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Fresh Syrian Rue seeds

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This is my postulation.

There is a vast difference between fresh seeds and seeds more than a few weeks old...

İncluding but not limited to extreme time dilation in the fresh ones.

I have yet to have met anyone who harvests their own seeds as I do... And I wonder if a chemical analysis has ever been done on freshly picked seeds.

THH is reported to be the least stable of the harmalas.
Perhaps it degrades faster in rue seeds than in caapi stem...

Also, I have no doubt that the qualitative difference between the rue experience and the caapi experience has reasons way beyond just THH...
If I recall correctly, Syrian rue contains way more harmaline than Caapi does. Maybe that accounts for the qualitative difference between the Rue experience and the Caapi experience?
Thats really interesting dithyramb, Ive often wondered why hardly anyone talks about cultivating rue, and never heard of a difference in effects from fresh rue seeds. Could you tell us more about how the experience differs between fresh and dried/aged seeds and also your cultivation techniques? Im planning to try growing the plant in the UK. Would ordinary grocery shop rue seeds be viable do you think?
There is also the harmine harmaline ratio difference, but my point was that the energetic difference goes beyond the difference in alkaloids.

I don't cultivate syrian rue, ijahdan. İt grows wild forming seemingly infinite oceans in the country where I live. For cultivation, the seeds stay viable for a very long time.
Although we can't extract it easily, rue contains Harmalol. If you make a simple tea or take the seeds directly you will have Harmalol along with a bunch of other stuff too.

Harmalol likes water in both acidic and basic conditions, so during extractions we usually flush it away.

If you have your own plants, Harmol may be present in the roots (but like Harmalol I don't know of a simple way to isolate it).

Regarding THH, levels of 0.1% have been mentioned in seeds (see attachment).

Attaching this:
Herraiz T, González D, Ancín-Azpilicueta C, Arán VJ, Guillén H (March 2010). "beta-Carboline alkaloids in Peganum harmala and inhibition of human monoamine oxidase (MAO)". Food Chem. Toxicol. 48 (3): 839–45.


  • herraiz2010.pdf
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Yes there are a few other alkaloids in rue.

Regarding THH, levels of 0.1% have been mentioned in seeds (see attachment).

My point was that the levels of THH are likely much higher in fresh seeds
For what it's worth this is what the paper has to say:

"Whole green fruits (capsules) were also
analyzed and their amount of harmine and harmaline was nine-
times lower than that in dry seeds, indicating that b-carbolines
highly increased during development, ripening and drying process
of fruits and seeds."

Not sure when the THH itself peaks in the seeds, but in the paper they seemed to not have found much of anything at all in the fresh green pods.

One thing that I haven't seen yet is what happens right after seed germination (we've wondered about it before but as far as I know no one has posted results). The harmalas seem to be in the shell of the dry seed (also mentioned in the paper). Maybe there is a boost to Harmalol during germination and root formation with little changes to the harmalas in the seed shell. That's just speculation though, and most of us just throw the Harmalol away because of the isolation difficulties it has. Still, I think extracting after germinating the seeds could be very interesting.

Also, I think I remember reading that dry caapi still has THH with no stability issues. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
Well, I have never tried unripe green pods. I am talking about ripe seeds from fully mature, dried out, live plants. I am saying the THH degradation process seems to accelerate once the seeds are harvested.

I have been experimenting with germinated/sprouted seeds and I can attest that they become experientially a cross between normal seeds and the root (along with other features) which resonates with your theory.
if you read through "hoama and harmaline" which is a book by david stophlet flattery and martin schawrtz, there is an emphasis for haoma (which is the wild rue, as suggested in the book) to not cause the drinker to experience involuntary trembling, and other debilitating side effects which are experienced by some while under the influence of rue seeds, my guess would be that in the search for a clearer and smoother journey, which is again mentioned in the the avestan text "hom yasht" aka the canon of this haoma drinking society where the drinker asks for straightness of mind and a clear intoxication etc, people who were engaged in the drinking of haoma/sauma gravitate toward the fresh rue plant, which is described as soft stalks which are pulled by the handful for the preparation of haoma on site, having had harmine+thh myself, and many others here, i think we can agree how less debilitating it is compared to harmaline+harmine and also much more energetic/clear

anyhow, just thought i'd put this here since it seemed relevant, i also wonder about the roots, and if the roots were included in haoma and what that would implicate in practical terms of the experience, since i haven't experienced the roots
brokedownpalace10 said:
Espurrr said:
brokedownpalace10 said:
What's the alkaloid difference in the roots?
harmol supposedly

Thank you, sir.
Is there any consensus on the subjective effects of Harmol?

aside from our friend here leaving a description in another post of the roots of the wild rue, "no talking or teaching" which would be a combination of harmine and harmol, and the fact that harmine is metabolized in the body to harmol and exerted through urine, I couldn't find much else

I could understand why harmine + THH would be desirable over harmaline + harmine for most people, though i can't fathom what harmine + hamrmol + THH would be like, which has piqued my interest

I have to say that harmaline is quite powerful if it does not induce debilitating nausea/vomiting and involuntary trembling and loss of motor function etc , which IME is all caused by diet and internal tension of the organs etc , and most ayahuasca brews today would contain a combination of harmaline + harmine + thh, though usually a dieta of no salt and oil and sugar along with a lot of fresh foods and in some cases one meal a day is undertaken days before the ceremony which can reduce the debilitating effects of harmaline to an extent, I find it only affects my balance while walking when I'm completely fasted when I take it even in higher doses + 400 - 500 mg from rue seeds

so far the most remarkable experience I've had from harmalas was from the harmaline + harmine of rue seeds, and am exploring the question of where do the rest of these alkaloid profiles lead if I myself am not obstructed

would they also be capable of inducing such a remarkable state as harmaline + harmine ?
Personally i love Harmaline/Rue, i usually take it daily/regularly and let the reverse tolerance go away which will do away with the side-effects so no more nausea/vomiting, the motor function impairment goes away and the bodyload/headspace cleans up, and i can then handle heavy heavy dosages of Harmaline/Rue with ease and without really any side-effects, just feels like a clean/clear medication of sorts.
Ok, I will not make solid claims as I did before; I cannot know about THH for sure. What I know for sure is that freshly harvested seeds are worlds apart in magic from more than two months old seeds. Of course the transformation is gradual.

I am also curious to know about the effects of harmol and harmalol. The effect of the root is not necessarily a good indicator as so much more than one alkaloid or even all the alkaloids are at play.
dithyramb said:
Immersiveness, time dilation, spirit connection, visionariness, healing power.

yes immersion, as in engaging the totality of what you are, I'd like to add without inflating any specific part/layer

visionary, I feel as though instead of "content" being added onto my perception, a veil is lifted like a thick fog, and laying eyes on what lies underneath

healing power, for me harmalas have no certain direction or drive towards anything, which is actually how they differ fundamentally from other shamanic plants, in their ability to induce a completely open non-forced atmosphere

i'd like to add also the possibility to continue and maintain an altered state with far less consequences than most other substances, i feel if the dosage of the harmalas is kept within the range where internal processes don't come to a complete stop the altered state can continue for many many days, maybe even for years
dithyramb said:
What I know for sure is that freshly harvested seeds are worlds apart in magic from more than two months old seeds. Of course the transformation is gradual.

Did you ever try to roast the older seeds? It is a common practice by some forum members (I think ShamensStamen came up with it first, but I might be wrong). If so, it would be interesting to hear how the roasted (old) seeds compare to the fresh seeds. Maybe roasting somehow recovers some of the characteristics of young seeds (e.g. THH content).
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