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FV THH and the Placebo Effect

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Ice House

Ice House

Rising Star
OG Pioneer
Its 4:15 pm west coast time. I havent eaten in about 18 hours. All this chat and posting about FV THH has got me wondering, so.....

At about 6 pm I'm going to ingest 300mg of FV THH all by itself and see how it goes. I've give it a couple of hours and then break out my GVG and see how it goes.

I feel I have a good standard to compare it to as I have consumed Caapi only brew 3 times in the last 8 days.

If I was given a blind dose of THH I'm not sure that I would know what it was. I would know or I think I would know it was a Harmala or Harmala related. I dont have allot of experience with THH. I have plenty on hand and have been meaning to get down to it.

After some of the postings I have read about it, I'm not even sure If what the lable says is what I am taking and if THH is even an MAOI.

I should expect some effects from this, right?

I'll be back
 
In TIHKAL Shulgin claims that 300 mg pure THH gave effects like 100 mg harmine. So if it is in fact harmine you should have some effects. SWIM has never taken 300 mg of harmine or the alleged THH. However 100mg of harmaline only gives mild effects. As do lower doses of harmine.

If the THH turns out to be harmine, I think several factors can explain why people claimed the effects to be different. Once we know for sure we can discuss it in more detail. It will certainly be an unique learning experince for everyone.
Placebo is very strong. In this case placebo doesn't just refer to inactives but to people thinking the same drug is actually two different drugs. This happened all the time in the 1960-70's with different batches of LSD as well as "mescaline" and "mushrooms" that turned out to be LSD. Also the reinforcing effects of others claiming different subjective effects definitely has an impact on how one perceives the drugs effect. it is like priming the brain (changing the set) so that the individual is more likely looking for certain effects. This likely has a psychological feedback effect, amplifying certain aspects of the drug by its focusing of awareness.

So in this way the different subjective effects are real. One does actually have a different experience. However they do not come from the drug but from the user (the set). This show how powerful the mind is and how ones outlook has dramatic effects on how a drug is experienced. It is quite a fascinating area and I bet there is research on it if not it would be an interesting thesis topic for a psychology student.

There are likely limits to this effect. Both from the drug itself and the individual. With experinece one may also "get better" at distinguishing drugs. For example Shulgin is probably a pro from years of experience. Even still he has told me (at a conference) that placebo is extremely powerful and makes detecting "activtity" very difficult. I would expect idiosyncratic differences in "how susceptible one is" as well. There is support for this as pharm companies remove individuals who exhibit high likelyhood of placebo from their trails.
 
bufoman said:
In TIHKAL Shulgin claims that 300 mg pure THH gave effects like 100 mg harmine. So if it is in fact harmine you should have some effects. SWIM has never taken 300 mg of harmine or the alleged THH. However 100mg of harmaline only gives mild effects. As do lower doses of harmine.
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OK so if the FV THH is actually harmine then how are the effects going to be at 300mg? I am a 225 pound dude.

I would think, if, the THH is harmine then I will be plastered to my bed after about an hour.
 
It would depend highly on the individual. People report quite variable effects from harmala alkaloids. Check out TIHKAL but here are some of the reports:

(with 300 mg, sublingually) "I found myself pleasantly relaxed and withdrawn from my environment. There was a slightly diminished capacity to concentrate."

Here are some others:
(with 300-400 mg, orally [undocumented claim by Clarke]) "Produces psychotic symptoms."

(with 750 mg, sublingually) "Dizziness, nausea and ataxia were the neurological symptoms observed. I do not choose to go any higher -- there must be other substances that are responsible for the hallucinogenic effects of Ayahuasca."

(with up to 900 mg, orally [clinical distillation of Pennes and Hoch]) "Visual hallucinations might have occurred."

Sublingualy is usually stronger than oral. Also 225 is a larger than average size for a male. So it is not surprising that SWIM is not plastered to her bed. Also see people have taken large doses almost a gram without major effects. It is very variable. Aya is also is very variable in its harmala contents both dose wise and ratios.
 
I think I need a much higher dose next time because 300mg is having zero effect on me? I may vape a little later.... Hmm maybe 500mg tomorrow night?

If this were hamine I would expect tp have more of that Caapi feel with 300mg, maybe not.
 
Very few people claim that plain harmala alkaloids are "enjoyable" on their own. Typically people use them to active orally inactive tryptamines or to "alter the intoxication". I have heard of a few people using them as sleep aids or to alter dreams. I think you may be expecting too much. Also have you tried pure "harmine"? Depending on the source Caapi has several alkaloids including harmine (mainly), THH, as well as severeal lesser known compounds some of which are antioxidants. These all may contribute to the subjective effects.

Furthermore although high doses are relatively safe in most individuals people do report unpleasant side effects.

It is so variable, when it was first available people were claiming strong effects off of 30 mg of the THH. It depends on so many factors. It may be important to re-evaluate what you are looking for in taking this compound as it may not be possible to obtain it.
 
It is fascinating and shows the power that thought and expectations have on a drug experience. I forgot Ott discusses this.

The book Hallucinogens A Forensic Drug Handbook (Edited by Laing) also discusses various products called "mescaline" which turned out to contain LSD. Many people still believe that "microdots" contain mescaline.
 
It’s doubtful that I experienced a placebo effect when using THH, harmine, etc. since prior to use I hadn’t read anywhere what the effects were supposed to be for low-dose sublingual use.

I seem to be sensitive to harmine (both by itself, in Caapi Copy, and in caapi vine). A 10-15mg sublingual dose will produce a noticeable “calming” effect. It feels as if my heart rate and respiration rate both slow (although I’ve never measured), and I feel calmer – it acts a bit like an anxiolytic. Subsequent DMT experiences are slowed down and often take on a more “spiritual” character.

Low-dose sublingual THH (10-15mg) produces no effects whatsoever by itself. However, it does subsequently lead to very “different” DMT experiences – more intensely visual, extreme mental clarity, more alien and strange, a different “color palette”.

(Let’s remember – we don’t know what the FV situation is yet. They may have never produced THH, they may have accidentally mislabeled a lot of harmine as THH, or who knows what. To assume that everyone using their THH product is experiencing placebo effect is to implicate FV wrongdoing.)
 
Same here, the effects seems different from caapi than harmine or harmaline so there is so far no question it's simply harmine.
 
bufoman said:
There are likely limits to this effect. Both from the drug itself and the individual. With experinece one may also "get better" at distinguishing drugs. For example Shulgin is probably a pro from years of experience. Even still he has told me (at a conference) that placebo is extremely powerful and makes detecting "activtity" very difficult. I would expect idiosyncratic differences in "how susceptible one is" as well. There is support for this as pharm companies remove individuals who exhibit high likelyhood of placebo from their trails.
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When i was a teen, i experimented basically with everything i could get my hands on, that i thought could have a narcotic effect. Because of this i'm also very aware of this placebo effect. There are many substances of wich i'm still not sure whether they have any mind-altering effects or not, like ginseng, lactusa virosa, etc. At the same time though, i've learned that there are mindstates that can't possibly be reached by placebo: the fly-agaric's i've experimented with for instance, definately do have an effect that can't be mistaken with any possible placebo effect.

I've never experienced pure THH or harmine, but given the fact that they are both harmala's with presumably very simmilar effects and not much hallucinogenic activity on their own, i can imagine one could be mistaken for the other.
Full MAO-inhibition like in pharmahuasca, is something you can't get with placebo effects. If harmine is a much more powerfull MAOI than THH, than you would expect more DMT potentiation from it, and i can't believe people would be able to 'block' this DMT potentiation by believing it isn't there.

I would say that all this simply proves that harmine is capable of more powerfull effects than people where thinking.
And it proves another 'negative' placebo-effect: if people are confident that 'THH' makes DMT less scary, or easier to handle and that it creates less mindfuck, than apparently much of the mindfuck, fear and difficulty people experience with vaporised DMT or ayahuasca prepared with caapi is part of DMT's placebo effect. Also much of the purgative effects people do experience with caapi, but not with 'THH', could be placebo. Nausea and puking is something you could easily auto-suggest yourself into.
 
polytrip said:
if people are confident that 'THH' makes DMT less scary, or easier to handle and that it creates less mindfuck, than apparently much of the mindfuck, fear and difficulty people experience with vaporised DMT or ayahuasca prepared with caapi is part of DMT's placebo effect. Also much of the purgative effects people do experience with caapi, but not with 'THH', could be placebo. Nausea and puking is something you could easily auto-suggest yourself into.
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I find this to be a very interesting point. It goes along with Myron Stolaroff's claim that in the early days of LSD research, no one had any bad trips because no one *knew* you could have a bad trip.
 
So.... did we ever get those test results? I mean the results that would prove/disprove that fv thh was merely harmine.

The discussion went "back-room" and I never heard the conclusion.
 
Fiashly said:
Madcap said:
So.... did we ever get those test results? I mean the results that would prove/disprove that fv thh was merely harmine.

The discussion went "back-room" and I never heard the conclusion.
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I have been wondering the same thing but I basically gave up on the "A new thread will be opened soon." promise as posted in the announcements.
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We have been very busy getting several vials tested in other labs and we are now gathering the data. Please understand that most of us have a very busy life outside the DMT-Nexus and also understand that this subject requires good and clear results before it can be brought to the public. This is no subject to hurry and make unfunded claims about.

So please have a little patience with us.


Kind regards,

The Traveler
 
Fiashly said:
Thanks for that Traveler. That makes me feel better. I have no problem with patience but it had been so long now that I had been thinking that the idea was for us all to forget that the conversation ever happened. I'm glad to know that it isn't just being swept under the rug. At this point all I really want to know is the facts as to what the substance in question really is (or was as the case may be).
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Things done right take time. Rest assured that is being taken seriously and I am quite certain that when the mods are satisfied with their findings and their evaluations, that all will be shared.

Remember, patience is a virgin.8)

JBArk
 
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