Growing NN-DMT in Europe

[Jahvisions]

Hi People,

Probably this is discussed here somewhere before, but I am a newbee on this topic (maybe you can give links to other threads/posts) but I want to grow my own plants outside.

1. I want to make a summary of best plants/sources that you can grow yourself if not living near the equator or tropical conditions that give the highest amounts of NN-DMT in a reasonable amount of time.
2. So Idealy you want plants that produce the highest amount of NN-DMT which doesn't take forever, which contains no other alkaloids and are also winterhard.
3. If not ideal which plants have you can grow that have the highest amount of NN-DMT but has to go inside during winter and/or does contain other alkaloids.
4. So are there any preferences of plants? Plants that can stay outside during winter vs bringing them inside? Plants that have higher amounts of NN-DMT but also has other alkaloids that needs to be separted? Plants that have lower concentrations of NN-DMT but are a better source for purity if you don't need to seperate other alkaloids?

 

[Jahvisions]

To clarify:

1. I am looking for both: a plant that can stay outside during winter.
2. And a plant that gives the highest amount of NN-DMT, but which you have to grow in pots so you can take them inside during winter. Production is more important than purity since other alkaloids can be separated easily.

 

[Transform]

It's a good idea of yours to systematise this information here. [Funny that you should describe yourself as a newbie despite being ultra-OG in your membership here! Do you have any kind of a shortlist of your own? Most of what I know has been gleaned from this forum over the years.]

On a practical note, I just planted some newly-sprouted Acacia retinodes seeds, which were obtained from a tree in SW England, and I shall be seeing how they fare as container plants in continental NW Europe. I might try putting one or two in the ground somewhere and see if they can tolerate the dark, cold and damp. Your location is likely to have a broadly similar climate to mine, maybe even a bit warmer on average. It seems fair to suggest that there may be a few species of acacia which could fit the bill, both in hardiness and in (reasonable) cleanliness of content. I would go for planting as many specimens as possible from as many different species as is practicable, after some careful research to determine which acacias would be likely to be worth cultivating, as well as taking into account their rate of maturation into the productive phase, since you could easily be looking at a five-year wait here unless you're able to find older saplings, of course.

Phalaris won't generally fit the clean alkaloid profile criterion, although you should be following the phalaris threads if you're not already. They're pretty hardy plants for the most par - and, while, exceedingly abundant in the wild, they rarely seem to have a worthwhile alkaloid content. Getting hold of a known active strain would be desirable with this genus.

With indoor overwintering of your plants, the range of species is only limited by your ability to match their growing conditions, which in turn tends to be influenced by the amount of space you have available. Growing chacruna might not be entirely outside the realms of possibility, for example.

 

[donfoolio]

To grow n,n- plants in Europe, I see three options:

1.) join the phalaris research group and help them to select interesting cultivars for the molecule. At the moment, there are relatively pure strains with 5-MeO but not so much pure NN strain, but it seems highly feasible since selection can bring you where tou want.

2.) Psychotria grows well in Europe if it is protected from frost during the winter season. This implicates to have a shelter at hand and it limits the amount of plants that can be grown. But even on a few meter square, you can handle a dozen of plants that will provide enough material for your personal consumption. The nexus breed is the most interesting for its cold hardiness.

3.) Maybe in a nearby future, plants from Lespedeza spp. with a pure NN - profile will be available. The plants have been analysed and grown in central Europe, but for the moment they are not available on a commercial scale.

 

[Transform]

3.) Maybe in a nearby future, plants from Lespedeza spp. with a pure NN - profile will be available. The plants have been analysed and grown in central Europe, but for the moment they are not available on a commercial scale.

Do you have any more info on this? Lespedeza spp. have stayed on the back burner for me, so to speak, for several years so it's good to hear that progress has been made somewhere. Taking a guess, this could be an STS thing?

 

[Transform]

Fully understandable. All the same, a Lespedeza TLC/research thread, to parallel that of the Phalaris Research Group would be a welcome addition to the forum. Or - meeeowww! - is that the sound of a cat being let out of the bag already?

 

[modern]

There was a video on 5-meo plant sources which included lespedeza bicolor stated in the video.

Lespedeza bicolor vsar. japanica contains "lespedamine" (1-Meo_DMT) which is structually realated to DMT and was speculated to have psychoactivity by Sasha Shulgin.

however no public reports on biological activity published.

There are a multitude of plant however with very cold winters you will likely need a greenhouse for the more traditional plants since a majority are tropical or subtropical plants.

I second the suggestion of nexus clone. Psychotria grow pretty well and fast for personal use. In cooler regions providing a dry period researchers here have shown that content can be as high as 10mg per gram when harvested early morning or night. dropping to 5mg/g midday harvest. In hot regions content is around 5mg/g at peak.

My psychotria can handle down to -2C in a microclimate with protection from winds. In my region the churches have exposed plants without issues. So I'd say safe to around -5C accounting for wind chill.

 

[Jahvisions]

Thx for the info: I will definitly check out the Phalaris research group.

Although I am a longtime member I have never grew DMT plants for myself, only cacti.

With DMT I extracted only from Mimosa I bought. Normally I stick to known procedures and sources but I understand is not ecofriendly or harming nature because these plants probably take years to grow and also is not a reliable source here in Europe. Also if possible, I like the idea of growing you own sustainable source.

I live in the Netherlands by the way, so North of Europe (which maybe is or isn't important production wise?) For instance the summer is longer in Spain but during winter it still is freezing below -5C, so probably you still want to grow in pots instead of full earth so you have the option to take them inside.

I also have to do some research for myself but basically people are growing 3 plants if I understand correctly: Acacia types, Phalaris types and Psychotria types.

 

[donfoolio]

I know a guy from southern France who grows Psychotria outdoors in summer, and dig up the plants in pots for overwintering.
The growth of course is speeded up by this technique.

 

[Transform]

I also have to do some research for myself but basically people are growing 3 plants if I understand correctly: Acacia types, Phalaris types and Psychotria types.

We can add the "possibly, maybe" of @donfoolio's Lespedeza connection. Perhaps Desmanthus leptolobus could be added as another in this category. Both of these fit into the broad class of legumes alongside acacia.

The other option is, of course, chemistry - but I won't be going into that here.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

We can add the "possibly, maybe" of @donfoolio's Lespedeza connection. Perhaps Desmanthus leptolobus could be added as another in this category. Both of these fit into the broad class of legumes alongside acacia.

The other option is, of course, chemistry - but I won't be going into that here.

I'm always hungry for info about Desmanthus illinoensis since it seems to grow here quite easily on it's own once you scatter seeds. I had one leptolobus plant years ago but due to it's low, ground hugging, growth habit, it gets choked out very easily. I've been meaning to purchase some seeds and carefully cultivate it, but I'm too b̶u̶s̶y̶ lazy.

 

[Jahvisions]

We can add the "possibly, maybe" of @donfoolio's Lespedeza connection. Perhaps Desmanthus leptolobus could be added as another in this category. Both of these fit into the broad class of legumes alongside acacia.

The other option is, of course, chemistry - but I won't be going into that here.

Maybe I understood wrong? I thought Leptolobus was a form of Lespedeza species, which you said isn't commercialy available?

 

[Transform]

Maybe I understood wrong? I thought Leptolobus was a form of Lespedeza species, which you said isn't commercialy available?

Lespedeza species are commercially available, just not any guaranteed DMT-only cultivars. Desmanthus leptolobus (small 'l') was always said to have a better alkaloid profile than D. illinoiensis, but it would seem to require special care in cultivation as per @brokedownpalace10's experience. Both genera are in the order formerly known as Leguminosae.

Lespedeza - leptolobus - leguminosae: I can understand how this might get confusing!

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Lespedeza species are commercially available, just not any guaranteed DMT-only cultivars. Desmanthus leptolobus (small 'l') was always said to have a better alkaloid profile than D. illinoiensis, but it would seem to require special care in cultivation as per @brokedownpalace10's experience. Both genera are in the order formerly known as Leguminosae.

Lespedeza - leptolobus - leguminosae: I can understand how this might get confusing!

It has what they call a prostrate growth habit. It grows along the surface of the ground. Trout says it's hard to spot until you are right up on it.

Desmanthus leptolobus

I only had one plant and I didn't weed it well enough and it didn't come back the next year probably since it was having a hard time competing. I think it's also not as cold hardy as Illinoensis. It's growth range is a little further south but still temperate zone.
I had one Illinoensis plant as well and it not only came back, a few other plants began popping up in my yard. I have kind of mowed around them for years.

I get the impression that Leptolobus would do fine if you just used vegetable gardening techniques and weeded well and maybe mulched them.

 

[donfoolio]

If I get it right, the active Lespedeza was found in a group of plants which were mostly inactive. So depending on the phenotype, DMT production doesn't seem stable.
Therefore only working with an analysed clone will give results.

Of course there may be many phenotypes with a pure DMT profile out there, but advances in this direction are slow and need more time and work.

 

[Jahvisions]

Hi sorry, its been a while, busy, busy ;-)
A little update: my psychotria all died. I had 3 nexus breeds of which one came in dead already but the others died pretty quickly. The other two UDV and DW07 i think which survived much longer. I took them in during winter but had massive infestation of fungus gnats that where effectivly destroyed with 2 treatments of nematodes. But they are not really forgiving to grow. First I gave them to much sun, but I also didn’t had my soil right and didnt check pH. Hopefully better luck next time

 

[Transform]

Hi sorry, its been a while, busy, busy ;-)
A little update: my psychotria all died. I had 3 nexus breeds of which one came in dead already but the others died pretty quickly. The other two UDV and DW07 i think which survived much longer. I took them in during winter but had massive infestation of fungus gnats that where effectivly destroyed with 2 treatments of nematodes. But they are not really forgiving to grow. First I gave them to much sun, but I also didn’t had my soil right and didnt check pH. Hopefully better luck next time

Thanks for the update - it's equally important here to document what not to do, so if there's any further detail that can be added that would be most helpful.

Has there anything in particular that you'd say contributed to finishing them off completely?

 

[Orion]

I never had much luck with psychotria until I gave it some form of enclosure to increase the humidity. Then it did extremely well with dense dark green foliage and plenty of it. I never successfully adjusted it to even indoor conditions without the extra humidity. I found it drying up over many months until cuttings were taken and I would start over.

 

[xa]

Its difficult to start psychortia from seed ? Im european too and i was think about acacia but also i woukd try psychortia.

 

[Jahvisions]

I started from clones or little plants. I think this link is by one who made or is connected to the person who developed these breeds. I should have followed the growing guide. Humidity seemed to be a factor but I thought I could get away with some basic garden soil mix with a little perlite like growing cactus (nowadays I actually mostly use pumice and a little lava rock for my cacti) or cannabis

The Ultimate Psychotria Growing Guide (Psychotria viridis and its hybrids)

The ultimate guide to growing and propagating Psychotria viridis (Chacruna) and its hybrids.

herbalistics.com.au