Google says that Harnala and harmaline is neurotoxic

[smoalkiest]

Hi guys I just found out through Google that Harmony or Syrian rue is neurotoxic. Google it to see what I'm talking about, what are you guys think? It does mention high doses is neurotoxic so maybe small doses is not I'm not sure but just curious what you guys think

 

[Nydex]

There are many things that are neurotoxic in high doses yet beneficial in low doses, such as oxygen, glutamate, various vitamins, manganese, selenium and so on. Please share your sources so that we can more accurately ascertain the validity of such a claim.

 

[blig-blug]

Sola dosis facit venenum.

 

[doubledog]

Google it to see what I'm talking about, what are you guys think?

This is not how it works here.
Please share your input directly and we can discuss it.

 

[Nydex]

I once read on Google that you can achieve a state of de-facto photosynthesis and survive only on water and sunlight if you unlock enough chakras, so yeah, you can read a lot of material of questionable quality out there. A skeptical approach seems to always be preferable to blindly trusting whatever it is you might read, especially if it comes from these "AI summaries" that have started popping up with every browser search you do. These have been shown to be wildly inaccurate the majority of the time.

 

[northape]

Hi guys I just found out through Google that Harmony or Syrian rue is neurotoxic. Google it to see what I'm talking about, what are you guys think? It does mention high doses is neurotoxic so maybe small doses is not I'm not sure but just curious what you guys think

 

[universecannon]

I once read on Google that you can achieve a state of de-facto photosynthesis and survive only on water and sunlight if you unlock enough chakras, so yeah, you can read a lot of material of questionable quality out there. A skeptical approach seems to always be preferable to blindly trusting whatever it is you might read, especially if it comes from these "AI summaries" that have started popping up with every browser search you do. These have been shown to be wildly inaccurate the majority of the time.

 

[Voidmatrix]

This is what Google just spit at me.

In short, harmala alkaloids (found in plants like Peganum harmala and Banisteriopsis caapi) are not considered directly neurotoxic to humans at typical ceremonial or therapeutic doses. However, they can be highly dangerous and cause acute central nervous system (CNS) toxicity or overstimulation if taken in excessive amounts or combined with certain medications

The dose makes the toxin.

One love

 

[northape]

I get that AI is trendy and Google is a know-it-all now, but people need to start thinking for themselves.
Do your research, understand how maoi work, and learn what makes rue/caapi special. Take responsibility for your life and educate yourself.
Otherwise, you can just ask Google about the effects of dmt or rue and enjoy them that way

 

[Voidmatrix]

I get that AI is trendy and Google is a know-it-all now, but people need to start thinking for themselves.
Do your research, understand how maoi work, and learn what makes rue/caapi special. Take responsibility for your life and educate yourself.
Otherwise, you can just ask Google about the effects of dmt or rue and enjoy them that way

Here's a start.

Post in thread 'Changa Musings' Changa Musings


One love

 

[new_science]

"Syrian rue tea: a recipe for disaster"

Thanks to this one very well SEOed ".gov" hosted article, our wonderfully (and rightfully) revered harmal is destined to remain culturally underground...

 

[Voidmatrix]

"Syrian rue tea: a recipe for disaster"

Thanks to this one very well SEOed ".gov" hosted article, our wonderfully (and rightfully) revered harmal is destined to remain culturally underground...

Don't you love how a plant gets blamed for human error, naivete, stupidity.

Syrian rue tea: a recipe for disaster - PubMed

Peganum harmala, commonly called "Syrian rue," is native to countries around the Mediterranean sea and western United States. Known for its sedative effects when consumed by farm animals, its seeds have stimulant and hallucinogenic effects at low doses (3-4 g when eaten) in humans. Its active...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Reading the abstract, I am wondering why anyone felt the need to write this at all.

One love

 

[Transform]

patients usually recover with supportive therapy alone.

Indeed.

 

[Prima Materia]

I've found one study where they gave something like 300mg/kg to rats and found the compound to be toxic. No wonder ...

 

[aizoaceous]

Reading the abstract, I am wondering why anyone felt the need to write this at all.

I think their title was excessively sensational, but their abstract was insufficiently so. The full paper is available on Sci-Hub and shows the severity, five days in the ICU:

A toxicology laboratory was not available in our area. The patient was transferred to the ICU where she continued to remain unresponsive, but within an hour she developed a respiratory rate of 50/minute. She was then paralyzed, intubated, and placed on a ventilator. By the fourth day, the patient was spontaneously breathing while remaining intubated. On day five, she was extubated without problems. Her renal function tests peaked on day four, while her liver function tests peaked on day six. A full list of her laboratory results and their progression during her hospital stay are given in Table 1. After waking, she confirmed the initial history given by the patient's relative, that she had consumed only P. harmala in her tea, in order to "calm her nerves." Neither she nor her relative was able to remember if she had co-ingested tyrosine-containing foods on the day of the ingestion.

It's unfortunate that no toxicology lab was available, but the initial effects (visual hallucinations) seem consistent with high doses of harmalas. So I'd guess the seeds were correctly identified, and her symptoms are just the high end of the dose-response curve. TiHKAL reports doses up to 28 g seeds, 500 mg harmaline, or 900 mg harmine, which seemed unpleasant but not obviously life-threatening.

Returning to the original topic, these authors don't report any evidence of neurotoxicity even with the massive overdose and their patient appears to have recovered well. I'm not aware of other evidence of neurotoxicity at anything near usual doses. So that part seems like it's probably just an LLM hallucination.

I think the risks of harmalas at typical doses to potentiate DMT are extremely low, and the risks at typical doses to induce hallucinations alone are reasonably low. The margin between the latter and a lethal dose may be smaller than I'd have guessed without this paper though.

 

[northape]

I think the idea that p. harmala is toxic comes from the heavy state high doses produce. For a normal person who is not accustomed to the plant, it can indeed feel like a poison. We just try to find the closest reference in our experience, and food or alcohol poisoning fits the bill. For years, people talked about maoi diet with rue, when it's actually a much more forgiving plant than the early pharmaceutical maois. Then, there was talk that some of rue's alkaloids are toxic, which was totally false. Yes, p. harmala is not caapi and why would it be? It's a sacred plant and folk medicine in many traditions, tested over millennia. If it were so toxic, people would never cultivate it and would try to destroy or avoid the plant instead. Everything esoteric is always in the open, because to truly know it you need to earn the right. People are so into comfort today that even vomiting (a fully normal bodily function) is looked down upon. It's just a method for the body-mind to cleanse itself. What is there to fear?

Sola dosis facit venenum.