Fruitarian or vegan?

[Jin]

if this thread is closed , then how is replying still possible

also if the title of the thread is - "thread closed" , then how will this thread serve its purpose to help people considering being a fruitarian or vegan

please title the thread appropriately so it may serve its purpose

 

[endlessness]

And remember that the threads are not unidirectional, they are not meant to please the OP only. As soon as you open the discussion, it becomes a part of the community, and should be for everybody. Please don't ruin a thread's flow and the possibility that others in the future benefit from this discussion by writing a 'closed' title if it didn't turn out how you expect. Thread titles should always be descriptive of the content.

 

[smokerx]

Definitely vegan , mo meat and animal products needed for human.

Some good advice in post n. 23 I would just avoid soy completely. Soy in any shops will be genetically modified.

To those who think that humans have to eat meat or animal products I always say : the biggest and strongest mammals on our planets are vegans

 

[jamie]

"To those who think that humans have to eat meat or animal products I always say : the biggest and strongest mammals on our planets are vegans"

They are not human..so that point has little applicable merit and is often used to justify an opinion that people are already attached to. Some of the strongest mammals on earth also have sex with their brothers and sisters, but I wont do it..and the mammals with the largest brain capacity eat a diet of fish, and share some morphological traits in common with humans that other apes do not.

 

[smokerx]

"To those who think that humans have to eat meat or animal products I always say : the biggest and strongest mammals on our planets are vegans"

They are not human..so that point has little applicable merit and is often used to justify an opinion that people are already attached to. Some of the strongest mammals on earth also have sex with their brothers and sisters, but I wont do it..and the mammals with the largest brain capacity eat a diet of fish, and share some morphological traits in common with humans that other apes do not.

I think I made very good point no need to go into details as this was used just to make point.

Buy the way some humans also have sex with their brothers and sisters plus other animals and same sex. Yes thats how low humanity got.

 

[a1pha]

I think I made very good point no need to go into details as this was used just to make point.

Your point was not good. In fact, your point is not even valid given the vast differences in diet between a wild mammal and the diet of a human. They are very different things.

Buy the way some humans also have sex with their brothers and sisters plus other animals and same sex. Yes thats how low humanity got.

Excuse me? Same sex is somehow "low"? You can take a week off for that comment.

[Edit: Reduced to a week b/c I doubt whether it's a month or a week you'll mature much, if at all. You should spend some time with your inner self and examine why you consider same sex relationships immoral. Hopefully your reasoning extends beyond Leviticus.]

 

[The Traveler]

I think I made very good point no need to go into details as this was used just to make point.

You did not make a good point at all, you just made a statement and presented it as a fact without backing it up with evidence.

Of the great apes, chimps and bonobo's eat meat for sure. Orangutans and gorillas eat insects and recent evidence suggests that gorilla's also eat other meat in opportunistic cases:

* Vertebrate DNA in Fecal Samples from Bonobos and Gorillas: Evidence for Meat Consumption or Artefact?
* A review of the diets of captive gorillas
* Chimps kill and eat enemy chimps


The biggest mammal that is currently on this planet is the blue whale which eat primarily krill and some copepods:

* National Marine Mammal Laboratory: What do blue whales eat?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Ufostrahlen]

You did not make a good point at all, you just made a statement and presented it as a fact without backing it up with evidence.

Let's refine his okay point a bit.

the biggest and strongest mammals on our planets are vegans ->
the biggest and strongest land living mammals on our planets are not eating other mammals, but sometimes insects in low quantities and 99.95% fruit/leaf.

Also most of the biggest and strongest land living mammals are classified as herbivorous:

* Buffalo
* Elephant
* Gorilla (see comment [1])
* Rhinoceros
* Hippopotamus

Also all land living sauropods are classified as herbivorous. Not as big as a blue whale, but granted, how do you get your herbs in the sea with that body size?

[1] From the study "Vertebrate DNA in Fecal Samples from Bonobos and Gorillas: Evidence for Meat Consumption or Artefact? (there's a reason for the quotation mark)

As a control we also attempted PCR amplifications from gorilla feces, a species assumed to be strictly herbivorous. [..]

Our results allow at least three possible and mutually not exclusive conclusions. First, all results may represent contamination of the feces by vertebrate DNA from the local environment. Thus, studies investigating a species' diet from feces DNA may be unreliable due to the low copy number of DNA originating from diet items. Second, there is some inherent difference between the bonobo and gorilla feces, with only the later ones being contaminated. Third, similar to bonobos, for which the consumption of monkeys has only recently been documented, the gorilla population investigated (for which very little observational data are as yet available) may occasionally consume small vertebrates. Although the last explanation is speculative, it should not be discarded a-priori given that observational studies continue to unravel new behaviors in great ape species.

And your second study still says:

It is clear that most zoos feed their gorillas a principally frugivorous diet, while the diets of wild gorilla populations are undoubtedly basically herbivorous.

 

[dreamer042]

I very much enjoy Michael Pollan's work regarding food and diet, he's one of the most sensible and straightforward thinkers on the subject I have encountered. I highly recommend his work.

Here is a link to a book of very simple guidelines that function as a good working outline no matter what specific dietary lifestyle you choose to follow.

 

[Orion]

Also most of the biggest and strongest land living mammals are classified as herbivorous

'Strongest' feels like a word that can be taken many ways.

Also all land living sauropods are classified as herbivorous. Not as big as a blue whale, but granted, how do you get your herbs in the sea with that body size?

There wasn't so much of a distinction when these magnificent creatures actually lived. By comparison with today's large land animals, many prehistoric carnivores where much larger. The balance of gasses in the atmosphere is also a major factor, and one of the reasons animals today can scarcely support themselves at half the size of their prehistoric ancestors.

Size and physical strength are not the most important things for the survival of a species. I would say a 'strong' species is one which can endure the most. Fungi, insects and bacteria seem much stronger to me as a whole, and their diet includes just about everything.

 

[amandanita]

Well, just an update: i'm feeling great!

i had one day of eating vegetables, now it's fruit time again. i'm doing raw fruitarian diet the 90/5/5 way. i'm eating fruits, oatmeal and soy milk (with b12 and calcium) oatmeal fits the 90/5/5 plan nicely! soy milk (in moderation) does as well.

when i feel like i want to eat something else i'll just take out some veggies and throw them in the wok.

ps: i quit rice! no more rice for me.

 

[anrchy]

Is meat only bad because your "harming" an animal? I love meat, I don't really see what the problem is. Plants have feelings too.

+1 to anyone trying to improve on the amount of nutrients in their body no matter what diet they have chosen.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

+1 to anyone trying to improve on the amount of nutrients in their body no matter what diet they have chosen.

+2 to anyone trying to improve on the amount of nutrients in their body while maintaining a conscious perspective on the bigger picture.

 

[SpartanII]

I'm surprised hemp seed wasn't mentioned in this thread.:surprised

It's loaded with vitamins, minerals, a good source of vegan protein, essential fatty acids, fiber, has the full amino acid profile, and tastes great!

You can make a quick, simple, vegan meal-replacement shake with ground hemp seed, hemp protein powder, and coconut milk.

 

[○]

Kind of a sidenote here; i've talked with several people in my life that would snub their nose against the idea that I would ever consider to hunt - say a deer, or something similar, saying that it's barbaric, or that im not very aware or conscious of what im doing, when in reality - in nature - that animal had led an excellent life, grazing in the expanse of the natural world; not pinned up in a systematic slaughterhouse, tortured, fed hormones and whathaveyou and then sent to brightly colored packaging in the local grocery store. I hope these people realize that that deer or whathaveyou, eventually will be killed/consumed - whether by a pack of wolves, coyotes, a bear, etc; and that the chances of it's death upon my hands is in the same ballpark as if it were to die otherwise. Realizing that something had to die to sustain something else is Life. Life consumes Life ..no matter what semantics or ideals you attempt to attach. That is Life; point blank.

The funny thing about these various statements that people make regarding this is that while they sit there and point the finger so to speak, they are driving around in their leather appointed seats, have a purse or shoes made from animal hide, facial products, so on and so forth, made from the systematic torture of millions of animals. I tend to find that fairly hypocritical and 'not very conscious' - if they want to throw those terms around. Even so, aside from those products I listed above - most people that say these things don't realize that they themselves, on some level, are participating in the systematic mindless slaughter via things they may own/eat/wear/etc; the nails go very deep - often out of sight.

To be intimately connected with Death, to feel it, to feel the emotions it produces in the act of killing another animal is something very few will ever do or understand; there's feelings there that transcend petty discussion of the matter. A deep found gratitude and respect; a reverence - something that most people that blindly point the finger can't fully grasp; something that most people in our culture are lacking to some degree.

(this isnt pointed at anyone here; just speaking from personal experience; love you guys)

here's a great poem by khalil gibran; one that strikes home on my thoughts.

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.
But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship.
And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.


When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."


And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
"Your seeds shall live in my body,
And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart,
And your fragrance shall be my breath,
And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."


And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart,
"I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress,
And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels."
And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup;
And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.​

 

[amandanita]

Kind of a sidenote here; i've talked with several people in my life that would snub their nose against the idea that I would ever consider to hunt - say a deer, or something similar, saying that it's barbaric, or that im not very aware or conscious of what im doing, when in reality - in nature - that animal had led an excellent life, grazing in the expanse of the natural world; not pinned up in a systematic slaughterhouse, tortured, fed hormones and whathaveyou and then sent to brightly colored packaging in the local grocery store. I hope these people realize that that deer or whathaveyou, eventually will be killed/consumed - whether by a pack of wolves, coyotes, a bear, etc; and that the chances of it's death upon my hands is in the same ballpark as if it were to die otherwise. Realizing that something had to die to sustain something else is Life. Life consumes Life ..no matter what semantics or ideals you attempt to attach. That is Life; point blank.

The funny thing about these various statements that people make regarding this is that while they sit there and point the finger so to speak, they are driving around in their leather appointed seats, have a purse or shoes made from animal hide, facial products, so on and so forth, made from the systematic torture of millions of animals. I tend to find that fairly hypocritical and 'not very conscious' - if they want to throw those terms around. Even so, aside from those products I listed above - most people that say these things don't realize that they themselves, on some level, are participating in the systematic mindless slaughter via things they may own/eat/wear/etc; the nails go very deep - often out of sight.

To be intimately connected with Death, to feel it, to feel the emotions it produces in the act of killing another animal is something very few will ever do or understand; there's feelings there that transcend petty discussion of the matter. A deep found gratitude and respect; a reverence - something that most people that blindly point the finger can't fully grasp; something that most people in our culture are lacking to some degree.

(this isnt pointed at anyone here; just speaking from personal experience; love you guys)

here's a great poem by khalil gibran; one that strikes home on my thoughts.

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.
But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship.
And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.


When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."


And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
"Your seeds shall live in my body,
And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart,
And your fragrance shall be my breath,
And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."


And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart,
"I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress,
And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels."
And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup;
And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.​

Good point. I'm sure you know from our conversations that I don't judge and I agree: to know life but not to know death is to know a half-truth. I know death intimately. Having this intimate knowledge, I made my decision. It feels right to me, absolutely and completely right.

What you eat is your path, not mine to judge.

I got comments from other people. Meat eaters. "You look healthier, less pale. You look more radiant. You've got some colour on your cheeks!" I'm sold!

Today has been a 95% fruit 5% cucumber and tomato day. Well, technically tomato is a fruit and cucumber too. but i like to think of them as vegetables, or "green fruits".
I added some "himalayan crystal salt" to my tomato cucumber salad. yummy. alone there's probably not enough minerals to make a difference but maybe it gives a boost to the minerals from the fruits.

I have experienced some initial bloating but that might be due to water intake as well. I read that it's common. I'm not worried and I feel great!

SpartanII thank you for mentioning hemp seed! I hope this thread can grow to be a useful source of information

 

[○]

Kind of a sidenote here; i've talked with several people in my life that would snub their nose against the idea that I would ever consider to hunt - say a deer, or something similar, saying that it's barbaric, or that im not very aware or conscious of what im doing, when in reality - in nature - that animal had led an excellent life, grazing in the expanse of the natural world; not pinned up in a systematic slaughterhouse, tortured, fed hormones and whathaveyou and then sent to brightly colored packaging in the local grocery store. I hope these people realize that that deer or whathaveyou, eventually will be killed/consumed - whether by a pack of wolves, coyotes, a bear, etc; and that the chances of it's death upon my hands is in the same ballpark as if it were to die otherwise. Realizing that something had to die to sustain something else is Life. Life consumes Life ..no matter what semantics or ideals you attempt to attach. That is Life; point blank.

The funny thing about these various statements that people make regarding this is that while they sit there and point the finger so to speak, they are driving around in their leather appointed seats, have a purse or shoes made from animal hide, facial products, so on and so forth, made from the systematic torture of millions of animals. I tend to find that fairly hypocritical and 'not very conscious' - if they want to throw those terms around. Even so, aside from those products I listed above - most people that say these things don't realize that they themselves, on some level, are participating in the systematic mindless slaughter via things they may own/eat/wear/etc; the nails go very deep - often out of sight.

To be intimately connected with Death, to feel it, to feel the emotions it produces in the act of killing another animal is something very few will ever do or understand; there's feelings there that transcend petty discussion of the matter. A deep found gratitude and respect; a reverence - something that most people that blindly point the finger can't fully grasp; something that most people in our culture are lacking to some degree.

(this isnt pointed at anyone here; just speaking from personal experience; love you guys)

here's a great poem by khalil gibran; one that strikes home on my thoughts.

Would that you could live on the fragrance of the earth, and like an air plant be sustained by the light.
But since you must kill to eat, and rob the newly born of its mother's milk to quench your thirst, let it then be an act of worship.
And let your board stand an altar on which the pure and the innocent of forest and plain are sacrificed for that which is purer and still more innocent in man.


When you kill a beast say to him in your heart,
"By the same power that slays you, I too am slain; and I too shall be consumed.
For the law that delivered you into my hand shall deliver me into a mightier hand.
Your blood and my blood is naught but the sap that feeds the tree of heaven."


And when you crush an apple with your teeth, say to it in your heart,
"Your seeds shall live in my body,
And the buds of your tomorrow shall blossom in my heart,
And your fragrance shall be my breath,
And together we shall rejoice through all the seasons."


And in the autumn, when you gather the grapes of your vineyards for the winepress, say in your heart,
"I too am a vineyard, and my fruit shall be gathered for the winepress,
And like new wine I shall be kept in eternal vessels."
And in winter, when you draw the wine, let there be in your heart a song for each cup;
And let there be in the song a remembrance for the autumn days, and for the vineyard, and for the winepress.​

Good point. I'm sure you know from our conversations that I don't judge and I agree: to know life but not to know death is to know a half-truth. I know death intimately. Having this intimate knowledge, I made my decision. It feels right to me, absolutely and completely right.

What you eat is your path, not mine to judge.

I got comments from other people. Meat eaters. "You look healthier, less pale. You look more radiant. You've got some colour on your cheeks!" I'm sold!

Today has been a 95% fruit 5% cucumber and tomato day. Well, technically tomato is a fruit and cucumber too. but i like to think of them as vegetables, or "green fruits".
I added some "himalayan crystal salt" to my tomato cucumber salad. yummy. alone there's probably not enough minerals to make a difference but maybe it gives a boost to the minerals from the fruits.

I have experienced some initial bloating but that might be due to water intake as well. I read that it's common. I'm not worried and I feel great!

SpartanII thank you for mentioning hemp seed! I hope this thread can grow to be a useful source of information

 

[inaniel]

I'm surprised hemp seed wasn't mentioned in this thread.:surprised

It's loaded with vitamins, minerals, a good source of vegan protein, essential fatty acids, fiber, has the full amino acid profile, and tastes great!

You can make a quick, simple, vegan meal-replacement shake with ground hemp seed, hemp protein powder, and coconut milk.

+1


just for the record, i think its perfectly feasible to consume an all fruit diet, or raw vegan diet. I have done the latter for the better part of the previous several years. I went actually a year and a half or so without consuming fruit even, just greens, seeds and raw oils. some vegetable fruits like cucumber and tomoato, zucchini, etc. it's not difficult, i felt great. had to stop for financial reasons but i will continue as soon as I'm able to.



I find the idea that humans evolved to eat any specific way to be rather silly. Why do certain people have difficulty eating raw vegan? Why do certain people have trouble eating meat and dairy products? Grains? Who knows, but the truth is heaps of people thrive on all sorts of different diets. I've seen people thrive eating a standard american diet even. That seems to be a unique aspect of the human experience, we have the ability to make a choice, and later alter that choice based on how we feel. They say modern humans have been here for hundreds of thousands of years, and our ancestors millions of years before that. To think there is only one way to eat for humans during that entire time would be laughable.



Its strange to me that discussions on eating, on any sort of public forum, tend to turn into a sort of pissing contest, a 'you should eat this way instead because humans are meant to' sort of thing. I think its much more complex than that.



I'm glad you feel well, amandanita.

 

[amandanita]

I find the idea that humans evolved to eat any specific way to be rather silly. Why do certain people have difficulty eating raw vegan? Why do certain people have trouble eating meat and dairy products? Grains? Who knows, but the truth is heaps of people thrive on all sorts of different diets. I've seen people thrive eating a standard american diet even. That seems to be a unique aspect of the human experience, we have the ability to make a choice, and later alter that choice based on how we feel. They say modern humans have been here for hundreds of thousands of years, and our ancestors millions of years before that. To think there is only one way to eat for humans during that entire time would be laughable.



Its strange to me that discussions on eating, on any sort of public forum, tend to turn into a sort of pissing contest, a 'you should eat this way instead because humans are meant to' sort of thing. I think its much more complex than that.



I'm glad you feel well, amandanita.

Thank you for these words. I'm glad too. If after weeks/months i notice any negative effects, then I will change things up and see what's causing them. For now, I seem to be doing fine like this, it seems my body is just adjusting to the change and that means occasional bloating. But that's okay despite the bloating i feel much better, more energetic and alert than i did before. i feel healthier. i think that's what's important

 

[amandanita]

Update: well, it's been a week. Since I started about ~70-75% of my calories have come from sweet fruits. The rest have come from vegetables, vegetable (non-sweet) fruits, oats, rice and soy milk. Yes, I've eaten a lot of fruits. I haven't been counting calories but I counted them afterwards (just now) to get the rough numbers.

So far I've experienced...

[*] bloating/initial weight gain (it should be mostly/only water)
[*] much more energy and endurance when I run outside, I'm more active, less tired, generally more "springy"
[*] every single person who's seen me has said I look better and healthier!
[*] it takes your body time to adjust to a new diet, no matter what it is
[*] fruits can cause cravings (of more fruits, at least for me )
[*] switching to fruitarian/raw vegan will have effect on your toilet visits

I've tried eating 1-2 types of fruits in one day, many types of fruits, fruits + vegetables + oats, 1 type of fruit and 2 types of vegetables.

I've learned that the less different kinds of food I eat the easier it is for my body. The less negative effects like bloating/gas. I also feel better if there's a longer period of not eating. Eating fruits and veggies all day long and not hitting 2000 calories seems like fun, but I don't feel like it's a healthy thing to do. Personally, I'll try to stick to less meals and more time between them.

Also because of feeling healthiest when eating only one kind of food in one day, I'm going to do alternating mono days. That way I can still get all the different nutrients from different foods, I just won't be eating the different foods on the same day! It's what I think works for me, it might not work for you.

I learned more about vitamin b12! "The 2000 Tufts University study found no correlation between eating meat and differences in B12 serum levels." Vitamin b12 deficiency can be caused by many things, and an insufficient dietary intake is a minor reason. Most of the reasons have to do with preexisting conditions, disease or trauma to the colon. Vegans aren't automatically at a greater risk The soy milk I use has vitamin b12 added to it. If you drink soy milk, look for b12 reinforced soy milk.

My anaemia symptoms have lessened considerably and I no longer look so pale It's probably because of the iron in all the berries and fruits I've been eating and the iron in the soy milk! (Soy beans are high in iron) Also I've been eating oatmeal and oatmeal has iron too.

I'm adding potatoes to my diet! Potatoes are rich in iron

I'm removing oats from my diet. I don't feel so great about eating grains!

I'm not sure what my body will think of all the starch. That's why I'm doing some potato only days to see how my body reacts to potatoes without being confused by any other vegetables/fruits. If potatoes work for me I'll be having some potato days between my vegetable and fruit days.

I'm going to keep the fruit days at fewer than my non-fruit days. I think there's a point to a high sugar diet encouraging inflammation or harmful bacteria and cravings. I'm not sure but it's possible. Starch is also broken down to sugar, another reason I'm not sure about the potatoes. And third reason is that I'm not sure if I want to eat too much cooked food and if I eat potatoes I cook (boil) them.
If potatoes don't work for me, I'll find something else

I know it takes time to adjust to any changes in a diet. More than just a few days. I'm experimenting to see how my body reacts to different things initially. I think if I listen to my body even before it's adjusted to a new thing it can tell me some things that help me plan my diet better.