Goodbye Psychedelic Community

[IceKoldpp]

2. Cultural Stagnation

Members often use Indigenous aesthetics to bolster their own status, creating a cosplay-like environment rather than engaging with the cultural wisdom.

ok. many subcultures have their own aesthetic to identify themselves as part of said group. it usually is done with a sense of pride (not using pride in the negative sense of the word here) to simply signal to others that they are part of the group and in general share the values of the group. purity testing others intentions when adopting an aesthetic is generally a pointless practice and shouldn't be something you should let bother you too much as we all have the freedom to present how we want and to want it any other way is a slippery slope. there are always "posers" but that is usually done more in naievity rather than malice i would think. like a teen who just discovered metal and develops a instant zeal for the genre and rushes out to get as many black metallica t-shirts as their newly blackened little hearts can find and rips holes in the knees of all of their jeans. this is usually very clear to those who have been metalheads for years though since these noobs are dressing like a caricature of a metal enthusiest usually. and while they may see it as a little corny, they don't generally have any actual problem with it. having a problem with new supporters of your subculture is commonly looked at as gatekeeping. which is not a good look. we all want our special little secret community to stay special and secret forever but when there is inherent value in that community it inevitably always will grow more and more widely adopted. and i can't think of another community based on something with more inherent value than psychedelics. and i for one hope it grows exponentially as this pushes us all to a more open and enlightened species overall. which is what i thought we wanted..??

Many people consider themselves shamans without doing any healing in the community.

so what? these are frauds and easily sussed out by the greater community at large. bad (or delusional) actors exist in every community and rarely gain any real or enduring power or influence. there's a quote, i believe it is "you will know them by their fruits". maybe the bible? not sure. doesn't matter. the idea rings true in this context. and letting the idea of bad actors discourage you from a community you find value in is unfortunate and will eventually have you disengaging from any community you ever join bc they exist across all of them.

This cultural stagnation prevents the psychedelic movement from addressing broader societal issues, such as climate change or systemic inequality, whereas they are being addressed outside the psychedelic community.

again.. so what? must every single community put their focus on these things? what if many members of a community see their involvement in said community as a haven from these types of issues and a place to detach or at least temporarily escape having to constantly discuss these things? i understand these may be important issues to you. and i'll even recognize that these two specific issues are important in general. but every single community isn't beholden to platform an issue based on the fact that they're important to you. the issues that the majority of any community put value on will rise naturally to the level of import they deserve within that community on their own. you will not have to force them forward. and its ok if every single community or subculture doesn't have systemic inequality or climate change at the very tippy top of their hierarchy of actionable items with which to engage. bc there are plenty of community's that do. and if those are your highest priority ideas to engage with you're better served to simply engage with them where they already are the focus rather than trying to force them into a community where they aren't naturally emphasized.

 

[Varallo]

ok. many subcultures have their own aesthetic to identify themselves as part of said group. it usually is done with a sense of pride (not using pride in the negative sense of the word here) to simply signal to others that they are part of the group and in general share the values of the group. purity testing others intentions when adopting an aesthetic is generally a pointless practice and shouldn't be something you should let bother you too much as we all have the freedom to present how we want and to want it any other way is a slippery slope. there are always "posers" but that is usually done more in naievity rather than malice i would think. like a teen who just discovered metal and develops a instant zeal for the genre and rushes out to get as many black metallica t-shirts as their newly blackened little hearts can find and rips holes in the knees of all of their jeans. this is usually very clear to those who have been metalheads for years though since these noobs are dressing like a caricature of a metal enthusiest usually. and while they may see it as a little corny, they don't generally have any actual problem with it. having a problem with new supporters of your subculture is commonly looked at as gatekeeping. which is not a good look. we all want our special little secret community to stay special and secret forever but when there is inherent value in that community it inevitably always will grow more and more widely adopted. and i can't think of another community based on something with more inherent value than psychedelics. and i for one hope it grows exponentially as this pushes us all to a more open and enlightened species overall. which is what i thought we wanted..??


so what? these are frauds and easily sussed out by the greater community at large. bad (or delusional) actors exist in every community and rarely gain any real or enduring power or influence. there's a quote, i believe it is "you will know them by their fruits". maybe the bible? not sure. doesn't matter. the idea rings true in this context. and letting the idea of bad actors discourage you from a community you find value in is unfortunate and will eventually have you disengaging from any community you ever join bc they exist across all of them.


again.. so what? must every single community put their focus on these things? what if many members of a community see their involvement in said community as a haven from these types of issues and a place to detach or at least temporarily escape having to constantly discuss these things? i understand these may be important issues to you. and i'll even recognize that these two specific issues are important in general. but every single community isn't beholden to platform an issue based on the fact that they're important to you. the issues that the majority of any community put value on will rise naturally to the level of import they deserve within that community on their own. you will not have to force them forward. and its ok if every single community or subculture doesn't have systemic inequality or climate change at the very tippy top of their hierarchy of actionable items with which to engage. bc there are plenty of community's that do. and if those are your highest priority ideas to engage with you're better served to simply engage with them where they already are the focus rather than trying to force them into a community where they aren't naturally emphasized.

I think our discussion would be more productive if we keep ad hominem attacks to a minimum and focus on the substance of each argument. You bring up several valid points that deserve attention, and by keeping our exchanges respectful, we can dive deeper into the issues without getting sidetracked by the more confrontational tone.

I agree on the gatekeeping, but Im not sure if anyone is really saying we should.

On the issue about these frauds, unfortunately, their actions do have an impact: they contribute to psychedelics being less accepted because these substances become linked with bad actors. Just because those bad actors might not be widely admired doesn’t mean they have no influence. In my view, there are actually a lot (too many) of examples of people that are very harmful in shaping the public opinion and acceptance on psychedelics.

Your point that the psychedelic community should not have to weigh in on topics like climate change or systemic inequality makes sense. After all, its the shared interest in psychedelics that connects this group. Still, we might ask if were really talking about a single community or just a collection of individuals from various backgrounds who happen to use these substances. Some more and others less inclined to work on solving these issues. I for one don’t associate with any of the stereotypes that exist around psychedelic people, and my views are very different from the ones often portrayed.

The question before continuing would be whether we can actually speak about an psychedelic community, and if, then what defines this group.

 

[fink]

Working with substances personally and being a 'part of the psychedelic community' are two different things. For me, the OP was leaving the community, not leaving the substances or the lifestyle.

I would also like to suggest that any discussion about individual worth can only ever be subjective. As a big picture that makes every atom and every concious activity potentially of infinite value and utterly worthless at the same time

 

[Jungleheart]

@IceKoldpp, I made this post to share my opinions and promote open discussions so thank you for providing a different viewpoint.

My main point is that mainstream culture continues not to adopt many aspects of the psychedelic community and I pointed out reasons I think why.

My response to your critiques are all based on my personal opinions. For me personally, I don't feel a strong need to express affiliation through aesthetics. I do believe there are communities where people generally feel safe and supported, though, like any space, maintaining that environment takes effort. Third, I personally am more motivated to be part of groups that want to maximize their impact.

It's just not for me, but I wanted to offer a different perspective to see how others feel about it.

@fink, my title reflects my view that the psychedelic community is shrinking, and that many of its most positive aspects have already been absorbed into mainstream culture. Because of that, I personally don’t see it as the best place to invest significant energy. I've always felt more like an observer than a participant, so I never really considered myself part of the community.

 

[Voidmatrix]

I think our discussion would be more productive if we keep ad hominem attacks to a minimum and focus on the substance of each argument. You bring up several valid points that deserve attention, and by keeping our exchanges respectful, we can dive deeper into the issues without getting sidetracked by the more confrontational tone.

Smelled contentious to you too, eh?

One love

 

[Varallo]

Smelled contentious to you too, eh?

One love

A bit argumentative, maybe unintentional, but nevertheless undesirable.

 

[Memberberries]

so what? these are frauds and easily sussed out by the greater community at large. bad (or delusional) actors exist in every community and rarely gain any real or enduring power or influence.

Are they? Don't they? Even on this thread someone brought up Martin Ball. Who wants to ride on his vomit comet? Who wants him to shove his tongue down their throat rather than give them CPR if they stop breathing while high in his care? The 5meo people are . How many allegations are there against Octavio and Gerry? Can we really say there's no enduring power or influence?

must every single community put their focus on these things? what if many members of a community see their involvement in said community as a haven from these types of issues and a place to detach or at least temporarily escape having to constantly discuss these things?

What if many members of a subculture wind up in that subculture because they don't fit into the mainstream due to their philosophies/identities/lived experiences? What if they are threatened by the mainstream and they see their subculture as a place to experience themselves more fully and grapple with the way they're treated by the world?

like a teen who just discovered metal and develops a instant zeal for the genre and rushes out to get as many black metallica t-shirts as their newly blackened little hearts can find and rips holes in the knees of all of their jeans. this is usually very clear to those who have been metalheads for years though since these noobs are dressing like a caricature of a metal enthusiest usually. and while they may see it as a little corny, they don't generally have any actual problem with it. having a problem with new supporters of your subculture is commonly looked at as gatekeeping. which is not a good look. we all want our special little secret community to stay special and secret forever but when there is inherent value in that community it inevitably always will grow more and more widely adopted.

You bring up metal, but what about punk or hip-hop? What if there's a culture there and it's not about aesthetic but cultural values and promoting it through the subculture and the art. Think about "Nazi Punks Fuck Off" in reaction to skinhead incursions into punk. Or "Fuck Tha Police" as a political anthem against police brutality. Gatekeeping sucks and there's also tensions around subcultural values that come to bear on these discussions. There was a great PBS video on this ages ago:

Here's the story as I see it. Since the 1960s, mainstream media has searched out and co-opted the most authentic things it could find in youth culture, whether that was psychedelic culture, anti-war culture, blue jeans culture. Eventually heavy metal culture, rap culture, electronica -- they'll look for it and then market it back to kids at the mall. And the original kids who are doing it feel really upset about that, because they thought they had found something cool and now it's available at the mall, and now the kids who are participating in it are actually just putting more money into Sony and Time Warner and big corporations. It's a limited view of what's happening, but an honest one and it's something to kind of be upset about, because the idea was to create something that stayed genuine, that stayed the output of teenagers, the output of youth rather than something that's about the consumption by youth. And that's really the big difference: is this our expression or is this our purchase?

So the last great one seemed to be grunge music. It was independent record labels. It was done by local bands in local places. And then this Nirvana phenomenon happened where Nirvana -- who was sort of the best of the grunge bands -- ends up getting picked up by mainstream record labels, sold on MTV and going unplugged there and becoming a mainstream group, ending in the suicide of Kurt Cobain, which, whether or not he was depressed and whether or not he was a drug addict, represented to those of us who felt like we are part of the grunge movement, represented the suicide of the grunge movement. [It] represented Kurt Cobain communicating to all of us, "I've been sucked into the system. I'm part of the borg. The only thing I can do now to prevent my stuff from being used that way is suicide." And it's real. I mean that's the only thing we know about life, right? Death and taxes. You know, so death, this is real. It's the last real thing that he could do, because everything else was becoming part of the fake media world.

Since then, I think the relationship between authentic youth cultural happenings and youth culture consumption is indistinguishable. I think that kids who are on "The Real World" are kids who've aspired to be on MTV their whole lives. They've learned how to behave by watching MTV. So that now when MTV takes a bunch of them and puts them in a house and puts a camera on them, they're not putting a camera in the real world. They are photographing people who've been programmed how to behave by MTV. So where is the reality in the equation? The reality is the introduction of media into this equation. The reality is the media. So that we end up reaching an abstracted form of authenticity that is authentic for the very fact that it's mediated consumptive marketing pulp. The reality itself, the tapestry of reality is composed of media iconography. That is the new plane of reality for these people.

...The way Madison Avenue and the media empire work is they get a kickback for media consumption. They don't care what is passing through their pipes as long as something's passing through their pipes and they can get a little grease off it, you know, accumulate a couple dollars off this momentum. Smart people who understand realize they can feed almost anything into the machine and as long as it creates interest, they're going to get their messages out there, too. So you've got guys like Mike Judge making "Beavis and Butthead" or, you know, Trey Parker making "South Park," or even Eminem -- though probably mentally ill -- he's proving that you can put messages and imagery into the machine that you would think the machine would resist. But the record companies get so much secondary media on it, they get so much hype out of it, that they cannot resist but use this stuff.

So we're in an interesting moment now where because corporations are not really alive, because corporations are really programmed to increase the bottom line by any means necessary, we're in an interesting moment where people who understand how that works can nest their media with very potent ideas, very potent imagery. Whether it's Marilyn Manson or Eminem, you know, this culture of demonology or this imagery of hate or whatever it might be, can spread in ways that normally adults would [have] resisted.

From:

 

[fink]

@Jungleheart I hear you. I hope you remember all the same that we are all part of the loony bin society. Different pockets of sub communities may come and go. They each may suit some individuals and others not so much.

Each sub community may also develop wildly different agendas and interpretations of the subject matter.

But you still know there is something else going on and so do I. That makes us both part of the structure of this reality without any way to leave it behind.

I think what I'm saying is, you cannot leave. Sorry. Love you

 

[IceKoldpp]

sorry if my tone was undesirable. i meant no offense and did actually try to keep it respectful and only engage directly with the subject matter point for point without any personal attacks on @Jungleheart . while i know that it was very clear that i was in degrees of disagreement with the points i responded directly to, that's where it ended. disagreement with the points. and offering another perspective. i thought that was aloud.

and in response to @Varallo on your question of if there is a psychedelics community to speak of and if so what defines it? i would say ofcourse there is. we are engaging in it right now 10 pages in on @Jungleheart 's thread about leaving it. and i would say that centrally it's defined by our shared love of these substances that we use to explore the nature of our individual and shared realities. it has a general shared aesthetic, tons and tons of content across all medias, shared leaders that we look to for wisdom (and yes some surely are bad actors but that is unavoidable and an unfortunate part of every single community ever but the fact that these characters exist suggests that there is a community there that is large enough to make it worth attempting to exploit), and all of the other hallmarks that signify a community exists. and when one stops finding value in a community it is certainly ok to withdraw from it. i was only trying to say that things such as some members not living up to your approval of the presented aesthetic to community work ratio, self granted title (shaman) vs community work ratio, or how high causes you personally care about rank on the list of import of the group as a whole, are unfortunate reasons to withdraw. mostly bc these specific issues are going to be present to some degree in every community. no community is without it's problems but if i had to single only one out that the inherent value outweighs the inherent troubles, the psychedelics community would hands down no question be it.

 

[Memberberries]

I see an interesting tension between this

must every single community put their focus on these things? what if many members of a community see their involvement in said community as a haven from these types of issues and a place to detach or at least temporarily escape having to constantly discuss these things?

And

yes some surely are bad actors but that is unavoidable and an unfortunate part of every single community ever but the fact that these characters exist suggests that there is a community there that is large enough to make it worth attempting to exploit)...things such as some members not living up to your approval of the presented aesthetic to community work ratio, self granted title (shaman) vs community work ratio, or how high causes you personally care about rank on the list of import of the group as a whole, are unfortunate reasons to withdraw. mostly bc these specific issues are going to be present to some degree in every community. no community is without it's problems

The tension I see is between proposing "what if people view the community as an escape from issues of significance" and acknowledging that the "bad actors and important issues that are omnipresent in community contexts are also afoot in the community."

Put another way, if people view the community as an escape from dealing with or addressing certain things, but those things (or variants thereof) are actively happening within the community, then:

Wat do?

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

This post isn't for everyone. It is about how our efforts are better served outside the psychedelic community.

Being a sense of something, for everyone.

Which CLEARLY, we are still cultivatingin our own communities as well! H I N T

Our words and being is so transcendent, that even a thousand years from now, nexus vibes will be relevant to society, because we deal with what always was, and will be, of which transient phenomena are only a small immaterial piece in the vastness. yus aymen

shipibo conibo
orinoco loco



Let's build the circle of energy here. that way, we are here for each other, with high vibes, and there is a place where all can come to, which maintains elevated vibe. If you are a psychonaut and part of this community, and feel so called, feel free to elevate and contribute your own energy to help maintain the vibe.

Don't make me get all weird alone now because if, even here, I need to deal with all these transient fixations ~ I WILL GO CRAZY ON YALL' ~ let's get back into expressing these eternal energies with each other because they are what really matters and that is OUR Ground 0. What's up with these alarming fixations? BOO ephemeral ~


GOOOD MORNING Psychedelic Community, Rise and Shine


Eyes Divine ,

 

[Voidmatrix]

@Varallo things like this, happening outside the psychedelic community, give me a smidgen of hope.

One love

 

[Varallo]

@Varallo things like this, happening outside the psychedelic community, give me a smidgen of hope.

One love

Believe me, there’s a lot more of this going on than what makes the news. People will always strive to improve things, maybe not all, but most will try to make the world a little better in their own way. I get that the future feels uncertain and even bleak right now, and I suspect we’re in for rapid and radical changes. In the end, though, it’s up to the people to shape what happens next.

Don’t loose hope my friend.

 

[blig-blug]

The question before continuing would be whether we can actually speak about an psychedelic community, and if, then what defines this group.

I really agree with this. Maybe it's because I've never been to a so-called psychedelic festival or have friends that are part of a "scene", but to me all of that is completely orthogonal to psychedelics. A certain subculture may like to use certain substances and "iconic" people as symbols, but that doesn't really give them any kind of ownership of them. I don't have a problem with that subculture existing and I may even enjoy some of what it produces, but I don't see it as related to my practice in any way.

I think there's now a push by certain economic interests to create a "psychedelic community" as a consumer group, a target demographic. Certain people hope to see psychedelics become just another commodity, and commodities are usually advertised in an aspirational way. Buy this watch and you'll become a respectable man. Buy this car and people will respect you. So maybe in the future it will be buy and take this psychedelic and you'll become enlightened, someone special and above the rest. So the New Age ideologies that are talked about in this thread would be very useful in that respect.

In reality, you can take a psychedelic and just have fun. Or have a bad time and blame the substance. Or have a psychotic breakdown. Or basically any other human experience. They open certain possibilities and a certain space, but it's up to the person to take advantage from it. If I buy a brush and some paint, that doesn't make me a painter.

I think a community of seekers won't ever look like a hive buzzing around their tribal and status symbols, or working for their queen bees. It will look more like a herd of cats. Open to any, always disbanding and regrouping in different ways. Never being the same. And I think that herd of cats doesn't need symbols and a name. The cats will recognize each other.

 

[IceKoldpp]

if people view the community as an escape from dealing with or addressing certain things, but those things (or variants thereof) are actively happening within the community, then:

in all honesty i think my points were laid out clearly enough. and i'm not sure if this was on purpose or not but you're conflating my responses to two seperate points and responding as if they were to the same point. creating "tension" where none exists. i'm not saying that addressing pertinent issues is pointless or unwelcome. obviously if there are problems arising inside a community they should be addressed. but the two @Jungleheart used specifically when it comes to not addressing broader issues (climate change and systematic inequality), these aren't exactly massively pressing issues relative to the psychedelics community.. I'm sure if someone was feeling extra debate bro ish they could connect a bunch of dots to show how they are but if we're being real.. like come on.

put another way. i was trying in my comment to intellectualize gently without sounding like a jerk but what the heck, i'm arguing in good faith so i'll just bluntly say it. it just came off a bit like going to a pokemon card collecting group to engage w/ like minded ppl ab pokemon cards and then someone stands up and says "we're not talking enough ab racism and i feel this is holding us back so i'm leaving".

like yea dude. we all can agree racism sucks. but we're mostly here for the pokemon. so if racism has to become an issue placed at the top of our list of actionable items for you to stay and feel your time is well spent here then maybe there are groups that would be more aligned with your priorities and you should engage with those groups rather than shaming us pokemon collectors for not focusing enough on racism at our flippin' pokemon card club..

Wat do?

not totally sure. but leaving probably isn't the answer. or maybe it is. it does have a bit of the classic "i'm taking my ball and going home" energy though.

 

[ABe©eDarian]

CartMan is right sometimes however absurdly fatslimmyjoyz. The Almond NoiZ.

 

[Memberberries]

I don't want to argue with you Mr. PP, especially given some of the framing, but I do think the issues of climate disaster and systemic inequality (and others) are alive and well within psychedelic communities. You've already proclaimed it would make one a "debate bro" to offer examples to the contrary so I won't because that feels counterproductive to the exasperation you've already expressed about it (and I don't want to be a debate or any other kind of "bro").

That said, I think it's worth just pointing out that junglegeart's #1 issue was gender inequality which is definitely present, I think, and was a big part of why I replied as I did.

I don't think I conflated or added tension where there is none: I find or experience the very tension you're insisting isn't present to be at hand in the post you just made insisting it's not here. We may have different perspectives on if or how we encounter these tensions, which could result from other differences between us such as gender, race, ethnicity, broader lived experiences or what have you. I don't know you so I can only guess and I'd probably get it very wrong.

like yea dude. we all can agree racism sucks. but we're mostly here for the pokemon. so if racism has to become an issue placed at the top of our list of actionable items for you to stay and feel your time is well spent here then maybe there are groups that would be more aligned with your priorities and you should engage with those groups rather than shaming us pokemon collectors for not focusing enough on racism at our flippin' pokemon card club.

I do find it curious when people speak in we statements, particularly when they speak about others' wants or intentions or motivations or experiences, particularly when I'm included in that we grouping but don't see myself reflected.

Maybe some of us find that we encounter sexism or racism at our local Pokemon card collecting group? Maybe some of us are trans and/or want to share the fun of Pokemon card collecting with our other trans friends but don't want them to experience transphobia that we've encountered at our local branch of the Pokemon card collecting group? Maybe we want to have discussions so we can make our Pokemon card collecting group more hospitable to ourselves and those we care about because of how much we enjoy Pokemon. So then those conversations become important actionable items for us at our Pokemon card collecting group.

Maybe some people at our Pokemon card collecting group have the luxury of being able to ignore such issues even when they pop up in our local group because they truly don't care or aren't affected by those issues or maybe they just love Pokemon so much that they don't mind if there's negative or toxic things within or in close proximity to their Pokemon club. But for those of us who live with the realities that come with certain identities or experiences and who still want to enjoy Pokemon, we may not have that luxury. Maybe some people would want to make exclusive (say women-only) Pokemon card groups, but those groups might seem like more of an escape from rather than an addressing of the underlying issues that gave rise to them in the first place.

So the "wat do" could be understood to mean, "what if I want to engage with my Pokemon card collecting groups but in various groups I encounter unintentional (or intentional) sentiments or actions that are hostile to me or dismissive of my experiences and when I try to get engagement with that, people tell me that my experiences around that simply aren't the reason the group exists and if I want engagement around those experiences I should go find other groups to engage with rather than these Pokemon card collecting groups, but also if I leave the group that has big 'I'm taking my ball and going home energy'."

I think there's very real tension in that.