fwaggle said:
It is amazing to me that you also dodge non-confronting questions. I really hope that is is your lack of knowledge about the english language that makes you seem so blunt and confronting.
Kind regards,
The Traveler
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It is amazing to me that you also dodge non-confronting questions. I really hope that is is your lack of knowledge about the english language that makes you seem so blunt and confronting.
Kind regards,
The Traveler
fwaggle said:
I haven’t made any comments regarding your “dreaming” phenomenon, and I don’t question it and I don’t question your beliefs. Your dreaming phenomenon is a type of experience that I am unfamiliar with: A dream where you are fully aware and lucid, yet not a lucid dream. A dream from which you awake, yet a dream that becomes your waking state.
Anyhow, there are two logical errors in some of your statements that I was addressing:
1 --- You claim to know what the DMT experience is like in a general sort of way, when in fact this is something you cannot know. You can only know what the DMT experience is for you. You don’t know how other people experience DMT.
2 --- You compare your dreaming phenomenon to your DMT experiences, and conclude that DMT experiences “seem just a little bit pale”. Your error here is that you cannot know what your future DMT experiences will be like. If you continue to experience DMT with proper dose and technique, it is almost certain that you will have a deeper experience than you’ve ever had. And after you’ve had that experience, it is almost certain you’ll have another experience that’s deeper than any before. And another, and another. You cannot know what your future DMT experiences will be like, so you can’t say how they compare to your dreaming phenomenon.
So to summarize, you can’t say how other’s DMT experiences compare to your dreaming phenomenon, nor can you say how your future DMT experiences compare.
Why can't I know what the DMT experience is like for other people?! Am I somehow dumb or is the DMT experience something that cannot be communicated in your opinion? DMT is not as unknowable, unfathomable and unspeakable as you're making it out to be. It is an awesome mystery by the ridiculous standards of the average man, true. But there is so much more out there..
I know that DMT experiences have a limited scope. And no matter who you are and how many times you've done DMT you can never go beyond the realm of DMT by using DMT. I know or rather I'm convinced that the realm accessible to dreaming is pretty much infinite for all practical purposes. Whereas to me DMT is a very limited tool and sooner or later you will find out it's limitations.
To worship a chemical is absurd. I seek freedom.
-f
P.S. @gibran2: I can agree that if a person experiences DMT a million times each experience can turn out vastly different than the last. But the point is, what are you bringing back from those million DMT experiences? You are giving your time and energy to DMT, both of which are priceless. Is the thing you're getting in return also priceless? Are you in fact getting anything in return? The people on nexus generally don't seem to believe in shamanism and sorcery. So am I crazy to have witnessed men shapeshifting and disappearing into thin air? Am I crazy to have witnessed men call forth their "allies" who promptly materialized in front of me? Or is it rather that some people aren't getting anything worthwhile from DMT? You choose.
It still really bugs me that DMT users would classify shamanism as a social phenomenon. It's disturbing as hell, to be honest.
[Everything I say is my opinion so for those concerned put "In fwaggle's opinion" pre- all of my sentences before reading them, if it helps you. (Disregard this if you already know that any words coming out of a person's mouth are that person's opinion and people have the priviledge of having and expressing an opinion without being required to state that what they are stating is in fact their opinion.)]
I know that DMT experiences have a limited scope. And no matter who you are and how many times you've done DMT you can never go beyond the realm of DMT by using DMT. I know or rather I'm convinced that the realm accessible to dreaming is pretty much infinite for all practical purposes. Whereas to me DMT is a very limited tool and sooner or later you will find out it's limitations.
To worship a chemical is absurd. I seek freedom.
-f
P.S. @gibran2: I can agree that if a person experiences DMT a million times each experience can turn out vastly different than the last. But the point is, what are you bringing back from those million DMT experiences? You are giving your time and energy to DMT, both of which are priceless. Is the thing you're getting in return also priceless? Are you in fact getting anything in return? The people on nexus generally don't seem to believe in shamanism and sorcery. So am I crazy to have witnessed men shapeshifting and disappearing into thin air? Am I crazy to have witnessed men call forth their "allies" who promptly materialized in front of me? Or is it rather that some people aren't getting anything worthwhile from DMT? You choose.
It still really bugs me that DMT users would classify shamanism as a social phenomenon. It's disturbing as hell, to be honest.
[Everything I say is my opinion so for those concerned put "In fwaggle's opinion" pre- all of my sentences before reading them, if it helps you. (Disregard this if you already know that any words coming out of a person's mouth are that person's opinion and people have the priviledge of having and expressing an opinion without being required to state that what they are stating is in fact their opinion.)]
I worship no chemical...
Also, to make any statement that starts with "And no matter who you are" is to assume that you have some sort of omniscient viewpoint or conclusive proof that you know/experience the infinite range of existence as experienced by others and this is simply not the case...
your tone leaves much to be desired as do your claims...but such is life
peace
SB
How can you make this statement? How can you know that there is not another level or another layer until you experience it (leaving you to conclude you have reached the limit, until a subsequent experience causes you to realize that it is not in fact the limit)? This would force me to conclude you believe you have taken DMT as far as it can go, and personally, I don't think anyone has...there is always another question, there is always another level, this rings true (at least to me) throughout this entire fractal existence of ours.fwaggle said:
Also, to make any statement that starts with "And no matter who you are" is to assume that you have some sort of omniscient viewpoint or conclusive proof that you know/experience the infinite range of existence as experienced by others and this is simply not the case...
your tone leaves much to be desired as do your claims...but such is life
peace
SB
I usually find I can't know what ANYTHING is like for another person, whether it is brushing teeth or smoking spice. It's not that these things can't be communicated, but communication has its limits as well.
If the dmt experience to you has a limited scope, perhaps it is because you believe it is so. In the end it seems to me so very often, the only limitations we experience, other than the physical ones, are the ones we impose upon ourselves. The infinite part of the dream world should also be possible to be brought into any other psychological reality you choose to bring it into. It seems to me it is the self that is truly infinite and not some experience it has. Whether we recognize and find this infinity in boiling water, smoking spice, dreaming or by any other means doesn't matter, I would think.
For my self, I find the dmt experience truly fascinating and inspiring on many levels. Dreams too. Sleep paralysis too. Even waking life, occasionally... I worship life.
It saddens me to see that you still don't quite seem to understand why we ask you kindly to rephrase your posts. We are really happy to debate these things with you, at least I am; but the way you make your statements, even if they are just your opinion feels very belligerent and confrontational, and this is not something we really want to have here. Disagreeing with one-another is really great and the basis of many good conversations, but why must it be in a tone that suggests *I'm right and you're wrong*? I still believe that all is just a matter of perspective and hence all oppinions should be treated that way - they are only *right* within their own reference frame, and we as intelligent beings can recognize this and therefore adapt what we try to communicate in a suitable manner. You see, language is the only thing we have to communicate properly with one another, and it's a fantastic tool! but if not used properly a lot can get lost or misconstrued. You can evoke emotions in others that you never wanted to and get results that may seem hostile to you etc. A little thought goes a long way when it comes to communication. Please don't be offended or affronted by my words; I'm trying to offer constructive criticism.
Much love
Enoon
If the dmt experience to you has a limited scope, perhaps it is because you believe it is so. In the end it seems to me so very often, the only limitations we experience, other than the physical ones, are the ones we impose upon ourselves. The infinite part of the dream world should also be possible to be brought into any other psychological reality you choose to bring it into. It seems to me it is the self that is truly infinite and not some experience it has. Whether we recognize and find this infinity in boiling water, smoking spice, dreaming or by any other means doesn't matter, I would think.
For my self, I find the dmt experience truly fascinating and inspiring on many levels. Dreams too. Sleep paralysis too. Even waking life, occasionally... I worship life.
It saddens me to see that you still don't quite seem to understand why we ask you kindly to rephrase your posts. We are really happy to debate these things with you, at least I am; but the way you make your statements, even if they are just your opinion feels very belligerent and confrontational, and this is not something we really want to have here. Disagreeing with one-another is really great and the basis of many good conversations, but why must it be in a tone that suggests *I'm right and you're wrong*? I still believe that all is just a matter of perspective and hence all oppinions should be treated that way - they are only *right* within their own reference frame, and we as intelligent beings can recognize this and therefore adapt what we try to communicate in a suitable manner. You see, language is the only thing we have to communicate properly with one another, and it's a fantastic tool! but if not used properly a lot can get lost or misconstrued. You can evoke emotions in others that you never wanted to and get results that may seem hostile to you etc. A little thought goes a long way when it comes to communication. Please don't be offended or affronted by my words; I'm trying to offer constructive criticism.
Much love
Enoon
fwaggle said:
Hehehe, my good friend, Señor Fwaggle, you appear to have engaged in the informal logical fallacy known as argumentum ad ignorantiam or appeal to ignorance...
For a better understanding and further reading on this fallacy, please see Wikipedia's page on Argument from ignorance
Essentially, what this means is the onus is on you to show that the DMT experience IS limited as you are making the claim as such, and attempting to prove a negative places you into the above fallacy.
SB
Thankyou for your kindness Enoon.
I am convinced that all modern human beings are exactly alike. Where did you get the idea that we are so different? Our subjective experiences are the same as far as I can see and we perceive the same bundle of "things" which we call reality. Our perception as modern men is uniform. We are all the same man living in the same world faced with the same problems.
To me it is a true hindrance to consider men intrinsically different. Men and plants; now there's difference. Even the amazonian man or paleolithic man don't seem all that different from modern man because we share the same kind of awareness. We do not share the same kind of awareness with a gorilla or an ant or the elves.
-f
I am convinced that all modern human beings are exactly alike. Where did you get the idea that we are so different? Our subjective experiences are the same as far as I can see and we perceive the same bundle of "things" which we call reality. Our perception as modern men is uniform. We are all the same man living in the same world faced with the same problems.
To me it is a true hindrance to consider men intrinsically different. Men and plants; now there's difference. Even the amazonian man or paleolithic man don't seem all that different from modern man because we share the same kind of awareness. We do not share the same kind of awareness with a gorilla or an ant or the elves.
-f
Ok SnozzleBerry. Let us say that DMT is infinite if it pleases you. It sounds ridiculous but we will have to learn to carry more ridiculous beliefs with us through life. Our ancestors were the masters of absurd beliefs, mind you.
Let me just add this: You can walk around on the earth for the duration of your life and you will never exhaust what the earth has to show you. Does this mean the earth is infinite? That there is nothing beyond the earth? Or is it that we've pretty much exhausted it already and the nutjobs are trying to find ways to travel light-distances away to find what lies beyond? Is there no beyond-DMT? I know a good number of Opium addicts who are absolutely convinced that there is nothing beyond Opium. So here is another chemical. Is this one also infinite? Or is this quality of being infinite peculiar to one special chemical, namely dimethyltryptamine?
Really, can't you see or am I hallucinating this whole forum?
-f
Let me just add this: You can walk around on the earth for the duration of your life and you will never exhaust what the earth has to show you. Does this mean the earth is infinite? That there is nothing beyond the earth? Or is it that we've pretty much exhausted it already and the nutjobs are trying to find ways to travel light-distances away to find what lies beyond? Is there no beyond-DMT? I know a good number of Opium addicts who are absolutely convinced that there is nothing beyond Opium. So here is another chemical. Is this one also infinite? Or is this quality of being infinite peculiar to one special chemical, namely dimethyltryptamine?
Really, can't you see or am I hallucinating this whole forum?
-f
Fwaggle, would it be possible to engage you in a discussion where you actually use logic and don't keep invoking fallacies?fwaggle said:
Your above post is an Appeal to Ridicule
How about you actually back up your claims with legitimate support and evidence? If you're not willing to do that and are merely going to invoke fallacies and attack others I don't see any merit to your posts.
SB
EDIT: The part you edited doesn't change anything...you just spewed a nonsensical metaphor that has very little relevance to what we are discussing. Something more appropriate would have been along the lines of physicists who study subatomic particles and are routinely astounded to find more and more of them at continually "deeper" levels of reality/existence that many people thought didn't even exist - that is the appropriate parallel for what we are exploring in the spice realms, imo.
You cannot know what ANY subjective experience had by another person is like. You can make assumptions about the neurological/physiological similarities of people and generalize about subjective experience, but you can’t know what it is like to experience life subjectively from a viewpoint other than your own. Sorry, but that’s just the nature of subjective experience.fwaggle said:
Most aspects of my DMT experiences can’t be put into words. The sights, sounds, and emotional states are often quite different from anything I’ve experienced in everyday life, so I can’t say “it’s like…”, because it isn’t like anything else. It’s a bit like describing a new and unique flavor or odor. You can compare it to other flavors or odors, but you can’t express the flavor or odor in words. It’s not because flavors and odors are special or mysterious, but rather because language is inadequate.
As I’ve said before, you cannot make claims or comparisons between the known and the unknown. You don’t know what your future DMT experiences will be like, so you can’t say that any known state compares either favorably or unfavorably to your future DMT experiences.
You claim that members of this forum are attacking you, but I see no evidence of this. For example, you mention shamanism in your response to my post, but I haven’t made any references to shamanism in this thread.
I agree. Your analogy is quite neat and fitting.
But can we please stop arguing? What is the sense of any of this? Honestly, do you even care?
What I'd really like is to take you out to the balcony, light a joint of the finest Persian hash and then we can ramble on. This forum thing is not my cup of joe when it comes to arguing.
-f
But can we please stop arguing? What is the sense of any of this? Honestly, do you even care?
What I'd really like is to take you out to the balcony, light a joint of the finest Persian hash and then we can ramble on. This forum thing is not my cup of joe when it comes to arguing.
-f
@gibran2: The shamanism remark was made by someone else and then the masses cheered. And I never claimed to have been attacked... Anyway, I'm sure there will be plenty of time for us to show eachother our perspectives. No rush to discredit or disprove anything, not now.
I guess what I'm saying is who cares? You take your path, I take mine. In the end we will both still be nowhere. Or as DMT likes to say: Absolutely nothing matters. Let's reflect that attitude.
-f
P.S. I'd still like to hear what you (and anyone else) thinks, though. The average man's idea of the world is nonsense as i'm sure everyone here must agree. I would like to know how this nonsensical view is affected by DMT. What I'm saying is I want to know what you think. I don't want to argue and debate my views. I want to hear yours.
I guess what I'm saying is who cares? You take your path, I take mine. In the end we will both still be nowhere. Or as DMT likes to say: Absolutely nothing matters. Let's reflect that attitude.
-f
P.S. I'd still like to hear what you (and anyone else) thinks, though. The average man's idea of the world is nonsense as i'm sure everyone here must agree. I would like to know how this nonsensical view is affected by DMT. What I'm saying is I want to know what you think. I don't want to argue and debate my views. I want to hear yours.
Fuckin' A. Whaddya gotta do to get banned here? Talking to this guy is useless, maybe beyond some zen approach where he causes you to critically think about your own views. But none of you are gonna get anywhere arguing with this guy. It's hard to say someone can be wrong for sure, but you Mr. Fwaggle are wrong about nearly everything you talk about, and something tells me you know this too.
I know my analogy is quite fitting, that's because I'm trying to make a connection with you and reach some sort of common ground. You on the other hand seem to be focused on getting other people to share their opinions and perceptions so that you can tell them how wrong they are and how right you know yourself to be. This is incredibly annoying and not in anyway beneficial.fwaggle said:I agree. Your analogy is quite neat and fitting.
But can we please stop arguing? What is the sense of any of this? Honestly, do you even care?
-f
I engaged you precisely BECAUSE I care. Having spent considerable amounts of time exploring these realms, one of the most important and significant lessons the spice has taught me is the infinite-depth of the rabbit hole and the myriad of subjective experiences that infinity creates. I would never presume to be able to know someone else's subjective experience...that in and of itself would imply it's not subjective.
I think you'll find that the individuals on the Nexus care very much about this, it's one of the many reasons we are here.
Allow me to quote from the Attitude:
The DMT-Nexus Attitude said:
I'm giving you a warning now, check your attitude and your tone or you'll be the lucky person to pop my suspension cherry when I give you some time off from the Nexus.
peace
SB
The message you get from DMT may be that nothing matters, but that’s not the message I get. If anything, I get the polar opposite message: everything matters. Every mundane detail of existence matters. Every grain of sand and drop of water and flake of snow matters.fwaggle said:
I agree that “the average man’s idea of the world is nonsense”, but I also acknowledge that I’m an average man.
To quote Robert Anton Wilson and the "Committee for Surrealist Investigation of Claims of the Normal"...: The average man does not exist - or - "The normal consists of a null set which nobody and nothing really fits."
So I don't really know whose nonsense we are talking about right now
And what is the question now? What is my/our take on the world? My take is that existence is magnificent, that there is always more to explore and that relativity, i.e. phenomena viewed from different reference frames, is also important to consider not just in physical but also in the endo-human and inter-human spaces. In physics this means, one can not tell the difference between A is moving towards B or B is moving towards A or both are moving towards each other - they are all valid and equally true, depending on your frame of reference. Trying to apply this in a loose fashion to my every-day mindset keeps me open and flexible, or at least I hope it does.
Cheers
Enoon
So I don't really know whose nonsense we are talking about right now
And what is the question now? What is my/our take on the world? My take is that existence is magnificent, that there is always more to explore and that relativity, i.e. phenomena viewed from different reference frames, is also important to consider not just in physical but also in the endo-human and inter-human spaces. In physics this means, one can not tell the difference between A is moving towards B or B is moving towards A or both are moving towards each other - they are all valid and equally true, depending on your frame of reference. Trying to apply this in a loose fashion to my every-day mindset keeps me open and flexible, or at least I hope it does.
Cheers
Enoon
I'm going to make a claim against your stance on subjectivism.
If I wan't to know how Mr. X (let's say Barack Obama) feels, all I need to do is stop talking to myself for an instant and intend from the silence to merge with him. More often than not the result is a kind of palette of feelings, although in a very indescribable way. Then to decode the meaning all I do is compare my own set of feelings with his in a rational way. The end result is that I have realized we're not all that different, all of us.
Also to clarify a bit, these feelings are "units of understanding" to me. To perceive these units is direct knowledge without the intervention of language. I suppose if you consider that everything is made of awareness (or energy) then it should not be very difficult for an energy-generating being with awareness to grasp what surrounds him. The mind's grasp of things is rather superficial, hence modern man's superficial world.
To the average man all of this is a simple case of a delusional individual. @gibran2: To be riding the tide of the unknown means that one is no longer an average man.
The average man is held in check by boundaries which separate his self from everything around him. If those boundaries are made to collapse the result can no longer be identified with the average man.
And can everyone please stop taking offense? Why should you be offended because I have no manners??
-f
If I wan't to know how Mr. X (let's say Barack Obama) feels, all I need to do is stop talking to myself for an instant and intend from the silence to merge with him. More often than not the result is a kind of palette of feelings, although in a very indescribable way. Then to decode the meaning all I do is compare my own set of feelings with his in a rational way. The end result is that I have realized we're not all that different, all of us.
Also to clarify a bit, these feelings are "units of understanding" to me. To perceive these units is direct knowledge without the intervention of language. I suppose if you consider that everything is made of awareness (or energy) then it should not be very difficult for an energy-generating being with awareness to grasp what surrounds him. The mind's grasp of things is rather superficial, hence modern man's superficial world.
To the average man all of this is a simple case of a delusional individual. @gibran2: To be riding the tide of the unknown means that one is no longer an average man.
The average man is held in check by boundaries which separate his self from everything around him. If those boundaries are made to collapse the result can no longer be identified with the average man.
And can everyone please stop taking offense? Why should you be offended because I have no manners??
-f
@SnozzleBerry: Maybe you don't see it, but it's useless for us to argue buddy. We don't share the same state of perception. What is self-evident to one of us is not at all obvious to the other one.
Sorry to have enraged you with my lack of regard for social manners.
-f
Sorry to have enraged you with my lack of regard for social manners.
-f