blockage, be it physical or mental.

It is, during the first part of the trip, I was shaking and breathing and felt a lot of things were coming out, but at a certain moment it felt like there wasn't enough energy to process the rest.

You can read a fine thread about mimosa and @blig-blug 's journey with it.

It was actually one of the first thread I've read when I joined the forum, which led my wife to have a beautiful mimohuasca experience

First, read up on beta-carbolines. Some forms are naturally present in the body, so it's not a novel substance to you. Your system knows how to work with them to a degree. For instance, when you get the flu, beta-carboline production spikes, so it has some function in the body. Even after a strong rue session, you get an immune response.

If you're on some medication or supplement, then that's most likely the issue. Try working with rue some more. If nothing improves, I'd take it as a hint from the rue. Maybe it would be good to research your family line for any chronic diseases. You could get full bloodwork done too and see what's up. What I'm trying to say is there may be an underlying condition that gets highlighted, like an early stage of an autoimmune disorder, for example. Don't get scared or anything; it's just an idea that came to me. Most likely there is no substance to it at all

I didn't know that the body was able to produce beta-carboline, thanks for the information.

At this moment, I don't take any medication or supplement, I've done genetic tests in the past as well as advanced tests including blood tests and organic acid test and it seems like my body struggles a lot when it comes to pain regulation and mono-amines production/release/transport. I've been sensitive to physical pain from a young age and it got worse with time, actually, I experience a lot of physical pain on a daily basis and I just deal with it. I've tried many pain medications, they either build a tolerance quickly, interact with psychedelics, have a high risk of physical dependence/addiction or have a lot of side effects, and things like low dose naltrexone and Iboga are out of reach for the moment.

Pure rue tea has an opioid effect btw, and you should feel less pain for a few days after use.

That's what I noticed too after a few days on Syrian Rue a few weeks ago and to my surprise the alkaloids are very similar to those found in Iboga.

I'm sorry to hear that happened. 200mg harmalas is way too much for me. I don't go over 100-150mg and even that can be incapacitating. I need maybe 30mg DMT max. I found more oral DMT made the experience too stimulating to fall into visionary trances or get anything useful out of it. Those doses are not the norm but it's not unheard of, and this is why it's good to start low and work your way up. I eventually decided pharma wasn't very useful for me compared to just smoking dmt on top of oral harmalas, rue, or caapi.

Thanks for your insight, and yes it was very stimulating, we decided my wife and I to try smoking a little bit of DMT to see how it is by itself.

The neck pain is concerning. Were you in an awkward position that might have hurt it?

Not at all, I was lying flat on the ground, it felt like pharmahuasca woke up some dormant pain.

 

[northape]

At this moment, I don't take any medication or supplement, I've done genetic tests in the past as well as advanced tests including blood tests and organic acid test and it seems like my body struggles a lot when it comes to pain regulation and mono-amines production/release/transport. I've been sensitive to physical pain from a young age and it got worse with time, actually, I experience a lot of physical pain on a daily basis and I just deal with it. I've tried many pain medications, they either build a tolerance quickly, interact with psychedelics, have a high risk of physical dependence/addiction or have a lot of side effects, and things like low dose naltrexone and Iboga are out of reach for the moment.

Oh, sorry to hear about that. It sounds like you have a special kind of constitution, and it may play a role. Go slowly and see what works, then. I'd go for teas actually, but I'm biased. Tea does give a pain suppression that I don't remember from taking extracts. Who knows what's right for you in the end. Keep us updated on how it goes for you.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Try taking the DMT an hour into the Harmalas, that for me is the best time, it kicks in much more effectively that way. Also, from my understanding good Mimosa can be approx 100mgs of DMT in 5 grams of Mimosa (approx 20mgs per gram of Mimosa root), and i personally have found that dosage to be more fully immersive, 3 grams of Mimosa (approx 60mgs of DMT) can pack a punch though and is strong in it's own right but it's not as immersive as 5 grams of Mimosa is. Lastly, you can try dissolving the DMT into something acidic, and sip the liquid for 10 minutes to have it kick in smoothly if you should want it to, otherwise if you drink it all down quickly (or if you take DMT encapsulated or something) it'll hit all at once and be very intense, sipping for 10 minutes is ime a better way to have it kick in, but may require a little more on the dosage since it'll be a little gentler overall.

Also as far as Harmala dosage goes, some people can be higher or lower in CYP2D6 which metabolizes the Harmalas, you may be a bit lower in CYP2D6 and may need a bit less Harmalas, or if you've taken Harmalas somewhat regularly you may have the Harmala reverse tolerance in effect which can make Harmalas stronger and so a reduced dosage will be as strong as a higher dosage is for someone without the reverse tolerance in effect. But in general, i myself use 200mgs for a strong dose, while i tend to prefer 180 to 185mgs which is strong but moderately strong imo, not as heavy as 200mgs, though 100 to 150mgs might suit you better.

 

[Sabnock1990]

or even advising combining Rue with huge doses of certain supplements like Methyl-Folate, Methyl-Cobalamin or P5P promising DMT like experience without talking about the risks of such combination possibly leading to an hypertensive crisis in people that are really sensitive to methyl donors for example or the neurological risk of high doses of vitamin B6 in individual that have an impaired enzyme function when it comes to processing it which can lead to B6 toxicity.

Ime, there are no particular risks when it comes to the B vitamin+Tryptophan+Harmalas/MAO-A inhibition thing, i'm the one who started talking about it because yes it will actually produce endogenous Tryptamine, NMT and DMT if done right.

As far as B6 goes, the risks with B6 is mainly moreso to do with Pyridoxine because at higher dosages it can inhibit P5P-utilizing enzymes and can cause paradoxical B6 deficiency symptoms, the P5P form of B6 however i've gone up to 100 to 200 up to 400mgs a day and i haven't noticed any issue with it other than the fact that it is needed by the SHMT enzyme which lets Tetrahydrofolate into the Folate cycle, as such, higher dosages of P5P can increase the amount of Folate going into the Folate cycle which can then turn into a greater amount of Methylfolate which can then use up more B12 potentially reducing B12 too much in people who may already have a deficiency, and the neuropathy that too much B6 is said to cause is actually because of there being too much Folate going into the Folate cycle which can not only use up B12 but also Potassium and ime it's the lack of Potassium that is the real cause behind the neuropathy. So ime, the only negative i've experienced from P5P is the increase in Folate through the cycle using up either a lot of B12 or a lot of Potassium, likely the Potassium since ime/for me personally Potassium is what does away with the neuropathy i experience, other than that though i haven't noticed any issue from the P5P form of B6. In general though i recommend sticking to 25mgs or less of P5P B6, that seems like plenty for daily consumption, and that's what i'm currently taking, but i haven't really had any complaints for myself personally from up to 200mgs of P5P a day. And while i realize people are different, i'm very experienced with these nutrients and i don't think they are particularly risky, just misunderstood.

As far as Methylfolate/Folate goes, i generally don't recommend more than 400 to 600mcgs per day, that's already plenty ime, and that's generally the only real issue i've noticed is consuming too much Folate can cause some side-effects particularly if you have a lack of B12, whereas if you are good in B12 you can tolerate Folate a lot better. Folate is the methyl donor, so if you don't take as much Folate you won't get "overmethylated" (though i'm not sure such a thing actually exists, because the body has mechanisms in place to prevent runaway methylation, in fact it is said that high SAM levels allosterically inhibit the MTHFR enzyme to reduce it's activity to reduce Methylfolate production since SAM levels are high Methylfolate isn't needed for methylation). The issue with Folate is that excess Folate consumption can reduce/use up B12 over time and can cause B12 deficiency if enough B12 isn't consumed regularly, and so Methylfolate levels can build up via the methyl trap thing because of a lack of B12 which is needed to utilize/recycle the Methylfolate, and so Methylfolate just sits there causing side-effects, if you experience Methylfolate-related side-effects though, just take some B12 and those side-effects will go away, but when B12 is consumed (at least of the Methylcobalamin form) the B12 will recycle Methylfolate back into the Folate cycle and as it goes back through the Folate cycle it will become more Methylfolate which will then need more B12 to be properly utilized/recycled and it's that second wave of Methylfolate that can use up a lot of B12 if you're low in B12, and that's generally what seems to cause most of the side-effects people experience from taking B12, they assume it's the B12 because it happens when B12 is consumed but it's really not enough B12 and the build up of Methylfolate which is the real issue, so more B12 helps, and keeping the Folate to a minimum helps. Some people may even need as little as 100 to 200mcgs a day of Folate, depending, especially if they can't tolerate Folate well yet, which then the focus becomes on correcting B12 deficiency and then more Folate will become tolerable.

As far as B12 goes, there's no real risk with higher B12 dosages, in fact, with a 1mg B12 injection you're getting a full 1mg of B12 into the system, when you consume 1mg of oral B12 you're only getting approx 10mcgs of absorbed B12 through passive digestion, i take 10mgs of oral B12 on the daily which gives me approx 100mcgs of absorbed B12 per day, i've gone up as high as 100 to 120mgs which would give me approx 1mg to 1.2mgs of absorbed B12 (similarly to if i were to get a 1mg injection). They even inject ultra high dosages of Methylcobalamin in Japan for ALS at doses of 25 to 50mgs injected, that means they get a full 25 to 50mgs of B12 straight into the system, with overall good safety. Ime you can't have too much B12, you can have too much Folate, though, so if you should be cautious with anything, it's the Folate ime. B12 and B6 on the other hand, haven't been nearly as much of an issue as too much Folate. It's also my understanding that in some cases people are given up to 5 to 10 grams or so of Hydroxocobalamin through IV for treatment of Cyanide poisoning, iirc, that's 5 to 10 grams dawg, now i'm not saying people should take 5 to 10 grams lol, but people can safely consume much more B12 than they may think.

Also i will say, this is why i recommend correcting any deficiencies first, before trying the endogenous Tryptamine thing, not only will deficiencies get in the way of endogenous Tryptamines, but it could also cause problems if you start taking higher dosages of things, like if one is already low in B12 for example, you're adding fuel to the fire by taking high B6 or Folate dosages, for example, or if you're already low in Potassium or Magnesium (since they're needed by Methionine Adenosyltransferase to turn Methionine into SAM), or if you're already low in Zinc (since it's needed by Methionine Synthase for it's proper function so it can utilize B12 and Methylfolate for Methylcobalamin formation and Homocysteine recycling to Methionine). Also need Riboflavin and Niacin to some degree for MTHFR and Methionine Synthase Reductase (which also uses SAM to remethylate oxidized B12 back to Methylcobalamin for resuming Methionine Synthase activity). So long as you have all the bases covered though and don't have an active deficiency, then not only will you be able to get the endogenous Tryptamines, but you also won't have an issue or risk with the B vitamin supplementation and higher dosages (again though, being mindful of Folate).

 

[Sabnock1990]

I also would like to add that i personally don't recommend excessive Harmala/Rue dosages, i understand how strong/powerful Harmalas/Rue can be, i generally don't recommend more than 4 grams of Rue max or more than 200mgs of Harmalas, as that ime seems plenty effective and plenty strong enough. Some people may need or get something out of higher dosages than that though, especially if one has higher amounts of CYP2D6 that could necessitate higher dosages of Harmalas and might give better tolerability to higher dosages of Rue, however, that is an exception, not the norm, and i don't recommend anyone take more than the recommend amounts of Harmalas/Rue until they are more familiar with it and preferably have gotten their body used to it with regular consumption so that the side-effects will go away for the most part which then makes higher dosages more tolerable in general.

 

[Sabnock1990]

That's exactly what I felt, before the trip, I was planning to take a second dose of DMT an hour or two after the first one, but I was feeling so exhausted and lethargic that I decided to leave it for the next time.

That's what I noticed too after a few days on Syrian Rue a few weeks ago and to my surprise the alkaloids are very similar to those found in Iboga.

Also want to mention that redosing DMT often requires redosing of extra Harmalas, because the gut's MAO-A inhibition starts dying down around an hour and a half into the Harmalas ime, and by 2 full hours into the Harmalas gut MAO-A goes completely back to normal and as such any DMT consumed at that point would be instantly broken down, thus necessitating redosing of the Harmalas as well for more gut MAO-A inhibition. The better way to do it ime is to just sip on DMT until you get enough in you, kinda like Alcohol if you sip on it you can feel it build up in the body and then you can stop when you reach a point where it feels like it's strong enough, like you won't feel the main effect of the DMT yet but you'll feel the build up and can more easily guesstimate when you've consumed enough. I highly recommend sipping the dose of DMT for 10 minutes though, it's a much smoother onset. And remember, take the DMT an hour into the Harmalas, for maximum effectiveness.

It's also worth mentioning that using full spectrum Rue extract vs Manske'd Harmala extract, or using the Rue seed itself (tea or capsules) can provide a more enjoyable experience or comfortable experience or other properties that contribute compared to straight/isolated Harmalas, Rue by far feels better compared to isolated Harmalas and may give you a more physically relaxing experience compared to pure Harmala extract.