HELLO!! I was wondering, if you take a double dose of syrian rue (stardard dose being 3g), does that make the visuals more intense, or does it not really have any effect? Is it like, once there is mao inhibition, taking more maoi is just overkill?
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For oral dmt, do visuals increase with greater quantities of maoi?
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embracethevoid
Rising Star
If you are of average weight and sensitivity, then 3g of rue is the threshold between which harmala is saturated in the gut then starts hitting the brain hardcore. 6g is thus like taking 3g of rue straight to the brain + 3g to the gut, and this WILL floor you.
It prolongs the experience vastly and it does intensify it but stops visual intensification very fast as you increase the dose, rather you feel an intensity in your body which can be very uncomfortable on high doses. It also prolongs the tracer effect. Rue tracers are absolutely amazing, combined with the spice it feels like you're playing the Crysis trailer in real life.
There is a distinct increase in paranoia/vulnerability as one ups the rue dosage. It is recommended that you time rue doses apart so you do not get overwhelmed (I can take 0-80g of MHRB but more than 5g of rue will floor me irrespective of how badass I think I am).
Rue = overall length & intensity of experience, spice = intensity of visuals and sensations. If you imagine the dosage-response graph over time, rue would stretch the graph horizontally and slightly vertically, and the spice dosage will amplify the peaks and troughs of each wave it hits and increase the lower limit of the troughs.
Judging by your past report, I recommend you do this - take a normal dose (not 450mg, hehe) and then wait till you feel comfortable tripping, in a very happy mood. Then make sure you are in a comfortable setting (ideally, home alone or with 1 clued in sober sitter) and then dose again, MAOI and spice, some 3-4 hours in. Within 1 hour you will be in a +4 state and ego dissolution will commence.
This essentially results in a 12-18 hour peak experience and it's very easy to handle IF and ONLY if you can make sure you don't spiral out into psychosis. At that dosage, your entire consciousness is amplified beyond measure and all the individual little thoughts will command much more power (the best thing to do is meditate and not think, just dissolve into the universe).
It prolongs the experience vastly and it does intensify it but stops visual intensification very fast as you increase the dose, rather you feel an intensity in your body which can be very uncomfortable on high doses. It also prolongs the tracer effect. Rue tracers are absolutely amazing, combined with the spice it feels like you're playing the Crysis trailer in real life.
There is a distinct increase in paranoia/vulnerability as one ups the rue dosage. It is recommended that you time rue doses apart so you do not get overwhelmed (I can take 0-80g of MHRB but more than 5g of rue will floor me irrespective of how badass I think I am).
Rue = overall length & intensity of experience, spice = intensity of visuals and sensations. If you imagine the dosage-response graph over time, rue would stretch the graph horizontally and slightly vertically, and the spice dosage will amplify the peaks and troughs of each wave it hits and increase the lower limit of the troughs.
Judging by your past report, I recommend you do this - take a normal dose (not 450mg, hehe) and then wait till you feel comfortable tripping, in a very happy mood. Then make sure you are in a comfortable setting (ideally, home alone or with 1 clued in sober sitter) and then dose again, MAOI and spice, some 3-4 hours in. Within 1 hour you will be in a +4 state and ego dissolution will commence.
This essentially results in a 12-18 hour peak experience and it's very easy to handle IF and ONLY if you can make sure you don't spiral out into psychosis. At that dosage, your entire consciousness is amplified beyond measure and all the individual little thoughts will command much more power (the best thing to do is meditate and not think, just dissolve into the universe).
yep, that much rue will make for a very uncomfortable trip.. If you want stronger experience, increase dmt amount by maybe 50% (or any reasonable amount you think fits your case) if your last journey wasnt deep enough.
embracethevoid
Rising Star
There is a threshold past which increasing DMT will not increase intensity of trip (saturation of 5HT receptors I believe). So if you want a long intense experience, you need constant saturation of the receptors. It's very difficult to handle this state, keep that in mind, being a badass doesn't work against DMT because like light, the light of DMT is always faster and more badass than you.
embracethevoid said:
Source please? Where did you ever read any number of a saturation point for dmt?
embracethevoid
Rising Star
endlessness said:
No source involved, experience and what I know rather than any source (hence why I said "I believe" only). There is an upper limit to how high you can get which I know from taking obscene doses in the past. Beyond this you pretty much blackout.
You said "I believe" only in the saturation of receptors explanation, not on the saturation threshold affirmation.
Btw, are you talking about oral use or smoked use? Because it seems to me you are talking about vaporized but this is an oral dmt thread. Just wanting to understand better what you are saying.
From my experience with oral dmt, I have not found an upper limit of saturation and I have no desire to pursue it. I feel it starts becoming too intense and unnecessary to raise the dosage quite before any sign of saturation happens. I have also never read anything similar, and strasmann's IV researches with higher doses didnt seem to imply anything of the sort up to the higher dosages tested, which seemed to already be 'too much' for the volunters. Its obvious, though, that at some point it gets SO weird that its just impossible to compare the trips in quantitative strenght terms. But this is not the same as affirming there is a saturation being reached.
With vaporized dmt, it does happen that if one vaporizes too much, its so intense that its hard to bring anything back, one might remember a bit of the come up, some small flashes of the middle and the comedown "omg im me, what just happened?!" kind of thing.
Just to clarify, im not saying that absolutely there isnt a saturation point. Just that I've never seen indication of it happening anywhere near the dosages taken usually, and that the higher dosages seem to be limited much more by what people seem to be able to integrate psychologically and find useful, than by a hypothetical physical effect of receptor saturation that no matter how much more people take they dont get more effects. In other words, I've never seen and cant imagine anybody ever going like "oh man I keep taking more and more and I dont get where I want" with dmt. Hyperspace ass-kicking and dmt-imposed self-humbling would come way before
Btw, are you talking about oral use or smoked use? Because it seems to me you are talking about vaporized but this is an oral dmt thread. Just wanting to understand better what you are saying.
From my experience with oral dmt, I have not found an upper limit of saturation and I have no desire to pursue it. I feel it starts becoming too intense and unnecessary to raise the dosage quite before any sign of saturation happens. I have also never read anything similar, and strasmann's IV researches with higher doses didnt seem to imply anything of the sort up to the higher dosages tested, which seemed to already be 'too much' for the volunters. Its obvious, though, that at some point it gets SO weird that its just impossible to compare the trips in quantitative strenght terms. But this is not the same as affirming there is a saturation being reached.
With vaporized dmt, it does happen that if one vaporizes too much, its so intense that its hard to bring anything back, one might remember a bit of the come up, some small flashes of the middle and the comedown "omg im me, what just happened?!" kind of thing.
Just to clarify, im not saying that absolutely there isnt a saturation point. Just that I've never seen indication of it happening anywhere near the dosages taken usually, and that the higher dosages seem to be limited much more by what people seem to be able to integrate psychologically and find useful, than by a hypothetical physical effect of receptor saturation that no matter how much more people take they dont get more effects. In other words, I've never seen and cant imagine anybody ever going like "oh man I keep taking more and more and I dont get where I want" with dmt. Hyperspace ass-kicking and dmt-imposed self-humbling would come way before
I notice that some members use “+4” as a measure of trip intensity. This is not an appropriate use of +4 on the Shulgin scale.embracethevoid said:
Take a look:
Shulgin Rating Scale
embracethevoid
Rising Star
I've pushed the boundaries when I first started experimenting. I have had DMT kick my ass so many times that I no longer really have an ass. I am talking about oral DMT; the strongest evidence I find for a saturation point is that this one time (of many), me and my friend decided to redose 6-10 hours into a +3 experience, chugging a brew freshly cooked during those hours (after MAOI). It was the sweetest brew I have ever made. We gargled the stuff, I estimate 40g the 2nd time I dosed and 20g of MHRB the first time. I then dosed again, another 20g. I did not get any higher past a certain point. However that does not mean that saturation was achieved, simply that I did not get any higher. On a separate occasion I accidentally ingested 80g of brew (I felt what was about to come before I got halfway through the shot; visuals began within 5 seconds of ingestion) and the comeup showed me that indeed, it is possible to get higher (closed eyes = blinding white light that was very "stringy", body feeling = unearthly & insane beyond belief body rush that completely took over my reality as if I popped 5g of MDMA and survived then proceeded to smoke meth & crack, open eyes = no visuals :s). However this later dropped into a normal "saturation point" experience and stayed like so for 6 hours (I did not redose).
This is not with weak MHRB either, I started off getting annihilated by 3g of this stuff and it was only a long while later when I fully learnt the ins and outs of the DMT space and learnt how to stop spiralling into psychosis that I could venture this far. The effects of this routine high-dose high-frequency usage has left its mark on my brain, now when I dose up I know exactly what visuals I will see, it's like DMT is seeping through ancient carved tributaries in my brain (and I would say this is a fitting analogy considering how neurons operate).
As for the Shulgin rating scale, either after all this time I have never had a +4 or I damn well know a +4 state when I feel it. A +4, I would consider to be a powerful feeling of complete bodily dissolution into the universe and all the associated effects including profound time dilation, incredible amplification of the senses, complete synaesthesia, a sensation that the experience is eternal and will be the default state for the duration of one's life and going batshit loopy. All of these effects show themselves when a "saturation point" dose is ingested, typically using the two stage method described prior. Given this definition, I have +4ed at least 30 times. The interesting thing is that you do not choose the +4 state but rather, the +4 chooses you, many times I have dosed obscenely and never attained a +4 and other times I have dosed "low" and been sucked straight into the void.
Recently I attained what I consider to be a +5, akin to a wide awake k-hole type experience even beyond the +4's complete ego dissolution/unity/interconnectedness/transcendental bliss. Maybe this is what Shulgin describes as a +4 however. It is basically living death, complete blankness, the bliss of a +4 is not here but rather there is an unearthly divine sense of calm. I slipped in and out of this, dropping to a +4 then back. I felt completely open to the spirit world in this state.
The lessons gained from these insane experiences are identical to those of low doses so don't think you are missing out. Love, love, love, nothing more, nothing less.
This is not with weak MHRB either, I started off getting annihilated by 3g of this stuff and it was only a long while later when I fully learnt the ins and outs of the DMT space and learnt how to stop spiralling into psychosis that I could venture this far. The effects of this routine high-dose high-frequency usage has left its mark on my brain, now when I dose up I know exactly what visuals I will see, it's like DMT is seeping through ancient carved tributaries in my brain (and I would say this is a fitting analogy considering how neurons operate).
As for the Shulgin rating scale, either after all this time I have never had a +4 or I damn well know a +4 state when I feel it. A +4, I would consider to be a powerful feeling of complete bodily dissolution into the universe and all the associated effects including profound time dilation, incredible amplification of the senses, complete synaesthesia, a sensation that the experience is eternal and will be the default state for the duration of one's life and going batshit loopy. All of these effects show themselves when a "saturation point" dose is ingested, typically using the two stage method described prior. Given this definition, I have +4ed at least 30 times. The interesting thing is that you do not choose the +4 state but rather, the +4 chooses you, many times I have dosed obscenely and never attained a +4 and other times I have dosed "low" and been sucked straight into the void.
Recently I attained what I consider to be a +5, akin to a wide awake k-hole type experience even beyond the +4's complete ego dissolution/unity/interconnectedness/transcendental bliss. Maybe this is what Shulgin describes as a +4 however. It is basically living death, complete blankness, the bliss of a +4 is not here but rather there is an unearthly divine sense of calm. I slipped in and out of this, dropping to a +4 then back. I felt completely open to the spirit world in this state.
The lessons gained from these insane experiences are identical to those of low doses so don't think you are missing out. Love, love, love, nothing more, nothing less.
Here are some key phrases from the Shulgin “+4” definition:embracethevoid said:
Only you can decide if your experiences match the criteria.
embracethevoid
Rising Star
Well, I present right here a drug (DMT, oral) and a technique (dose high, then dose high again at the peak) of reproducing this state pretty damn consistently. Make of that what you will.
One thing is noted, there is NO END to the rabbit hole. Each of those experiences brought a new "holy shit" factor into my life. Nowadays I have spiced so much the "holy shit" factor is vastly diminished. However I have gotten what I want from the spice and nowadays I live in complete and utter inner peace.
Defining a +4 as a "rarely repeatable experience" then telling me that a +4 is rarely repeatable is somewhat circular, don't you think? If all the other conditions are fulfilled with the sole exception of "rarely repeated" then it suffices to say that one's definition of a +4 may need some revision.
In my experience with the spice, there is a blue/white void state, which I first encountered, full of challenge but extreme bliss. There is another cloudy void state which is blissed out but in a different way. Lately I have encountered the black void, and this makes me shit bricks. However it teaches the most powerful lessons (the same lessons as before, just that they pack one hell of a punch).
One thing is noted, there is NO END to the rabbit hole. Each of those experiences brought a new "holy shit" factor into my life. Nowadays I have spiced so much the "holy shit" factor is vastly diminished. However I have gotten what I want from the spice and nowadays I live in complete and utter inner peace.
Defining a +4 as a "rarely repeatable experience" then telling me that a +4 is rarely repeatable is somewhat circular, don't you think? If all the other conditions are fulfilled with the sole exception of "rarely repeated" then it suffices to say that one's definition of a +4 may need some revision.
In my experience with the spice, there is a blue/white void state, which I first encountered, full of challenge but extreme bliss. There is another cloudy void state which is blissed out but in a different way. Lately I have encountered the black void, and this makes me shit bricks. However it teaches the most powerful lessons (the same lessons as before, just that they pack one hell of a punch).
The definition and excerpts aren’t mine, they’re Shulgin’s. So if you disagree with a definition as defined by Shulgin, then you are free to define things as you see fit, but your definition will be yours alone.embracethevoid said:
If you can predictably and regularly achieve a Shulgin +4, then that’s great. That’s actually amazing.
But if what you’re achieving is an embracethevoid +4, then you’ll need to define an embracethevoid rating scale.
I’ll stick with Shulgin’s scale.
embracethevoid said:
Thanks, that was all very helpful. In my first, and only ayahuasca experience, I took 9g of rue and it did kick my ass and floored me for 12 hours. It was the worst physical experience of my life, and yet still profound and awesome in its own way. I managed to get down about 10g worth of mimosa bark (in a tea), but barfed it up in 10 minutes, and continued relentless barfing for several hours, and experienced dizzyness so severe I could not open my eyes without feeling like I was going to pass out. So I still don't know if that the psychedelic effects of that were from the rue or mimosa. That compared to freebase dmt was not similar, at least the visuals. With the rue I was getting fireworks visuals, which were clearly understandable. With freebase and 3g rue, more like flowing prettyness and disorder, incomprehension.
I've been tempted to to try a large dose of rue again, though not as large, and as a pure extract instead of the seeds. I figure that would at least take away the nausea.
for diminishing nausea, yes definitely take less rue. Also, dmt fumarate seems to create much less nausea than dmt freebase. I hope you properly redissolved the dmt in acidified liquid and didnt ingest it as a freebase, because thats very heavy on the stomach.
another trick for diminishing nausea is to chew and swallow some ginger before and after taking the rue and dmt. At least partly, nausea is caused by serotonin signalling in the guts (5-HT3 ) and ginger has a 5-HT3 antagonist in its chemical composition. Just dont make a ginger tea because, as some member of the forum called my attention, this 5-HT3 antagonist in ginger is not water soluble, so gotta swallow the pieces.
another trick for diminishing nausea is to chew and swallow some ginger before and after taking the rue and dmt. At least partly, nausea is caused by serotonin signalling in the guts (5-HT3 ) and ginger has a 5-HT3 antagonist in its chemical composition. Just dont make a ginger tea because, as some member of the forum called my attention, this 5-HT3 antagonist in ginger is not water soluble, so gotta swallow the pieces.
embracethevoid
Rising Star
Nausea is a direct consequence of the harmala alkaloid action at serotonin receptors (I believe) so it is inescapable from high doses.
The trick, if you wish to dose high on rue, is to add some spice with the mix. This makes it vastly easier to handle (MAOI then spice 30 mins later is a much more uncomfortable experience than MAOI + small amount of spice ==(30 mins)==> spice dose). However rue is more overpowering than spice, so at a high dose no amount of spice will take away the discomfort (except for a saturation point dose but that's like jumping off a kerb only to find there's a cliff beneath it).
If you want to have fun with rue, then you damn well can. I haven't gotten round to extracting the alkaloids yet, but this is crucial to what I mean. Rue, at threshold, does pretty little. At too high of a dose, it results in paranoia you can't put a finger on and a feeling of deep vulnerability (all serotonin-associated feelings feel like they come from your inner being/soul). However, get the dose perfect, and you are hereby awarded: MDMA-like euphoric stimulation, hyper awareness & focus, very pretty tracers, etc. I'm sure you felt this for a couple of minutes when taking the 9g (I did that too when I started, hehe, we have a lot in common), it's like "Meh, rue is shit *10 mins* - Ooh what was that - *10 mins* I'm coming upppppppp, damn this feels good *5 mins later* I'm coming up hoooly shit give me a hug *3 hours later* god daaaamn when am I gonna stop coming up". Of course you want to keep it at that 1st level. So I'd say, extract the alkaloids and get a good scale that weighs to 0.01g then dose up, starting from threshold then upping it until you achieve a sustained MDMA-like feeling. If you do this, please post dosage and bodyweight, much thanks
The trick, if you wish to dose high on rue, is to add some spice with the mix. This makes it vastly easier to handle (MAOI then spice 30 mins later is a much more uncomfortable experience than MAOI + small amount of spice ==(30 mins)==> spice dose). However rue is more overpowering than spice, so at a high dose no amount of spice will take away the discomfort (except for a saturation point dose but that's like jumping off a kerb only to find there's a cliff beneath it).
If you want to have fun with rue, then you damn well can. I haven't gotten round to extracting the alkaloids yet, but this is crucial to what I mean. Rue, at threshold, does pretty little. At too high of a dose, it results in paranoia you can't put a finger on and a feeling of deep vulnerability (all serotonin-associated feelings feel like they come from your inner being/soul). However, get the dose perfect, and you are hereby awarded: MDMA-like euphoric stimulation, hyper awareness & focus, very pretty tracers, etc. I'm sure you felt this for a couple of minutes when taking the 9g (I did that too when I started, hehe, we have a lot in common), it's like "Meh, rue is shit *10 mins* - Ooh what was that - *10 mins* I'm coming upppppppp, damn this feels good *5 mins later* I'm coming up hoooly shit give me a hug *3 hours later* god daaaamn when am I gonna stop coming up". Of course you want to keep it at that 1st level. So I'd say, extract the alkaloids and get a good scale that weighs to 0.01g then dose up, starting from threshold then upping it until you achieve a sustained MDMA-like feeling. If you do this, please post dosage and bodyweight, much thanks
embracethevoid said:
sorry to call you out again (I promiss I got nothing against you
and I know you said 'I believe'. Just want to make sure our information is accurate) but, where do you have any info of harmalas acting in serotonin receptors from? AFAIK harmalas are not serotonin agonists, but they affect the serotoninergic system by their MAOI activity, preventing the breakdown of serotonin, which is quite different. DMT, on the other hand, is a serotonin agonist and will cause signalling in the guts, which is what I would suspect is a big part of the reason for nausea, as I explained in my post above.Another thing to differentiate here, is between rue and harmalas. Rue has not only harmalas but also plant oils and other nausea-inducing constituents (possibly plant defenses), and very importantly other more nasty alkaloids such as vasicine or vasicinone, which are uterotonic and abortifaciant (and therefore specially dangerous for pregnant women). Thats why I strongly recommend when consuming rue, to make an extraction on it with at least one manske salt-precipitation step, as this step removes these unwanted alkaloids. Check here for more info if desired.
embracethevoid
Rising Star
endlessness said:embracethevoid said:
sorry to call you out again (I promiss I got nothing against you
Another thing to differentiate here, is between rue and harmalas. Rue has not only harmalas but also plant oils and other nausea-inducing constituents (possibly plant defenses), and very importantly other more nasty alkaloids such as vasicine or vasicinone, which are uterotonic and abortifaciant (and therefore specially dangerous for pregnant women). Thats why I strongly recommend when consuming rue, to make an extraction on it with at least one manske salt-precipitation step, as this step removes these unwanted alkaloids. Check here for more info if desired.
I remember reading about harmala affecting 5HT3C receptors in the gut, or fiddling about with that system in general, I read this in some article regarding what happens supposing one takes a high dose of ayahuasca and why it causes nausea. It makes sense to me given that that anti-emetics do indeed act on that system but if I am incorrect about harmalas acting in the gut to produce nausea, then I do apologise. It said essentially the same thing as you said - "but they affect the serotoninergic system by their MAOI activity, preventing the breakdown of serotonin". I don't really know the specifics when it comes to chemistry/pharmacology, I go by "gut feelings" and I'm still in the process of building up my database of "gut feelings". The day I can take in a drug and from the sensations be able to say "5HT2 agonist, fucking around with norepinephrine levels" is the day I am a happy ma.. cyborg.
@Fnog9 - If you want to experiment with your MAOI to alter your trips, ditch the syrian rue and buy some caapi. For over a year I used rue harmalas and other extracts and thought I was on top of the world. Then I ordered a pound of caapi and brewed up 50 grams (three hours X three boils in a crockpot, then evapped to half a shot glass) and took an oral DMT trip with that....What a difference in the trip! Loving, caring, warm, visually stunning and distinct. You'll never see me with any other MAOI except for caapi.
joebono said:
hmmm, interesting.... but I thought rue and caapi both contain the same active chemicals, harmine, and harmaline. Have you ever tried pharmaceutical maoi's? How do those compare?
Well, Caapi also contains Tetrahydroharmine (THH) and less toxins and oils than rue. Caapi and rue are two completely different experiences, imo/e, and while they may affect you in a similar manner, the qualitative differences are readily apparent. Rue is compared to an old wizened and mysterious male spirit; a secretive shaman. Caapi is a loving an nurturing gaiain spirit who is much more open with her knowledge. Caapi is much more healing and cleansing and I prefer it greatly to rue, although harmaloids extracted from rue are pretty good (then again they have the toxins and oils from the seeds removed). As for pharmaceutical maoi's, I have no clue.fnog9 said:
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