Fruitarian or vegan?

[Synkromystic]

These places can have a very judgmental way of writing and creating a us/them kind of envoirment where it ends up into a cultish thing.

And what about the meat eaters cult?

There is a alot of pseudo science around in the rawfood/detox/vegan circles.
A huge industry in herbal supplements is driven by lies,half truths and imoral business practises.

There is ALSO loads of pseudo science surrounding the dairy and meat industries. Remember the ''Milk, it does a body good'' campaign. Financed by the dairy industry...Well if you dont know, cow milk contains puss...Non organic milk contains, Growth hormones, pesticdes, gmos, and antibiotics, to name a few.....If you think those are good for you....keep drinking the kool aid.

So what is so moral about factory farming? dairy farming included where the cows are milked almost constantly. At Alot of the dairy factory farms, they never take the milking machine off of the cows, and that is why the cows bleed, and the wounds get infected, and the blood and puss and infection gets into the milk... MMmmm, delicious

People just dont want to accept that they have been tricked by some charming guru with a nice lifestyle choice they have bought.

Exactly!!! Looked in the mirror lately?

I think where we can probably agree on is that humans are immoral, and will often times do anything to make some money and have some power. Thus you see ALL industries infected with sadistic, cult like practices....

And it's difficult to cut through the bs, when you've been indoctrinated into it your whole life. One fights for the system that is actually controlling him/her...

As the late, great, DmnStr8 said....wake up....lol...j/k








[/quote]

 

[endlessness]

It's important to have a nuanced approach, otherwise contradictions appear quick enough.

Are you using a computer? Guess what, the extraction of the conflict minerals necessary for the production of that computer and the direct effect on animals (for example the gorillas and elephants being killed by Coltan miners) means if you use any kind of technology you are also creating some suffering.

While you may say that you have no choice since there are thus far (AFAIK) no sustainably ethically produced electronics (though some attempts start like the FairPhone), it is still a choice to use it or not. One could always move to nature and just totally live off the land. But I suppose you make a choice, a conscious choice, and you decide that it is worth it for some reason or other, in much the same way that maybe some meat eater makes a conscious choice. Maybe a hunter that doesn't use technology creates less suffering than a computer-using vegetarian? I'm not sure...

What about the fact that animals themselves kill and torture other animals, does that count in the equation? It's not like nature is a disney fairy tale.. Did you ever go to a tropical nature place? Death and suffering is all over, and it ain't easy. Or even just look at house pets like cats, they don't just hunt to eat, they often hunt and create suffering for an animal that they later just leave to rot.

Or what about vegetarians/vegans that are buying soya product farmed in Brazil which is destroying the amazon? Ok, most soya is indeed grown for feeding cattle and pigs and chicken, but still, eating tofu might not be as 'suffering free' as some suppose. Or what about the crappy conditions in many of the vegetable growing farms, with poorly paid immigrants, and all the pesticides and what not, does that not count? Maybe a hunted animal or the chicken from the neighbour that lived in well nature and died quickly might be more ethical than eating big monoculture vegetables? Again, I don't know the answers, but I think these are valid questions.

Now, this doesn't mean that consciously chosing one's diet is a lost case or a bad decision, I'm really for it, and I certainly practice it myself. But it's very important to be nuanced, and to avoid judging people, because there are so many factors involved. Rather I think it's more effective to focus on oneself, and try to incorporate as many of these factors into one's arguments as possible, otherwise it quickly becomes polarized and factually incorrect or intellectually dishonest (not accusing you of that, by the way, just saying in general).

I think it's pretty clear that one should grow as much food as they can (if they can), and to source as much wild food from nearby areas as possible (if they can), and to buy locally sourced organic products from small farmers (im sure you get the point)... And for those eating meat, its also clear that supporting mass meat industry results in plenty of suffering, but I still don't think this is necessarily something inherent to meat itself, and I very much respect people who eat meat and yet try to not overindulge and when they eat, try as much as possible to have meat from hunting or from local farmers or so on.

Lets just try to get a little bit closer to an ideal state where we are in harmony with as many beings as possible, while at the same time empathic towards other human beings who seem like they might be farther away in one aspect of their path (for example eating meat), because for all we know they might be much closer to that harmonious state in yet another area that we arent. I rather ask and learn, and help others in their own questions when possible, instead of judging and arguing. IMO at least

 

[Synkromystic]

Endlessness. You make some great points.

As far as us being part of ''nature''. We are but, we have separated quite a bit from our instinctual mind, and have a highly developed intellectual mind. This clearly separates us from the rest of the animals. But I don't agree with your argument, that because there is suffering, it is ok for us to add more too it! There are ways around it!!!

My goal is the reduction of suffering, yet I am limited by my abilities, and by my desire. But as my desire to stop participating in the suffering grows, so does my ability...so it is a very gradual process for me, and for all of us. For me it goes back to ''What you feed, grows'' What direction do you want to take? Is one complacent in the suffering, admitting one is helpless, or is one driven by a desire for more? Obviously, we can all choose.

Maybe we should start a new thread if anyone wants to expand on this, because this is such a complex philosophical issue.



''But it's very important to be nuanced, and to avoid judging people, because there are so many factors involved. ''

Great point. I am a very non judgmental person, yet I can come across as judgmental sometimes, especially on the internet i would imagine. I only want to offer people a viewpoint on how there actions are affecting them and their surroundings. They can accept or reject it. I don't wish to control anyone or anything..only myself.

"Lets just try to get a little bit closer to an ideal state where we are in harmony with as many beings as possible, while at the same time empathic towards other human beings who seem like they might be farther away in one aspect of their path (for example eating meat), because for all we know they might be much closer to that harmonious state in yet another area that we arent. I rather ask and learn, and help others in their own questions when possible, instead of judging and arguing. IMO at least Smile"

YES.

But, I feel it is very important to push limits. Complacency is a dangerous phenomenon. Offering different viewpoints, and ''pushing limits' through a computer one can easily be mis interpreted. I try to be very direct and to the point, and I can see how it can be mis-interpreted. Believe it or not, i'm actually one of the most laid back, care free people that I know, and striving to become more so

Edit: And it's not really eating meat that bothers me. It's the disrespect for the animals that I find horrendous. If one was able to eat meat like the native americans did, that I can completely understand, although it is not for me. They respected the animal, and were truly grateful for it's life being able to sustain theirs. They didn't waste a bit of the animal either. They loved the animal with all their heart.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

And it's not really eating meat that bothers me. It's the disrespect for the animals that I find horrendous.

Yup. Maybe it's just me, but once I was high on shrooms watching a cow and her calf chilling out on the meadows, enjoying life. The notion of killing these two creatures stroke me in the same fashion as gassing some jews or screwing some natives over. Weird, I mean there are vegan strongmen living off 150€ for food per month, not having deficits. Maybe I'm not THAT strong living off 150€ per month vegan style, I'm probably a little lazy and maybe I have some double standards, but I'm happy with 98% vegetarianism for 180€.

I mean, as I said, maybe it's just me, but here's a test you could try: drop a strong psychedelic and watch your 'food' while it's alive. You can eat a steak afterwards? Really? If so, maybe smoalk moar?

Hope I'm not preachy, just offering a perspective.

Addendum: I see humanity in a learning mode. Meat was once the factor that made men dominate the earth for our current lifestyle. Now with a huge neocortex, crazy chemists & understanding of molecular mechanics, we should be able to provide tasty non-animal based patties for the masses. Yummy patties with a hot BBQ sauce, engineered to provide all the beneficial amino and fatty acids.

In a low carb, multimineral, high in fiber bun. With some lettuce and vegan cheese. Along a carbonated juice enriched with all the antioxidants and vitamins one needs per day. In 30 different exotic flavors. Why eat dead animals then?

Why burn down the Amazon rainforest for non native soy? Why not build huge factories with bio reactors synthesizing all the necessary amino acids, peptides and what not? Using cows as a amino acid bio reactor is stone age for me. Or screwing some whales over, because that's the way we always did. The model that worked yesterday may not work tomorrow.

 

[Synkromystic]

And it's not really eating meat that bothers me. It's the disrespect for the animals that I find horrendous.

Yup. Maybe it's just me, but once I was high on shrooms watching a cow and her calf chilling out on the meadows, enjoying life. The notion of killing these two creatures stroke me in the same fashion as gassing some jews or screwing some natives over. Weird, I mean there are vegan strongmen living off 150€ for food per month, not having deficits. Maybe I'm not THAT strong living off 150€ per month vegan style, I'm probably a little lazy and maybe I have some double standards, but I'm happy with 98% vegetarianism for 180€.

I mean, as I said, maybe it's just me, but here's a test you could try: drop a strong psychedelic and watch your 'food' while it's alive. You can eat a steak afterwards? Really? If so, maybe smoalk moar?

Hope I'm not preachy, just offering a perspective.

Addendum: I see humanity in a learning mode. Meat was once the factor that made men dominate the earth for our current lifestyle. Now with a huge neocortex, crazy chemists & understanding of molecular mechanics, we should be able to provide tasty non-animal based patties for the masses. Yummy patties with a hot BBQ sauce, engineered to provide all the beneficial amino and fatty acids.

In a low carb, multimineral, high in fiber bun. With some lettuce and vegan cheese. Along a carbonated juice enriched with all the antioxidants and vitamins one needs per day. In 30 different exotic flavors. Why eat dead animals then?

Why burn down the Amazon rainforest for non native soy? Why not build huge factories with bio reactors synthesizing all the necessary amino acids, peptides and what not? Using cows as a amino acid bio reactor is stone age for me. Or screwing some whales over, because that's the way we always did. The model that worked yesterday may not work tomorrow.

The meat and dairy industries are massive in size, and are very very powerful. They have the money to lobby the politicians (buy them), and the money to buy the science (to an extent). For most people, it's not about what's right, or moral, its about instant gratification. It's only about what I want at the cost of the environment. Changing is difficult (I know from personal experience). Most people suffer from cognitive dissonance and the system is built to keep the system alive.

There are so many viable options to factory farming, yet not many people really care, because it takes desire, compassion, understanding and most importantly critical thinking to integrate the alternatives.... It's just too much to ask for most people, but that's no excuse. We have the alternatives and it's a dangerous game to play, willfully, intentionally, increasing the suffering on this earth. And this desire is no longer based on necessity, where as hundreds of years ago, it was nearly impossible to be a vegan, unless you were in India or South America. Although, the Jain Tradition is a fascinating one!!!

Most people these days are so divorced from reality, living in their own little bubbles of illusion and they do almost anything to prevent it from being popped.

Like I said in a previous post, people have been indoctrinated into the system of ''meat and dairy are the only way''. It's starting to change a bit now, but will take alot of time, and most people with fight to the death to keep the current system in place.

Your absolutely correct UFOstrahlen, the system is completely unsustainable. There's an old native american saying that goes something like. ''When the Last Tree Is Cut Down, the Last Fish Eaten, and the Last Stream Poisoned, You Will Realize That You Cannot Eat Money''

I am part of the problem, but I am also part of the solution. Which one do I feed?

 

[roninsina]

Just to add a personal anecdote. The two separate, year long periods I spent as a raw vegan were the most perceptibly healthy periods of my life. My mental acuity, especially short term memory, was markedly superior with sharp increase before and a slow decline after these periods. I work an extremely physically challenging job and found the energy to work out after a full shift, most frequently choosing to bicycle thirty miles or more and punctuated by windsprints up 22 flights of stairs. During the first year long period, I spent about three months as a fruitarian with my only 'supplement' being dried kelp. I had days where I was satisfied with only a piece or two of sweet fruit as there was a perceptible saturation of nutrients in my blood from meals of previous days. The associated states of consciousness alone, made this fruitarian period completely worth my time but I would only consider that a beneficial side effect.

The second period was an attempt to organize a raw cooperative home (the diet can be somewhat socially alienating). We ate less straight produce and more of the faddy 'gourmet raw' sort of a diet with abundant mixes of ingredients (I even made a raw 'hamburger' with raw-b-que sauce) . Not quite the benefits of my previous experience but subjectively, far superior health to what I've ever experienced otherwise. Both periods being marked by a long standing cavity along the gum line of my wisdom tooth filling with pulp and hardening for long enough to avoid unnecessary dentistry for a few years.

Though I was convinced at the time that this was the best lifestyle for everyone and I laughed at ideas like Ablood types being suited to vegetarianism and Otypes to meat based diets, I came to learn that some people could suffer, either regardless of or possibly because of it. One of my house brothers lost his substantial body fat at such a rapid rate that he acquired gall stones as a result. Another woman I know through friends has suffered cardiovascular issues and high cholesterol despite decades of veganism, raw or otherwise.

I know there are the poster child straw men who are completely unaware of the protein and b12 in mushrooms and in microorganism based supplements. Of how to combine vegetable based amino acids if they feel their body is in need of protein. Of how to cleanse the villi of plaque and matted gluten to dramatically increase bioavailability. Of when to quit if/when their body starts to tell them it's simply not going to work for them. These folks are not good arguments against the lifestyle IMO as I would speculate many are likely to suffer under most conditions where they are responsible for their own diets.

I would echo the sentiments of others in this thread and say to experiment until you find what's right for you. If you feel you are suffering as a result of a lack of animal based protein then, by all means, pursue that no matter what others may think. If you want to mono-diet on watermelon for a week before fasting for another week because it makes you feel like a million bucks, then that's really nobodies business but your own, as well.




Please accept my apologies for a slow response to any comments on this post as I will be internet free for a short and joyous period.

 

[SHroomtroll]

These places can have a very judgmental way of writing and creating a us/them kind of envoirment where it ends up into a cultish thing.

And what about the meat eaters cult?

Please specify what this even means?
Basicly all cultures except a handful have lived on mostly a mixed diet containing as much meat as they could get their hands on.
Vegan diets have in history mostly been a forced option.

There is a alot of pseudo science around in the rawfood/detox/vegan circles.
A huge industry in herbal supplements is driven by lies,half truths and imoral business practises.

There is ALSO loads of pseudo science surrounding the dairy and meat industries. Remember the ''Milk, it does a body good'' campaign. Financed by the dairy industry...Well if you dont know, cow milk contains puss...Non organic milk contains, Growth hormones, pesticdes, gmos, and antibiotics, to name a few.....If you think those are good for you....keep drinking the kool aid.

So what is so moral about factory farming? dairy farming included where the cows are milked almost constantly. At Alot of the dairy factory farms, they never take the milking machine off of the cows, and that is why the cows bleed, and the wounds get infected, and the blood and puss and infection gets into the milk... MMmmm, delicious

I agree 100% that chemicals and hormones are a huge issue in todays food industry.
I wrote this pretty clearly.

The solution?? buy freerange organic meats only, and raw milk.
Its not hard if you actually try.

About the pus in milk i cant actually comment since ive never done any research about it.
Here is a link arguing against it

Is there Pus in Milk? | Dairy Moos

Who wants to drink milk if it has pus in it? Is there really pus in milk

www.dairymoos.com

Anyway i only drink raw milk so its a non issue for me, some people are lactose intolerant or have other issues with it.
But im not forcing anyone to drink it.
It can be good for some people and not for others.

People just dont want to accept that they have been tricked by some charming guru with a nice lifestyle choice they have bought.

Exactly!!! Looked in the mirror lately?

I think where we can probably agree on is that humans are immoral, and will often times do anything to make some money and have some power. Thus you see ALL industries infected with sadistic, cult like practices....

And it's difficult to cut through the bs, when you've been indoctrinated into it your whole life. One fights for the system that is actually controlling him/her...

As the late, great, DmnStr8 said....wake up....lol...j/k


Why do you feel the need to attack my character?
Im not invested in the food industry in any way or form.
I do have some education about this subject but i dont claim to be some kind of authority.

I do however have over 12years of experience training and dieting on a high level since im a athlete.
Ive researched these things for 10years and regurly talk to people in all camps.

Please specify how im "indoctrinated" when im just stating what science is telling us so far.
Also if the most fit people in the world eat in a certain way its by far the better anecdot
than what semi delusional hippies spew.

And for your information in usually called a hippie in these circles cause i am very open minded in general.
Im just educated enough to not buy on every claim that some random dude on the internet says.

So please dont take my word for anything, just take your time looking into any claim that some diet guru is making.
Usually its the simple things that work, eat balanced clean food. alot of veggies and fruits and good quality meats.
Eat both raw and cooked, avoid chemicals etc.
The important take away here is that you need a full profile of macro and micro nutrients and should avoid proccesed foods containing chemicals.
Other than that it doesnt really matter what you call yourself.

[/quote]

 

[SHroomtroll]

And it's not really eating meat that bothers me. It's the disrespect for the animals that I find horrendous.

Yup. Maybe it's just me, but once I was high on shrooms watching a cow and her calf chilling out on the meadows, enjoying life. The notion of killing these two creatures stroke me in the same fashion as gassing some jews or screwing some natives over. Weird, I mean there are vegan strongmen living off 150€ for food per month, not having deficits. Maybe I'm not THAT strong living off 150€ per month vegan style, I'm probably a little lazy and maybe I have some double standards, but I'm happy with 98% vegetarianism for 180€.

I mean, as I said, maybe it's just me, but here's a test you could try: drop a strong psychedelic and watch your 'food' while it's alive. You can eat a steak afterwards? Really? If so, maybe smoalk moar?

Hope I'm not preachy, just offering a perspective.

Addendum: I see humanity in a learning mode. Meat was once the factor that made men dominate the earth for our current lifestyle. Now with a huge neocortex, crazy chemists & understanding of molecular mechanics, we should be able to provide tasty non-animal based patties for the masses. Yummy patties with a hot BBQ sauce, engineered to provide all the beneficial amino and fatty acids.

In a low carb, multimineral, high in fiber bun. With some lettuce and vegan cheese. Along a carbonated juice enriched with all the antioxidants and vitamins one needs per day. In 30 different exotic flavors. Why eat dead animals then?

Why burn down the Amazon rainforest for non native soy? Why not build huge factories with bio reactors synthesizing all the necessary amino acids, peptides and what not? Using cows as a amino acid bio reactor is stone age for me. Or screwing some whales over, because that's the way we always did. The model that worked yesterday may not work tomorrow.

The meat and dairy industries are massive in size, and are very very powerful. They have the money to lobby the politicians (buy them), and the money to buy the science (to an extent). For most people, it's not about what's right, or moral, its about instant gratification. It's only about what I want at the cost of the environment. Changing is difficult (I know from personal experience). Most people suffer from cognitive dissonance and the system is built to keep the system alive.

This might be trur to the extent that regular people who dont read peer reviewed studies can be tricked into believing what a single biased study claims.
Actually most of the claims that vegans make for the health benefits over meat eaters does this.
The main source they use is the awful "china study" that used like 10different variables to conclude that red meat caused all kinds of health issues.
Just google the china study and you will finds tons of info just tearing it apart.
However the field is so huge that there are plently of of non biased researchers out there who keeps the info non biased.
Its very conspiratory to actually believe that "they" control all the research in such a huge way that we cant know whats really good for us.

Do you really believe that all the positive research about cannabis or psychedelics would be "allowed" to exist if that were true??

There are so many viable options to factory farming, yet not many people really care, because it takes desire, compassion, understanding and most importantly critical thinking to integrate the alternatives.... It's just too much to ask for most people, but that's no excuse. We have the alternatives and it's a dangerous game to play, willfully, intentionally, increasing the suffering on this earth. And this desire is no longer based on necessity, where as hundreds of years ago, it was nearly impossible to be a vegan, unless you were in India or South America. Although, the Jain Tradition is a fascinating one!!!

Most people these days are so divorced from reality, living in their own little bubbles of illusion and they do almost anything to prevent it from being popped.

Like I said in a previous post, people have been indoctrinated into the system of ''meat and dairy are the only way''. It's starting to change a bit now, but will take alot of time, and most people with fight to the death to keep the current system in place.


I do agree that most people are clueless and just want to keep doing what they do.
the standard western diet is awful with way to much proccesed carbs and fats and almost no living foods like organic raw veggies.
But are we even arguing this?

Your absolutely correct UFOstrahlen, the system is completely unsustainable. There's an old native american saying that goes something like. ''When the Last Tree Is Cut Down, the Last Fish Eaten, and the Last Stream Poisoned, You Will Realize That You Cannot Eat Money''

I am part of the problem, but I am also part of the solution. Which one do I feed?

 

[obliguhl]

Shroomtroll is the voice of reason in this thread.

Shroomtroll, I definitely see some of your points but I do agree with inaniel that if you claim some scientific facts, might as well back them up, and someone's webpage and books don't cut it IMO.... A peer reviewed paper would be more reliable.

That's like christians demanding science to prove that there "is no god". There is the staus quo, and there is the challenging opinion which has to prove its validity, not the other way around.

The cultish behaviour of raw vegans isn't necessarly a sufficient argument against their dietary lifestyle, but it does hinders the seeker to find out whats what. There are of course, more dimensions to it. For instance, diet is strongly intertwined with health and biomedicine kinda lacks the human component of true healing, which "gurus" can provide. Still, someone only interested in scientific facts, should not listen to these types and do their own research.

The idea that the typical person has the discipline and financial means to support a healthy diet with enough protein is preposterous. Worse, if you are eating fruits and vegetables only, you're not getting enough fats. Who disputes all that? I mean, it is certainly a good idea to keep an open mind, otherwise we'd all just eat burgers and candy just like they tell us to. But buying into a very VERY extreme diet such as fruitarianism or raw veganism warrants a good and thorough explanation of those involved.

It ist most certainly NOT the other way around.

 

[SHroomtroll]

I guess i should write down my basic diet philosophy so people dont assume to much of my lifestyle or bias.


I use something called the warrior diet, its based on how the nomadic people of ancient rome ate although modified for a modern lifestyle.

Basicly it seperates every day into 2cycles,undereating during the day and overeating during the eveneing.

So during the day i fast eating only raw veggies (mostly in fresh juices)
And some quick protein sources like eggs or milk protein like cottage cheese or whey.

This gives me a daily detox where my body can burn through waste that has built up from the last evenings big meal.
It also keeps me focused since im slightly hungry all day.
For me its a spirutual thing to fast daily and it reminds me of not overconsuming since i live in a society where i could binge on food all day if i choose to.
This is also a slightly catabolic state so i burn alot of fat during this phase.


Around 2-4pm i break my fast with a smoothie with mixed berries, some banana and avocado, coconut oil, seeds and alot of whey protein.
After this i just keep eating how much i need to untill 9pm ish.
Usually i have a feast like meal with alot of smalla dishes and a huge portion of high quality meat/fish/poultry and alot of cooked veggies.
I vary high carb days with high fat days to not overtax my digestive system.


My overall kcal intake is about 3000 per day with this style of eating, i weigh about 80kg´s so i burn alot training almost every day.


Sometimes i do 24hour fasts aswell to fully empty my system and reset my tastebuds, also this reminds me of why i eat food in the first place.
I love good food but i dont eat for taste or in any emotional way.
Ive found out through many years of research how to eat in the best possible way for me.

This is what everyone needs to do, not copy my style of eating or anything.
But to research it yourself, get some respected litteraure in the subject and read it all.
Then google around various alternative sources and see if it still makes sense.
Some philosophies in various raw food diets are really good.
Other are pure lies used to sell an agenda.
Learn how to spot the differences and you will come far.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

And this desire is no longer based on necessity, where as hundreds of years ago, it was nearly impossible to be a vegan, unless you were in India or South America. Although, the Jain Tradition is a fascinating one!!!

True that, I would say that even before the arrival of the internet (~1995) it was hard to be a vegetarian or vegan, because where would you get your information from? From the nutritionists?
They'd tell you that a little meat won't hurt. From the doctors? Part of the patients recovery meals in clinics is still meat. Or from the hippie community, experimenting with esoteric knowledge, probably leading to deficiencies?

All the supplements needed to make this lifestyle easier weren't around 20 years ago or were insanely expensive. Creatine? Soy isolate? DHA, EPA? This stuff wasn't really around, especially in Europe. The US is more advanced in this field, so you may have it easier there.

But now it's affordable and you have scientific opinions like these:

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately
planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are
healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the
prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets
are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including
pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/2009_ADA_position_paper.pdf

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition professionals, with close to 72,000 members. After nearly 100 years as the American Dietetic Association (ADA), the organization officially changed its name to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (A.N.D.) in 2012.[2] The organization’s members are primarily registered dietitian nutritionists (RDs or RDNs) and dietetic technicians as well as many researchers, educators, students, nurses, physicians, pharmacists, clinical and community dietetics professionals, consultants and food service managers.[3]

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I mean, what proof do people need, if it weren't from professionals?

But agreed, change takes time, proper (!) knowledge must be acquired and certain vegan lifestyles may need $500 per month on the food/supplement bill. Not so easy, I'm still not vegan, it may take me another 10 or 20 years.

 

[amandanita]

And this desire is no longer based on necessity, where as hundreds of years ago, it was nearly impossible to be a vegan, unless you were in India or South America. Although, the Jain Tradition is a fascinating one!!!

True that, I would say that even before the arrival of the internet (~1995) it was hard to be a vegetarian or vegan, because where would you get your information from? From the nutritionists?
They'd tell you that a little meat won't hurt. From the doctors? Part of the patients recovery meals in clinics is still meat. Or from the hippie community, experimenting with esoteric knowledge, probably leading to deficiencies?

All the supplements needed to make this lifestyle easier weren't around 20 years ago or were insanely expensive. Creatine? Soy isolate? DHA, EPA? This stuff wasn't really around, especially in Europe. The US is more advanced in this field, so you may have it easier there.

But now it's affordable and you have scientific opinions like these:

It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately
planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are
healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the
prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets
are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including
pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/2009_ADA_position_paper.pdf

The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics is the United States' largest organization of food and nutrition professionals, with close to 72,000 members. After nearly 100 years as the American Dietetic Association (ADA), the organization officially changed its name to the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics (A.N.D.) in 2012.[2] The organization’s members are primarily registered dietitian nutritionists (RDs or RDNs) and dietetic technicians as well as many researchers, educators, students, nurses, physicians, pharmacists, clinical and community dietetics professionals, consultants and food service managers.[3]

Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I mean, what proof do people need, if it weren't from professionals?

But agreed, change takes time, proper (!) knowledge must be acquired and certain vegan lifestyles may need $500 per month on the food/supplement bill. Not so easy, I'm still not vegan, it may take me another 10 or 20 years.

Thank you for this.

On another note, people here seem to argue for the sake of arguing, leading to no learning, no understanding, and only more arguing.

It is not the year 50. It is not the year 1980. It is the year 2015.

Some people have $500 / month for food. Or $5000. Not that I need anywhere near that to be a vegan where I live. B12? I have thousands of edible mushrooms (thank you roninsina for reminding me that mushrooms have b12!) growing all around me, I simply have to walk out my door (at least a little later in autumn when they're in season). Protein? I have hundreds of edible wild plants growing all around me that are 20-40% protein by dry weight (including most of the essential amino acids.) All I have to do is pick them. That's $0 for adequate protein and b12 from natural sources.
Instead, I started with fruits that I had to pay money for for personal reasons (it was easier for me to change my diet by starting with fruits. )
Berries are free for me, apples as well. I'm still eating frozen berries from last year, there was about 1 ton of them originally. (that's 2200 lbs of berries/year. $0 for me. No toxic pesticides, full of vitamins.)
You (not you, Ufostrahlen, but anyone) cannot assume things about someone's level of financial security, their circumstances or their level of knowledge on nutrition on metabolism and then base your arguments around those assumptions. That's called circular logic. Your arguments and conclusions will apply to someone out there, but don't expect it to be the person you're wanting to argue against, unless you have divine knowledge of that person's circumstances.

It's true that it's exceptionally easy for me to be a raw vegan and get all the protein, vitamins and minerals I need. It's also true that that's not what I'm at the moment because I'm still in the process of transitioning and seeing what works for me. That doesn't mean your "average person" can't become a healthy vegan. It just means that they have to do the research, see what's available in their region, see what they can afford, and make the best possible choices they can.
Ps. I'm not saying anyone should become a (raw/mostly raw) vegan. I'm saying if someone wants to do that, they can do the research and do what they can with the resources they have under their personal circumstances. That's true for any person and any diet

Before the last 2-3 pages of comments were posted, I read this piece on fruitarianism. Look at the author of that website: he is no raw vegan. I look for information from many sources and compare the information and try to find out what's true. I have read every word on that website regarding vegan, vegetarian and fruitarian diets. There's pages upon pages upon pages of debunking of raw vegan diet related misconceptions backed with scientific reasoning, far more than you have even begun to touch here. (Not you, Ufostrahlen, this is to everyone participating in this thread.) Just a little perspective

I'm a vegan. 75% raw vegan, there's only 1 food I cook (potatoes) and that is if I eat it. I started by eating only fruits and I still have fruits-only days. I don't read vegan/fruitarian sites exclusively or even mostly to get my nutritional information. Assuming someone's level of interest, research or knowledge based on a label they adopted out of convenience, not loyalty, is in no way scientific or fact-based but simply presumptuous.

I hope that offered some perspective

The status quo is based on a diet people have been eating for hundreds of years, with the science built around it to support it. Does that sound like how science is supposed to work? First the conclusion ("meat and milk are necessary"), then the evidence to support it, no matter how shoddy and open to intepretation? That might be one way to do science, but it's probably not the best way. If you want to defend science then don't defend bad protocol. If you start with a conclusion and refuse to accept any other conclusion than the one you started with, discarding and accepting evidence accordingly, then the conclusion is not a hypotheses, it is the Absolute Truth.

Any study that compares a group of people eating meat-based protein with a group of people not eating any protein but has no control group of people eating the same amount of non-animal based protein is worthless in stating anything about the necessity of meat. They can only prove the necessity of protein in a diet.

Think of it this way: there is no past, no future, no present. There is only now and in the now you are claiming that people cannot thrive without eating meat, dairy and animal eggs. Correct? If this is your claim then please prove it. If you cannot, it's not going to be taken as a fact no matter how loud and aggressive you get in your arguments. It's going to be taken as your opinion.
Your "Status quo" argument is a not-so-clever way of making an argumentum ad populum, where you pretend like there's an overhwhelming scientific concensus on that "one true way to eat healthy" and it is the popular opinion of your cultural context/your opinion. That's simply not true.

Don't mistake politics backed up with cherry-picked/biased science (the USDA food pyramid for example) for science.

Ive found out through many years of research how to eat in the best possible way for me.

This is what everyone needs to do, not copy my style of eating or anything.

That's what I'm doing. I'm reading about nutrition, both things that support my diet and things that argue against it. I'm finding out things for myself, changing my diet to see what works for me and trying to find the best way to go.

Ps. I have never in my life (as far as I'm aware of) eaten 100g, 70g or even 50g of protein per day. Should I start eating that much protein for the first time in my life because it works for you? Probably not.

There is no one-size-fits all. Read: your diet is not a magical diet that is the best diet for everyone.

Just to add a personal anecdote. The two separate, year long periods I spent as a raw vegan were the most perceptibly healthy periods of my life. My mental acuity, especially short term memory, was markedly superior with sharp increase before and a slow decline after these periods. I work an extremely physically challenging job and found the energy to work out after a full shift, most frequently choosing to bicycle thirty miles or more and punctuated by windsprints up 22 flights of stairs. During the first year long period, I spent about three months as a fruitarian with my only 'supplement' being dried kelp. I had days where I was satisfied with only a piece or two of sweet fruit as there was a perceptible saturation of nutrients in my blood from meals of previous days. The associated states of consciousness alone, made this fruitarian period completely worth my time but I would only consider that a beneficial side effect.

The second period was an attempt to organize a raw cooperative home (the diet can be somewhat socially alienating). We ate less straight produce and more of the faddy 'gourmet raw' sort of a diet with abundant mixes of ingredients (I even made a raw 'hamburger' with raw-b-que sauce) . Not quite the benefits of my previous experience but subjectively, far superior health to what I've ever experienced otherwise. Both periods being marked by a long standing cavity along the gum line of my wisdom tooth filling with pulp and hardening for long enough to avoid unnecessary dentistry for a few years.

Though I was convinced at the time that this was the best lifestyle for everyone and I laughed at ideas like Ablood types being suited to vegetarianism and Otypes to meat based diets, I came to learn that some people could suffer, either regardless of or possibly because of it. One of my house brothers lost his substantial body fat at such a rapid rate that he acquired gall stones as a result. Another woman I know through friends has suffered cardiovascular issues and high cholesterol despite decades of veganism, raw or otherwise.

I know there are the poster child straw men who are completely unaware of the protein and b12 in mushrooms and in microorganism based supplements. Of how to combine vegetable based amino acids if they feel their body is in need of protein. Of how to cleanse the villi of plaque and matted gluten to dramatically increase bioavailability. Of when to quit if/when their body starts to tell them it's simply not going to work for them. These folks are not good arguments against the lifestyle IMO as I would speculate many are likely to suffer under most conditions where they are responsible for their own diets.

I would echo the sentiments of others in this thread and say to experiment until you find what's right for you. If you feel you are suffering as a result of a lack of animal based protein then, by all means, pursue that no matter what others may think. If you want to mono-diet on watermelon for a week before fasting for another week because it makes you feel like a million bucks, then that's really nobodies business but your own, as well.




Please accept my apologies for a slow response to any comments on this post as I will be internet free for a short and joyous period.

Thank you for sharing your experience and speaking with wisdom. I agree 100% Some people thrive on diets that make others sick. Meat or vegan, it doesn't matter, what matters is what your body is able to use to thrive and stay healthy. Not someone else's body, just your own.

 

[SHroomtroll]

Very good post amandanita, i like your aproach to the diet you choose.
But my question is how do you define health?
Do you take any tests to measure various values at any dr?
Do you exersize regurly and improve your fitness?

Im not taking a shot at you here, im just trying to make a point that what most people consider healthy or in shape is actually not.

There is a huge amount of science on that people who exersize regurly have alot less physical issues when they get old.
Weak people get the hip fractures and joint problems that comes with with aging.
Also regular resistance training improves your testosterone and growth hormone levels which actually decreases the amount you age.


So why am i mentioning this??


Well not eating enough protein will make you weak!
If you dont get enough essential aminos then your body is going to get it from somewhere else.

Where??


Your muscle tissues that is where, and that will lead to atrophy which increases the stress on all your joints since you will loose strength in the process.

So you can probably feel fine now or maybe even feel fine all your life.
However if you where to slip on the ice when you are 55, then your chance of injury would be far greater then if you had some meat.


There is a reason that we have this general vegan look, people talk ill about super models but the look im talking about is not far off.
Try googling "vegan hippie" and my point is made.


I might sound like a meathead but muscle is an important thing!
Its our first line of defence against whatever life throws at us!

We humans have always needed to be strong and fast to survive on this planet.
We have been forced to hunt and fight all of history, its the last houndred years we have devolved into these weak shells of our prime.
Our minds and technogy has totally taken over and that is why we have all these mental issues.

No human is supposed to be sedentary, energy needs to move to not stagnate.
We have different energy systems that needs to be used to keep us in balance.

We need to lift heavy things, we need to get our heartrate up we need to sweat and feel the burn in our muscles when we work hard.
This makes us improve and feel better about ourself. It also releases chemicals that makes us feel good and relaxed.
Being in hard training is the best drug there is, and ive tried most of the good ones




So if you dont get this then we are not talking about health in same way.
Im not saying everyone needs to be some kind of super athlete to pass some kind of judgement.
But one needs to understand that there is alot more to being healthy then most are willing to accept.
People have soo low standards of what is reasonable health, i live in a country where we are supposed to be close to the top in the world in this regard.
Still most people have no clue.



The best thing anyone can do is to study the scientific modell of research, just understanding how real science should look like.
This way you can have a much better filter on how to relate to various topics.

Now im fully aware that the scientific modells is not complete, this is the dmt-nexus im posting at
I actually love the alternative way of thinking aswell,i read alot of pseudo science too.
But i tend to really seperate them to avoid delussional thinking in important matters.

Ive experement all the time with my diet, various supplements or food combos.
But ive built up a good foundation of fitness and food routines.
I can control my weight depending on goals, i know exactly how i react with most foods etc.

 

[amandanita]

Very good post amandanita, i like your aproach to the diet you choose.
But my question is how do you define health?

I feel healthy, I can run and do things without feeling weak and sick.

Do you take any tests to measure various values at any dr?

Do you? Does anyone? I don't want to be labrat healthy, I want to be real-world healthy.

Do you exersize regurly and improve your fitness?

I try to do a little every now and then. But not much.

Im not taking a shot at you here, im just trying to make a point that what most people consider healthy or in shape is actually not.p

According to your standards which, to me, are just a personal opinion/preference.

There is a huge amount of science on that people who exersize regurly have alot less physical issues when they get old.

Then my entire childhood and youth spent engaging in physical hobbies 7 days a week must really help me later! Even if I'm not exercising right now. You can't go back in your life to start engaging in physical hobbies daily at age 7. I don't have to, I already did so. Have you exercised your entire life without any years in between where you didn't exercise? How many people have? You can compare things all you like but I will never come up as the most unhealthy person in the comparison.

Weak people get the hip fractures and joint problems that comes with with aging.

Well, my bones don't really break easily. I know that from experience. Genetics? Diet? Doesn't really matter, that's the physical reality for me

Also regular resistance training improves your testosterone and growth hormone levels which actually decreases the amount you age.

I think it's the opposite testosterone causes aging... like... in menopause?

So why am i mentioning this??


Well not eating enough protein will make you weak!
If you dont get enough essential aminos then your body is going to get it from somewhere else.

Do you know what is enough for me? Are you sure?

Where??


Your muscle tissues that is where, and that will lead to atrophy which increases the stress on all your joints since you will loose strength in the process.

So you can probably feel fine now or maybe even feel fine all your life.

So I can feel fine all my life...

However if you where to slip on the ice when you are 55, then your chance of injury would be far greater then if you had some meat.

...but I'll break my bones slipping on ice unless I eat meat?

I don't think i'm quite convinced yet

There is a reason that we have this general vegan look, people talk ill about super models but the look im talking about is not far off.
Try googling "vegan hippie" and my point is made.

People talk ill of many things. I see many examples of that in your post.

I might sound like a meathead

You most certainly do.

but muscle is an important thing!

Having muscle or eating muscle? Because the latter is not required for the former

Its our first line of defence against whatever life throws at us!

I've done just fine so far And please, don't assume I've sat at a computer all my life!

We humans have always needed to be strong and fast to survive on this planet.
We have been forced to hunt and fight all of history, its the last houndred years we have devolved into these weak shells of our prime.

Hunt and gather. You forgot the gathering part which was sometimes the main source of food for humanity.

Our minds and technogy has totally taken over and that is why we have all these mental issues.

No human is supposed to be sedentary, energy needs to move to not stagnate.
We have different energy systems that needs to be used to keep us in balance.

I agree with this, being sedentary all the time is not really good for your health.

We need to lift heavy things, we need to get our heartrate up we need to sweat and feel the burn in our muscles when we work hard.

This makes us improve and feel better about ourself. It also releases chemicals that makes us feel good and relaxed.
Being in hard training is the best drug there is, and ive tried most of the good ones




So if you dont get this then we are not talking about health in same way.
Im not saying everyone needs to be some kind of super athlete to pass some kind of judgement.
But one needs to understand that there is alot more to being healthy then most are willing to accept.
People have soo low standards of what is reasonable health, i live in a country where we are supposed to be close to the top in the world in this regard.
Still most people have no clue.

Well, this is just full of assumptions and opinions that don't apply to me so I'll leave it be

The best thing anyone can do is to study the scientific modell of research, just understanding how real science should look like.
This way you can have a much better filter on how to relate to various topics.

Now im fully aware that the scientific modells is not complete, this is the dmt-nexus im posting at
I actually love the alternative way of thinking aswell,i read alot of pseudo science too.
But i tend to really seperate them to avoid delussional thinking in important matters.

Ive experement all the time with my diet, various supplements or food combos.
But ive built up a good foundation of fitness and food routines.
I can control my weight depending on goals, i know exactly how i react with most foods etc.

It's good you know how your body reacts to different foods You find those things out by experimenting, like I'm doing.

 

[inaniel]

Shroomtroll is the voice of reason in this thread.

Shroomtroll, I definitely see some of your points but I do agree with inaniel that if you claim some scientific facts, might as well back them up, and someone's webpage and books don't cut it IMO.... A peer reviewed paper would be more reliable.

That's like christians demanding science to prove that there "is no god". There is the staus quo, and there is the challenging opinion which has to prove its validity, not the other way around.

Saying there is science to back up claims and then refusing to post said studies, instead linking to someone's commercial website is hardly a voice of reason. Its nonsense, actually. Your analogy doesn't make much sense here at all. God isn't something that can be proved by science. Being healthy is. There are tests, numerous ones, that can be done to test someones health. There have even been some studies posted in this thread. There is absolutely no comparison between something like 'god' and physical, tangible tests which can be performed on humans.


If someone makes a statement like "eating a raw or vegan lifestyle causes diabetes and muscle atrophy" then there needs to be some studies to back that up. If not, you're just speaking bro science. Its easy to do that, too. Want an example? 97% percent of americans are meat eaters, also 74% of americans are considered over weight. OMG MEAT DOESNT GIVE YOU STRONG BONES IT MAKES YOU FAT JUST GOOGLE IMAGE SEARCH. See, its rather easy to make things up without proper science.



Most of the things being said here aren't even worth responding to.

 

[Synkromystic]

The cultish behaviour of raw vegans isn't necessarly a sufficient argument against their dietary lifestyle, but it does hinders the seeker to find out whats what.

The same can also be said about the meat eaters cult (for the most part)

Worse, if you are eating fruits and vegetables only, you're not getting enough fats. Who disputes all that?

Olives and Avocados are both fruits, yet are extremely high in fat.

Why would you assume that raw vegans don't get enough fats? I eat sufficient amounts of raw walnuts and cashews, plus raw pistachios from time to time and other nuts. I get more than enough healthy fats, and lots of Omega 3 fats. I also consume raw coconut oil, which is a source of healthy saturated fat, mostly medium chain triglycerides that can be utilized by the liver without much work.

Just because there are alot of ignorant raw vegans out there, doesn't mean that it is an unhealthy lifestyle. I have spent years researching what the body needs and how I can achieve that goal in the most moral, compassionate way possible. If you try to throw me and many other raw vegans into the ''cult'' mentality, you are so far off. I am influenced by logic and compassion. Now obviously, this is not true for all...

 

[amandanita]

The cultish behaviour of raw vegans isn't necessarly a sufficient argument against their dietary lifestyle, but it does hinders the seeker to find out whats what.

The same can also be said about the meat eaters cult (for the most part)

I went to the chat the other day. The topic of diet came up and when it was discovered I'm vegan I got a very aggressive response from two meat-eaters. I got told to "eat veal" a few times. I never judged their meat eating but they did everything they could to try to convince me I have to eat meat. Strange...

Worse, if you are eating fruits and vegetables only, you're not getting enough fats. Who disputes all that?

Olives and Avocados are both fruits, yet are extremely high in fat.

Why would you assume that raw vegans don't get enough fats? I eat sufficient amounts of raw walnuts and cashews, plus raw pistachios from time to time and other nuts. I get more than enough healthy fats, and lots of Omega 3 fats. I also consume raw coconut oil, which is a source of healthy saturated fat, mostly medium chain triglycerides that can be utilized by the liver without much work.

Just because there are alot of ignorant raw vegans out there, doesn't mean that it is an unhealthy lifestyle. I have spent years researching what the body needs and how I can achieve that goal in the most moral, compassionate way possible. If you try to throw me and many other raw vegans into the ''cult'' mentality, you are so far off. I am influenced by logic and compassion. Now obviously, this is not true for all...

Be careful with avocados, apparently they contain a carbohydrate compound that can disrupt glucose metabolism? I only read that from one source though. I read it's the reason some people eat avocados separately from other foods but I'm not sure

Nuts are great! I have plenty of nuts at home, I just haven't worked up to eating them yet. They are pretty heavy and I want to give my body time to adjust to different changes. (A couple of weeks without enough fat isn't going to kill me!) They'll be on the menu though, in the future. I know fats are necessary and nuts and seeds are great sources for them also most places have nuts/seeds you can get locally so they don't have to be imported, if you care about that. Avocados are usually imported.

It should also be pointed out that just because someone doesn't know everysinglething about nutrition right away doesn't mean they're not willing to learn!

 

[Synkromystic]

Be careful with avocados, apparently they contain a carbohydrate compound that can disrupt glucose metabolism? I only read that from one source though. I read it's the reason some people eat avocados separately from other foods but I'm not sure

Thanks for the info! Did not know that. I will look into it some more. Avocados are one of my favorite foods. I do generally try not to ingest too many fats and carbs together, because my research, but most importantly, personal experience, points to the conclusion that too much fat in the bloodstream will interfere with insulin function

 

[DansMaTete]

I'm surprised nobody mention the Mediterranean diet which has larges and serious studies (other and another) to support it.

The traditional Mediterranean diet is characterized by a high intake of vegetables, fruits, nuts, legumes, and grains (mainly unrefined); a high intake of olive oil but a low intake of saturated lipids; a moderately high intake of fish; a low intake of dairy products, meat, and poultry; and a regular but moderate intake of alcohol (specifically wine with meals)

But if for ethical raison you don't want to use animals products (though not the main ingredients), you need to adapt it.

Of course, it's not a magic diet and it has some problems linked. Like, there is lot of fish products in it but now most of the fishes are polluted (specialy the big ones like tuna with heavy metals for exemple).

PS : for the red wine, it's only a small amount

 

[Synkromystic]

Shroomtroll. Thanks for clarifying your points, and your lifestyle. It sounds to me that you eat very healthy! I do not wish to change the way you eat, but only wish to add that you could live a vegan lifestyle with the nearly the exact same nutrient ratios that you take now. It would require a bit more work, mixing specific amino acids, etc....

Check out Frank Medrano, A vegan bodybuilder. Here's a a quick youtube link with some of his workouts.

As for my comment about the ''meat eaters cult''...a comment from amandanita sums it up quite nicely.

"I went to the chat the other day. The topic of diet came up and when it was discovered I'm vegan I got a very aggressive response from two meat-eaters. I got told to "eat veal" a few times. I never judged their meat eating but they did everything they could to try to convince me I have to eat meat. Strange... Smile"

To clarify my comment a bit more for you....It is obvious (to me at least), that there are both meat eater cults, and raw vegan cult's....using the term loosely, of course, in the same sense that you used it.... My only desire is to show that there is another way besides the age old philosophy of ''eating meat is the only way''. There is another way, that encompasses a greater form of compassion and love for all creatures great and small.

And I am backed up by science in my belief.. Thanks UFOstrahlen for this quote

''It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately
planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are
healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the
prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets
are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including
pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes.

http://www.vrg.org/nutri..._ADA_position_paper.pdf ''