Getting to sleep (normally, not after substances)

[SpathiEluder]

Hi all,

I was hoping for some input from the community as many here would have tried supplements available on the market.

I have trouble falling asleep, however once I am asleep I am fine all the way through until when I should wake up in the morning.

I am under some life stress, and have been for the past 6 years or so, its not going to end any time soon. I eat healthily, have stopped caffeine, and regularly get light enough exercise. I also take magnesium nightly. I do yoga a couple of times a a week, and try to meditate as much as possible.
My problem is that I am coming from being a night time only cannabis vaper for 4 years straight (only a small amount too), for a couple of reasons. Firstly I have an addiction to the playfulness of it - i just love it, secondly it eases neck and back pain, and lastly it puts me to sleep - guaranteed. What I don't like is that with my personal situation it seems to amplify my self doubts and make me feel apathetic, depressed and a little foggy in the morning.
Melatonin didnt really seem to set me off either, it has been a while since Ive had it, but I think I recall feeling groggy from that the next day. I will try it again tonight.

I tried sour cherry last night with no luck, this actually sent me into a lucid dreaming state, I thought I was completely awake, but had a detailed and interactive dream. Eventually i got up and took half of a valium and I was out. I am not a fan of pharmas, however If benzos weren't bad for you, I would be in love. I sleep well from them, and feel great the day after.

My real question is : Have you had any success with natural supplements, (kava, st johns, valerian root etc) that are closest to mimicking the effect of a benzodiazepine ? Even half a tablet of a benzo seems to be enough to set me to sleep, but it needs to be reserved for desperate situations.

Thanks friends

 

[FoundLost]

I've tried a number of things over the years.

The one thing I will say is that a lot of the supplements that are out there will generally make you groggy the next day or have very active dreams for a few nights when first starting them.

When I take melatonin after not taking it for an extended period of time it both increases the chances of me lucid dreaming and makes me a bit groggy the next morning. Try taking it for a week, preferably 2, at least to see if it'll work for you to get past some of the dream vividness and grogginess. I also recommend taking a tiny amount of b-6 with your melatonin as it helps the brain to make use of it. Just don't over-do the b-6 or it can keep you up as well. 10-15mg should be enough. Just try not to go over 25mg. I buy 100mg caps and just break them into roughly 6 pieces; cause I'm cheap like that.

Valerian root didn't seem to do jack squat for me but I know a lot of people that swear by it. I also have read a few claims though that long term use can degrade certain liver enzyme functionality.

Magnesium is always good for sleeping although some forms are more effective than others. The best one for the task is magnesium glycinate. Glycinate also helps with sleep.

A healthy b-vitamin regiment taken in the morning never hurts.

It's fairly weak to most people but for me chammomile knocks me smooth out. I just buy the tea of it at the local grocer that says 100% chammomile and brew it 2 bags to a single cup then add a small amount of heavy cream and some suger and blam out like a light. Also, prepared like that it's downright delicious.

I will say that from years of reading up on this on the internet I have over time noticed that for every single supplement you can find for this there's no less than equal people that love it and hate it. Some stuff will make one person sleep like a log and another person have chronic nightmares nightly until they stop taking it. You just gotta find what works for you.

People often report dreams that keep them from sleeping soundly the first few nights of starting zinc supplements, magnesium, even fish oil. That should tell you something of the nature of the brain. Give it chemicals it's not used to in more than current exposure levels and it'll start doing odd things until it can bring itself to more of an equalibrium. That's why it's best to try these things for a week or two before making any decisions about their total effectiveness.

I wish you luck in finding something you're happy with. It can take a while to find something that really works with your body chemistry. When I first started taking melatonin I had such intense dream I thought I couldn't possibly use it for sleep because I was on the edge of awake the whole night. After a few weeks though it was my go to for agood night's sleep. Once I found out about mixing it with b-6 that's all I use unless I'm trying to dream more on purpose.

 

[SpathiEluder]

thanks Found.

Camomile is actually the one thing I was thinking of trying, its so obvious, but I always assumed it would be weak so never gave it a chance. I have some here so I will give it a go.

I appreciate what you are saying about sticking it out with certain supplements for a couple of weeks before giving up, I tend to try them once or twice and just get frustrated.

I have to say, stopping weed is like breaking up with a deep love. Every time you want to call that person and you realize you cant ! I have moments where I get excited in my head to have a little vape and go for a 6km walk along the river then realize I have to do it with a normal mind. I was never an intense stoner that would wake and bake, but there was always that time at night that excited me. I would vape a small amount, play guitar, read the nexus, watch documentaries, read articles and catch up on tv. I loved it for my artwork (work) and for exploring music, or revisiting music I have listened to a thousand times. I have had times in the past where I know I needed to stop because once I had it I would get anxious, but for the past 4 years I feel fantastic every time I have it. I smile, I do yoga, I explore, i think about how I have treated others, people I havent spoken to etc etc. But right now the next days minor hangover is enough to hinder my personal situation, so its time to be strong!

Anyhow, back on subject, thank you for input, I will try the camomile tonight and get my hands on some b-6.

Much appreciated

 

[Psilosopher?]

For me, sleep is all about mind set. If my mind is buzzing, I can't go to sleep. So, what do I do? I burn that energy off. I wake up and do something to satisfy my mind just enough to convince it to shut down. This was a problem for me a while ago, back when I couldn't shut my mind off. Meditation has really helped me let go of thinking, allowing me to blissfully fall asleep. Now I have a new problem, I sleep too deeply. Often, even my alarm doesn't wake me up.

I would often jokingly brag to my friends that I could sleep any place, any time. I sleep standing up on the train, I've slept through death metal concerts, I take power naps whenever I have time. All I did was think of sleeping as a mini-death, and I will be reborn when I wake up. I would tell myself that tomorrow is a new day filled with new activities. That new day, however, was 8 hours away. In a way, I told myself to prepare myself for every day, both physically and mentally. That would get me into the mood for sleep.

 

[SpathiEluder]

Very interesting Bodhi thank you. I try my best at that, but right now my stress comes from the fact that I am suffering depression due to lack of direction in life, and therefore struggle to look forward to a new day as it means a whole lot of self inflicted pressure that I am trying to make sense of. I am trying my best to relax and meditate before, I get to the point where I am happy to sleep and a little cosy, but somehow I stay slightly lucid.

I find I fall asleep OK when I am extremely exhausted, like after a near all-nighter. Once I get into the habit I might be ok. But anyway, here goes! Camomile has been consumed, melatonin has been swallowed, and so has magnesium.
I will either sleep or shit myself

Appreciate your assistance and will definitely do some meditation now.

Good night!

 

[Psilosopher?]

Very interesting Bodhi thank you. I try my best at that, but right now my stress comes from the fact that I am suffering depression due to lack of direction in life, and therefore struggle to look forward to a new day as it means a whole lot of self inflicted pressure that I am trying to make sense of. I am trying my best to relax and meditate before, I get to the point where I am happy to sleep and a little cosy, but somehow I stay slightly lucid.

I find I fall asleep OK when I am extremely exhausted, like after a near all-nighter. Once I get into the habit I might be ok. But anyway, here goes! Camomile has been consumed, melatonin has been swallowed, and so has magnesium.
I will either sleep or shit myself

Appreciate your assistance and will definitely do some meditation now.

Good night!

You have answered your own question. Once you get over your depression and have a purpose in life, everything else will follow.

Depression affects your normal physiology. Depression is a self-perpetuating stress response, often triggered by a traumatic event. The key word there is "self-perpetuating", like a cycle. Once you break the cycle, you should conquer your depression. Easier said than done, I suppose. But just because it isn't easy doesn't mean it's not worth it.

Take up a hobby, talk to a variety of people (even those who you may not vibe with). Get out there and bring purpose into your own life.

I had a massive existential crisis a few years ago. I did not know what was the meaning of existence and the meaning of MY existence. "What's the point in anything if we're all going to die anyway?" was a thought that ran frequently through my mind. I came to the conclusion, "Life has no meaning, YOU must give it meaning." Since then, I'm living life with purpose.

Be one with YOU. And learn to let go of it, so that when you grasp it again, you can appreciate it that much more.


I'll leave you with this. Every morning, I read this poem that I have on my wall.


"Go placidly amid the noise and the haste, and remember what peace there may be in silence. As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even to the dull and the ignorant; they too have their story.

Avoid loud and aggressive persons; they are vexatious to the spirit. If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain or bitter, for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.

Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. Keep interested in your own career, however humble; it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time.

Exercise caution in your business affairs, for the world is full of trickery. But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons strive for high ideals, and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Be yourself. Especially, do not feign affection. Neither be cynical about love; for in the face of all aridity and disenchantment, it is as perennial as the grass.

Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the things of youth.

Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But do not distress yourself with dark imaginings. Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness.

Beyond a wholesome discipline, be gentle with yourself. You are a child of the universe no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here.

And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be.

And whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life, keep peace in your soul. With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy."

Max Ehrmann, "Desiderata".

 

[SpathiEluder]

Thanks Bodhi, those are definitely reassuring words to read, for all people who suffer that self doubt. It is also always comforting to know that others get through difficulties, and with hard work make it through the other end with a lot more better days than bad.
I am working on everything daily, and I have known for 5 years that my life situation is the reason for my sleep issues, however, until things shift with that, I need to fall asleep naturally, without even the tiniest of weed.

My situation frustrates me because I have little self doubt in my abilities, in short, I cannot seem to find a career path that I would be passionate enough to commit to. I have tried many careers, and succeeded in all, made a lot of money in some, but that has all gone leaving me a feeling a behind the game. Its a battle, that has plagued me since high school (Im 35). I have a bit of disdain for the whole work thing and feel like disappearing into the rainforest (as long as they have decent dental care)

Anyhow its just that age where you tried so hard to change things, and just want to get on with it, start a family, have your parents young enough so one day they can actually know their grandchild...all that self inflicted stuff But anyhow, back on track with the thread in case anyone else might be interested.

I took Melatonin last night 6mg, and double dosed camomile tea. I am VERY pleased to say I fell asleep quite fast and deeply, however I woke up at 4am (im guessing?) and couldnt get back to sleep. This never ever happens to me, but I am confident it is due to the melatonin as I am sure it has happened before when taking it.

So tonight I will go for the trusty camomile by itself.

My original enquiry was to get a feel of what herbs others have tried to induce a more relaxed state. I have been meaning to try things like damiana etc, but hopefully I wont need to

Thanks for your replies I do love this community, thank god I don't have to rely on reddit.

 

[daspaismusflo]

For me, if it is really bad sleep trouble then the only thing that works is z drugs (non benzodiazapines) they work on the other GABA receptor and don't have as much withdrawel. That being said you would only want to have a couple nights on them, otherwise they might start to feel like benzos. I find 1 night of benzos is equivolent to the tolerance of 3 night z drug. I only need one large dose for one night, and that seems to Reset my sleeping patterns and the next time I don't get any of that scheduled sleep disturbances. Melatonin & valerian are lighter stuff that can be used to potentiate sleep or aid it a little but if you got problems, GABA is the only way to go or a dose of anti-psychotics (ht2a antagonist) knock you right out :thumb_up: