Four Types of DMT Experience- Does it Resonate?

[divineyes]

Four Types of DMT Experiences

"Initial Experience ("Non-Experience")

This type of DMT Experience involves elements such as a loving nothingness or the living dark or a friendly voice. It is usually experienced by those who seem to need the least amount of evidence for proof of survival, or who need the least amount of shakeup in their lives. Often, this becomes a "seed" experience or an introduction to other ways of perceiving and recognizing reality.

Unpleasant and/or Hell-Like Experience (Inner Cleansing and Self-Confrontation)

This type of DMT Experience involves an encounter with a bardo, limbo, or hellish purgatory, or scenes of a startling and unexpected indifference, or even "hauntings" --from one's own past. It is usually experienced by those who seem to have deeply suppressed or repressed guilts, fears, and angers, and/or those who expect some kind of punishment or accountability after death.

Pleasant and/or Heaven-Like Experience (Reassurance and Self-Validation)

This type of DMT Experience involves heaven-like scenarios of loving family reunions with those who have died previously, reassuring religious figures or light beings, validation that life counts, affirmative and inspiring dialogue. It is usually experienced by those who most need to know how loved they are and how important life is and how every effort counts.

Transcendent Experience (Expansive Revelations, Alternate Realities)

This type of DMT Experience involves exposure to otherworldly dimensions and scenes beyond the individual's frame of reference, and sometimes includes revelations of greater truths. It is usually experienced by those who are ready for a "mind-stretching" challenge, and/or who are most apt to use, to whatever degree, the truths that are revealed.

It has been my observation that all four of these types can occur during the same experience, exist in combinations, or be spread throughout a series of episodes for a particular individual. Generally, however, each represents a distinctive episode occurring but once to a given person."

Does this resonate with anyone? Maybe a good indicator/categorization of some general types of experience that are shared by Spice Travelers?

BOOM! Surprise. This is a breakdown of the most common Near Death Experiences. I just switched out NDE with DMT. Sorry to be so sneaky, but I thought it would have a powerful impact that way.

Here is the full link to the article: http://www.cinemind.com/atwater/hell.html

I would love to hear everyone's thoughts- especially on the 4th type of experience- which I feel is most like the experiences documented on this site.

Peace on Earth and Goodwill Toward All,

Divineyes ; )

 

[ragabr]

These categories don't really cover SWIM's DMT experiences at all. The type-4 description is too vague to even attempt to apply; hard to see what would differentiate it from reading an excellent novel or taking a vacation to someplace that has always seemed meaningful to you.

Edit: Also, what would a non-experience mean, in reference to DMT?

The closest to a "hell-experience" for SWIM has absolutely nothing to do with personal history or guilt. It's instead the revelation of the paradoxical nature of belief, the interrelation of linguistic reality leading to a state of aweful aporia.

 

[Global]

Yeah, I have had a wide array of different kinds of experiences, but those don't match up so well with me. Also I'm not quite sure about all this talk with "people who are ready for this" or "people who are in need of that". I think we like to assign meaning behind the experiences, and if the person can take something positive away from it, then all the better. But I'm not all too convinced that there was some higher reason in terms of who needs this or that going into the experience. Fact of the matter is that everyone will always have problems in their life, so it's not surprising that people are inclined to receive such experiences. I think a certain readiness in being able to let go, go with the flow...however you wanna put it, can play in to how far you're able to go, but I'm not convinced it has much to do with the specific kind of experience you receive.

 

[divineyes]

Perhaps DMT serves a function as the Gnostic Revealer and helps the "activation of the redemptive potential of self-knowledge"

The Gnostic/Christian heretic, Valentinus, on the problem of ignorance and gnostic redemption:

"Perfect redemption is the cognition itself of the ineffable greatness: for since through ignorance came about the defect . . . the whole system springing from ignorance is dissolved in Gnosis. Therefore Gnosis is the redemption of the inner man; and it is not of the body, for the body is corruptible; nor is it psychical, for even the soul is a product of the defect and it is a lodging to the spirit: pneumatic (spiritual) therefore also must be redemption itself. Through Gnosis, then, is redeemed the inner, spiritual man: so that to us suffices the Gnosis of universal being: and this is the true redemption. (Adv. Haer. I. 21,4)"

And from the article (link below):

"The ignorance of the agencies that create the false system is thus undone and rectified by the spiritual Gnosis of the human being. The defect can be removed from being by Gnosis. There is no need whatsoever for guilt, for repentance from so-called sin, neither is there a need for a blind belief in a vicarious salvation by way of the death of Jesus. We don't need to be saved; we need to be transformed by Gnosis. The wrong-headedness, perversity, obtuseness, and malignancy of the existential condition of humanity can be changed into a glorious image of the fullness of being. This is done not by guilt, shame, and an eternal saviour but by the activation of the redemptive potential of self-knowledge. Spiritual self-knowledge thus becomes the inverse equivalent of the ignorance of the unredeemed ego. The elaborate mythic structures of cosmogonic and redemptive content bequeathed to us by Valentinus are but the poetic-scriptural expressions of this grand proposition, which has a direct relevance to the existential condition of the human psyche in all ages and in all cultures."

Valentinus - A Gnostic for All Seasons

ps. I know there are many here who have no reason to suppose there is any "higher" or "spiritual" purpose behind DMT. I am particularly interested in discussing these ideas with the people here who do. Namaste and Respect.

 

[divineyes]

Ragabr- I had to look up aporia on wikipedia- I thought you might dig this:

"In Plato's Meno (84a-c), Socrates describes the purgative effect of reducing someone to aporia: it shows someone who merely thought he knew something that he does not in fact know it and instills in him a desire to investigate it."

 

[ms_manic_minxx]

The only one of those that really resonates with me is the "transcendent experience," but those are by NO means the only kind of experiences I have!

I think there are lots of levels and only one axis of measurement is a bad idea.

For example, is it emotional? psychological? the body at a microscopic level? you as a microscopic speck of the universe? are there animals/insects? entities? are you receiving physical adjustments? teachings? mental downloads? do you disintegrate? do you hear the carrier wave? do you see mythical deities? etc.

None of these things are necessarily intrinsically related to a level of a person's personal development: they are all only related to the DMT experience. Sometimes there are parallels between one's personal experiences and ego state with the DMT experience: other times, NOT, simply because DMT is so vast, so much more infinite than a human personality.

There are so many LEVELS and NUANCES and they all overlap!

 

[ragabr]

thanks divineyes. Why would one's position on the spirituality of DMT change the applicability of this schemata of experience? If the structure applied, wouldn't it be self-revealing?

 

[divineyes]

Good point, friend- it should have no bearing, and the schemata (if valid) should work well regardless of individual beliefs. I happened to see an interesting parallel between the Near-Death States and my own DMT experiences.

In regards to DMT playing the role as some kind of Gnostic Revealer, I thought that subject would resonate more deeply with people here who are theists or agnostic.

Indeed, if some kind of "God" or Vast Cosmic Intelligence exists independent of our own conceptions of It- then the question of what kind of role this substance may play in the Grand Schema becomes tantalizingly attractive, at least in my opinion.

 

[Global]

"The ignorance of the agencies that create the false system is thus undone and rectified by the spiritual Gnosis of the human being. The defect can be removed from being by Gnosis. There is no need whatsoever for guilt, for repentance from so-called sin, neither is there a need for a blind belief in a vicarious salvation by way of the death of Jesus. We don't need to be saved; we need to be transformed by Gnosis. The wrong-headedness, perversity, obtuseness, and malignancy of the existential condition of humanity can be changed into a glorious image of the fullness of being. This is done not by guilt, shame, and an eternal saviour but by the activation of the redemptive potential of self-knowledge. Spiritual self-knowledge thus becomes the inverse equivalent of the ignorance of the unredeemed ego. The elaborate mythic structures of cosmogonic and redemptive content bequeathed to us by Valentinus are but the poetic-scriptural expressions of this grand proposition, which has a direct relevance to the existential condition of the human psyche in all ages and in all cultures."

That really resonated with me.

 

[jmaxton]

I can definitely relate to all of these. If you were to remove the parts that are NDE-centric and skip over the author's clumsy religious connections, these categories could be used to classify every last one of my DMT and Ayahuasca experiences. Not to say that it would exactly describe them, but you all really don't find it interesting that NDEs and DMTEs are similar, even if only at a high level? The negative reactions to this post are quite interesting indeed!

I'm not sure why some seem to be so turned off by these scenarios. Maybe it's the author's approach to describing it, but are you really saying you've never experienced the void, the loving glow, the jumbled flashes of 'forgotten' memories or the wackiness of hyperspace? If I read through the experiences forum I'm sure I could easily pick out several examples of each. I suspect that we most often hear about the transcendent variety because those are the easiest and most fun to share, but I know I've seen multiple examples of each of the four 'categories' right here on the Nexus. Maybe I'm misinterpreting the responses, but I truly think divineyes has brought up an interesting point in a novel way. Thanks for sharing this, divineyes!

Here's my 'reformatted' take on the 4 types of NDE experiences with all the BS removed. It's spot-on for me in terms of my DMT journeys.

Four Types of DMT Experiences

The Void (Non-Experience)
This type of DMT Experience involves elements such as an empty void, loving nothingness or the living dark.

Unpleasant and/or Hell-Like Experience (Inner Cleansing and Self-Confrontation)
This type of DMT Experience involves an encounter with a bardo, limbo, or hellish purgatory, or scenes of a startling and unexpected indifference, or even "hauntings" --from one's own past. Ayahuasca, anyone?

Pleasant and/or Heaven-Like Experience (Reassurance and Self-Validation)
This type of DMT Experience involves heaven-like scenarios..., reassuring religious figures or light beings, validation that life counts, affirmative and inspiring dialogue.

Transcendent Experience (Expansive Revelations, Alternate Realities)
This type of DMT Experience involves exposure to otherworldly dimensions and scenes beyond the individual's frame of reference, and sometimes includes revelations of greater truths.

-JM

 

[divineyes]

J-Max! Good work- I like how you've pared it down.

It seems like many people on the DMT Quest are searching for an ultimate answer- some supreme tell-all-end-all revelation, but have we ever considered that the trade-off would be that the "game" ends?

We are here for experience, to search and to seek more light, that we might gain a little wisdom so that we can live a little brighter, love a little better, smile a little wider- but no final answers because that just might break this endless observer/observed informational feedback-loop that keeps it all expanding in dimensions of glory and orders of magnitude!

To be satisfied with the "little things" is where it's at, cause it's the little things that sometimes matter the most. : )

 

[ragabr]

There's nothing in the initial descriptions or your reformatting that specifically apply to the DMT experience as opposed to any other type of experience, to me. And, again, the vast majority of SWIM's DMT experiences do not appear to fall into any of these categories.

Hellish or purgatorial would never be the words she would refer to her ayahuasca experiences, especially.

Edit:

but are you really saying you've never experienced the void, the loving glow, the jumbled flashes of 'forgotten' memories or the wackiness of hyperspace?

Reading above, no one has said that haven't had *some* experiences that fit these categories. Perhaps it was my own projection, but I read the OP as saying *all* DMT experiences fall into some combination of these four categories.

 

[Global]

Yeah, I agree. The way I read it was to say, these are the categories of experience that are possible, and as ragabr said, mine don't match up so nicely. I mean no offense to the OP, as they seem to be a genuinely nice person, but just to say that it seemed like a closed-minded dichotomy. I would have left it more open-ended.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

First, I must say, I don't agree with this at all. I have had soooo many experiences that come nowhere close to any of these categories that I don't even know how I could explain them in relation to these categories. I don't know where you came up with the idea of 4 archetypal trips, but it seems wildly inconsistent with my experience. Hell, I've had evenings where I've had four different experiences that simply don't qualify for any of these categories.

Now as far as this

It seems like many people on the DMT Quest are searching for an ultimate answer- some supreme tell-all-end-all revelation

I agree, many people do seem to have this approach...so what? These are usually the individuals writing "FUCK DMT" threads when they realize there is no "answer" or writing long rambling posts about getting to the next hyperspatial level so that they can "meet the boss" or other ridiculous whatnot. If you expect answers from dmt, ime, ultimately you will be sorely disappointed as there are no answers, only more questions.

We are here for experience, to search and to seek more light, that we might gain a little wisdom so that we can live a little brighter, love a little better, smile a little wider- but no final answers

Exactly...THIS is one point of the dmt experience, imo. It brings a little Clear Light into our day to day life...but as with the experience itself much of the potential benefits (as well as just the sheer potential) of this rests within what you do with it and take from it.

To be satisfied with the "little things" is where it's at, cause it's the little things that sometimes matter the most. : )

:d indeed

 

[Virola78]

...
Now as far as this

It seems like many people on the DMT Quest are searching for an ultimate answer- some supreme tell-all-end-all revelation

I agree, many people do seem to have this approach...so what? These are usually the individuals writing "FUCK DMT" threads when they realize there is no "answer" or writing long rambling posts about getting to the next hyperspatial level so that they can "meet the boss" or other ridiculous whatnot. If you expect answers from dmt, ime, ultimately you will be sorely disappointed as there are no answers, only more questions...

Yes. More questions..

How about the type of revelation where one knows all at once, finally sees the simple answer that makes all questions absurd, followed by deep and intense feelings of gratitude and rapture at the same moment as one realises one wont be able to comprehend when back. Pooof im back, open my eyes. calm. serene.

Familiar cyanescens dreams?

 

[jmaxton]

Wow, there's just so much negativity on this board lately when it comes to others' ideas. So many here seem to be caught up in their own superiority complexes that a perfectly intelligent and logical discussion such as this can't even get off the ground. It seems like these poor attitudes are just tolerated now when in the past they've been actively discouraged by mods and long-time members. Maybe the state of the outside world is taking a toll here, but I had always seen this place as being above the 'you're wrong, I'm right' mentality. Yet that's exactly the response OP got here. Don't all ideas have at least some merit if we choose to be open-minded?

So what if the OP's list of experiences doesn't exactly match up with yours? I believe the point was that NDEs and DMTEs have similarities. That's an interesting point. To those who refuse to see a connection- are you really so absorbed in yourselves that you can't see where divineyes is coming from? Why is it that people seem to be so rigid when it comes to these types of questions? Sometimes I feel like I'd get a better conversation about spirituality out of a Jehovah's witness. At least they acknowledge your views before completely dismissing them.

OP was not trying to pigeon-hole you or somehow rob you of your uniqueness, just pointing out an interesting correlation between two psycho-spiritual phenomena nobody fully understands. These dismissive reactions are truly lame and I don't feel that they represent the Nexus in a positive way. Lighten up, people! Seriously...

-JM

 

[picatris]

In trying to be constructive, here's the 5th type (so that others may add the 6th, 7th, 8th..) This one in fact is the most common with me with smoked spice or changa when I do not breakthrough, which is the majority of times (I've had few breakthroughs with smoked spice):

"One is thrown to a 3-dimensional caleidoscope, with many repetitive elements of cartoonish faces with extremely bright colours. There is no meaning in any of it. There is no pleasure whatsoever and the experience is generally disturbing"

 

[jmaxton]

Lighten up, people! Seriously...

OK- taking my own advice here, my apologies for the rant. I don't mean to stir up trouble or insult anyone's intelligence. Sorry for expressing my frustration in such a sharp way- I truly respect everyone here and hope no feelings were hurt. Just wish more people would try to contribute. Strassman even wrote about this connection in DMT:TSM!

Again, please accept my sincere apologies. I love you all!

-JM

 

[ragabr]

I'm confused by your objections, jmaxton. No one has said that divineyes' model was stupid or said that the topic shouldn't have been brought up. This thread demonstrates one of the great things of the Nexus to me, the opportunity to propose something to a diverse group of experts and get their honest opinion and criticism.

Each person compared the model to their own experiences and respectfully pointed out inadequacies.

If the point of the post, instead of to discuss the particular applicability of these descriptions to the DMT experience, was comparing NDE's and DMT in general, why not continue:
Hallucinations and OBE's/NDE's
Near Death Experiences, Theories and DMT
or
What's with the NDE Analogy? It's getting a bit old...

 

[SnozzleBerry]

...
Now as far as this

It seems like many people on the DMT Quest are searching for an ultimate answer- some supreme tell-all-end-all revelation

I agree, many people do seem to have this approach...so what? These are usually the individuals writing "FUCK DMT" threads when they realize there is no "answer" or writing long rambling posts about getting to the next hyperspatial level so that they can "meet the boss" or other ridiculous whatnot. If you expect answers from dmt, ime, ultimately you will be sorely disappointed as there are no answers, only more questions...

Yes. More questions..

How about the type of revelation where one knows all at once, finally sees the simple answer that makes all questions absurd, followed by deep and intense feelings of gratitude and rapture at the same moment as one realises one wont be able to comprehend when back. Pooof im back, open my eyes. calm. serene.

Familiar cyanescens dreams?

Hehehe, oh so very familiar...I have experienced such omniscience, where I knew everything and knew I knew everything. The thing is...this "everything"...in it's most fundamental/essential sense was Love, pure and "simple". It really does render all questions as absurdity; I literally could not stop laughing for upwards of five minutes as I felt this sensation/knowledge/emotion and then tried to relate it to anything else. I mean...it was EVERYTHING, what else could it relate to? :lol: Virola, what a truly beautiful type of experience to have, mine was courtesy of the molecule not the fun guys, but you know...different keys to the same door :d

Wow, there's just so much negativity on this board lately when it comes to others' ideas. So many here seem to be caught up in their own superiority complexes that a perfectly intelligent and logical discussion such as this can't even get off the ground. It seems like these poor attitudes are just tolerated now when in the past they've been actively discouraged by mods and long-time members. Maybe the state of the outside world is taking a toll here, but I had always seen this place as being above the 'you're wrong, I'm right' mentality. Yet that's exactly the response OP got here. Don't all ideas have at least some merit if we choose to be open-minded?

So what if the OP's list of experiences doesn't exactly match up with yours? I believe the point was that NDEs and DMTEs have similarities. That's an interesting point. To those who refuse to see a connection- are you really so absorbed in yourselves that you can't see where divineyes is coming from? Why is it that people seem to be so rigid when it comes to these types of questions? Sometimes I feel like I'd get a better conversation about spirituality out of a Jehovah's witness. At least they acknowledge your views before completely dismissing them.

OP was not trying to pigeon-hole you or somehow rob you of your uniqueness, just pointing out an interesting correlation between two psycho-spiritual phenomena nobody fully understands. These dismissive reactions are truly lame and I don't feel that they represent the Nexus in a positive way. Lighten up, people! Seriously...

-JM

As one of the people who disagreed with the initial post, I can't help but assume your words were, at least in part, directed towards me. I would like to first say that, given that no one was disrespectful or acting untoward to the OP...on such a forum disagreements over everything from terminology semantics to entire conceptual frameworks should be expected. To ask for people to agree out of some quest for board "harmony" seems a little absurd...yes people should be polite and not shoot things down simply because they do not match personal experience...but...if someone asks if something matches (or "resonates" with) your personal experience and it doesn't, is it not at least as important for this reality to be revealed as to have board harmony?

As far as contributing to this thread; imo to say that this experience does not resonate IS a contribution as it shows there are (at least in some cases) significant and startlingly apparent differences between NDEs and the DMT phenomenon. This is just as important as being able to say there are similarities, as whichever way the "scale" tips at the end of people weighing on on these experiences (similar/dissimilar) that is the "objective" data to be collected and used to analyze similarities between these experiences and ultimately determine how similar they are.

Now, on a slightly different note, I'm somewhat sick of reading these types of comparisons. Yes there are similarities, yes there are differences, and generally, it's interesting reading all-around (I know it grabs my attention if it's similar enough or particularly well-written). However, it makes no sense to go running around touting NDEs as similar to DMT if A) There is no evidence to support such a claim B) There are significant differences noted by a substantial number of users or C) There is no scientific evidence on which to rest the hypothesis (these are not the only circumstances by any stretch, just a few that come to mind). As there is currently no evidence to support a linked cause AFAIK, I think we should have an open and critical view of what could be going on and accept that yes it could be that the DMT experience and NDEs are linked or it might not be...either way there's not enough data to say at the present moment (thus we should be occupied with collecting and analyzing data).

Sorry for the bit of a rambling post, but having just read Singing to the Plants by Stephen Beyer, in which he makes several claims about potential implications or possibilities of ayahuasca/dmt chemistry based on Strassman's conjectures as to pineal dmt which are now completely inaccurate given the absence of INMT in the pineal, I feel that as a community, we have an obligation to present that which we "know" and that which we are currently speculating and postulating about. I feel that there tends to be a bit of a tendency for people in our community to run away with ideas simply because they sound good or can be made to fit the picture frame for some individuals. This is a case where we can literally ask how well this picture fits the frame and find out from various community members - if the picture doesn't fit the frame, it's on us to say so and, as in this thread, you can see that people have no problem stating what is and is not congruent with their experiences.

Personally, I have had experiences that resonate with what the OP posted...However, given that I have had infinitely more experiences that don't resonate with the NDE archetypes presented in this thread, I felt that disagreeing with the OP was necessary as the vast majority of my experiences do not line up with these archetypes and that is at least as important to acknowledge as the few experiences that have aligned with the experiences presented.