Fumarate Oxide Reduction Resulting in Taffy. Help Wanted

[Apoc]

HEY! I tried to reduce 7g of oxidized fumarates by performing a technique that was suggested here, where I mix the fumarates with HCL and aluminum foil. I did that, and hoped for the best, but when I added lye, some brown taffy congealed at the top of the solution. It was really sticky. I don't know what I thought.... if I could go back in time I would act different, but I collected the taffy and threw it out, figuring it was just some byproduct or some that would only get in the way of my pulls. My pulls yielded 1g, so I lost like 85% I figure that taffy that formed at the top was probably dmt. I didn't want to deal with it because it was mixed with lye, and it was brown, and it was so sticky it refused to liquify in to the solution, I just didn't want anything to do with it.

I read this thread about the 10 minute tek The :10 minute Tek - Fumarate to Freebase Conversion - FASA/FASI/FASW - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus where fumarate is converted to freebase by adding sodium carbonate. And basically, the same thing happened with my oxidizing reduction experiment..... where the dmt floated to the top of the mixture when base was added.

I have a few questions.... does this phenomenon only happen with oxidized or fumarate dmt? I mean, if you added regular freebase dmt in sodium carbonate water, does it congeal at the top of the solution? I really want to reduce and convert my fumarates to freebase, but I wonder if this brown spice congealing phenomenon is only something that happens with oxidized dmt, or if it has something to do with fumaric acid, or what's going on. I mean, in the 10 minute tek, why is the spice brown? I figure it's only brown if it's oxidized and if it's oxidized, it's really not the same experience. The spice is very frustrating for me lately.

 

[InMotion]

Likely a lot of that goop was aluminum hydroxide and precipitated DMT and possibly DMT-oxides. When liquid solutions of dmt are basified they tend to stick to the glass(can be translucent) or form an oily layer on the top of the liquid. Under exposure to chilling temperatures for some period of time a more solid mass may be present. So discarding the sludge could have been a big oopsy. It is completely possible that a large portion of product was inside of this taffy depending on how voluminous it was.

The other thing to factor in here is the loss of fumarates. Assuming you had zero excess fumaric acid(rare and ideal case) you will 'lose' about 20-35% mass(guesstimated from memory). so lets see here you should have lost about 2gish in mass as is.

 

[Apoc]

Well thanks for that. My question then is what to do about it? That gooey stuff I had was certainly not going to be picked up by the non polar solvent.... and if I had scooped out the goo, it still would have been contaminated with aluminum and lye. I feel now there is no hope for converting my oxidized stuff.

This is a sad day indeed for me. For you see, two years ago, I made a lot of fumarates, thinking it would stay good forever. But it is clear now that fumarates do indeed oxidize, and this is a problem for me because I don't feel like it's the same substance that I love. It seems one third as potent as NN, and one third as awesome.... as well as more uncomfortable to ingest. I feel like I have lost my dmt. I'm not sure if the aluminum thing had any effect.

 

[Dr_Sister]

Normally for this type of reduction freebase would used as opposed to a salt, so that may have been the issue ...

Couple questions apoc

Had all the Aluminum strips been consumed at the time that you added the lye?
if not, it is possible that the rxn did not go to completion and that what came to the surface was freebase of the oxide.

Did you get a layer of Aluminum oxide settle out at the bottom of the container?
if not then it is possible that Aluminum oxide was contaminating the freebase as inMotion suggests, although normally the Al would settle out on the bottom

it is also possible that there was some polymerization

If sister were faced with this issue she would attempt to deal with it by dissolving the taffy in AcOH, it might take some vigorous shaking/stirring, once everything is back in solution, wash it with DCM or toluene (not naphtha) to hopefully remove the colour contaminents or polymerized goo, then basify again, with fingers crossed

To give you more feedback sister would need more details about how the rxn went, how much Al used, in what solvent, was the run vigorous, how long did it go for, etc.

 

[endlessness]

How do you know they oxidized in the first place? You are guessing by... external appearance? Effects? or.... ?

If first case, it doesnt have to mean DMT oxidized.. Maybe none did, maybe just a small part did, maybe only surface impurities oxidized, etc?

If the second case, what dosages are you consuming vs the past dosages? Are harmala dosages the same as before? What about other differences in eating habits, metabolism, set adn setting, etc?

In any case as said before you should do the reduction with freebase, not with fumarates.. You can always try converting your fumarates back to freebase first and see what you got, before even trying reductions.

Please give us more detail on how you assessed the purity of your product in your first place and how you performed the reaction etc.

BTW, I have used many years old fumarates as well as freebase and they all worked perfectly fine.

 

[Apoc]

HELLO! I believe my freebase oxidized because it started smelling different, was not vaping well, and was not giving the same effects as before. Also when it burns, the smoke clearly has a different smell and taste and texture compared what it used to when it was fresher. I became totally unable to breakthrough or even have cevs with it, when smoked. It had a definite corn smell to it that it did not used to have. Then the fumarates started having a weaker effect, (taken orally) and I suspected they had fallen victim to whatever was happening to my freebase. Taking 100mg fumarate orally used to hit me very hard, but now it's like, 'meh', it's mostly a body buzz (on same dose of harmalas). However, if I take 3g of mimosa, that still packs the good old entheogenic dmt punch that I loved. So I converted some fumarates to freebase to see I could smoke that. Unfortunately, it had the same weak effects, brown color, corn smell, poor vaping properties, and weak effects as my old freebase. I am convinced they oxidized, or something happened to them due to time.

Harmala dosage is the same, I am not aware of any changes in eating habits, metabolism, or set. I didn't do a defat on either the fumarates or the freebase when I extracted them. I have wondered if maybe the oils or something causes the product to lose potency. I don't know.

Oh, btw, do you think this aluminum de-oxidizing thing would work on an a/b extraction of mimosa? I was thinking of brewing up some mimosa, and adding some hcl and aluminum before basifying. Good idea? THANK YOU! i added 15g of citric acid to a 110g brew of mimosa. i hope that doesn't affect the aluminum reduction.

 

[InMotion]

I would not add aluminum and HCl to a fresh mimosa brew. Yields are good enough as is and it would require a lot more HCl and alot more aluminum. Still water may not be the best solvent for this. Really sorry about your spice losses glad to hear your back at it!