Harmala and nausea

[Rabbit]

Somewhere within the fabric of spacetime, there exists a rabbit which consumed 100mg full-spectrum harmala alkaloids, followed 40 minutes later by three strong hits of marjoram infused with A. Confusa alkaloids (in the form of a sticky more-white-than-yellow goo).

The experience was out of this world, and mostly beyond comprehension. Imagine an infinite matrix of psychedelic pyramids with an eye in the middle multiplying upon each other, understand that that was only maybe ten seconds of the roughly two-hour experience (which felt like a day), and you might be able to tap the surface of what the experience was like.
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Back on topic though, this rabbit also got very nauseous during the beginning of the trip. It didn't throw up but it had to hunch itself over the toilet for a good few minutes, which was unfortunate because this happened right near the beginning when the rabbit really would like to have just laid back and seen what happened without such a rude distraction.

After the attempted purging and laying on the ground for a few minutes until it could get a grip on the nasty nauseous feeling, which almost ruined the experience, it finally made its way back to the bed and ultimately did have a wonderful, rather intense trip.
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Fast-forward to three-four hours later, the rabbit was still nauseous and unable to sleep. Sleep finally came around the 8-hour mark after taking the harmala alkaloids. It is now the 13-hour mark, and the nausea is still definitely here (though lessened.)

I have read that harmala alkaloids have a half-life of 6 hours, meaning by now the active dose of alkaloid in its system should be no more than 25mg. I've also heard that with other MAOIs, it's important not to consume cheese or other certain foods. The rabbit did indeed have pizza for lunch earlier that day, but I've heard that with harmalas it didn't really matter because the MAO-B would break down tyramine properly.

Would a lower harmala dose still result in the necessary MAO inhibition? Would carefully controlling one's diet (to eliminate cheese and other such foods) help? Maybe less DMT even would have been beneficial? Perhaps the fact that both the harmala and the Acacia extract were full-spectrum, or that it was infused on marjoram instead of some other herb had a part. In any case, how can the rabbit limit/prevent these nasty side effects in the future?

 

[pitubo]

In my experience, harmalas last 3 to 4 hours. You could do an experiment by taking the harmalas without tryptamines and noticing the effects while they last. The effects of harmalas only are not strongly psychedelic, but quite noticable, both physically and mentally. This way you can find out how long the harmalas last for you.

Of course, you should abstain from foodstuffs like cheese before eating harmalas. And not just cheese, anything that contains substantial amounts of tyramine. And many types of beans, that contain other poisonous alkaloids that would normally be digested by MAO enzymes in the gut and liver. And some herbs... There are several useful threads on the forum discussing these matters.

Perhaps not everybody is equally sensitive, so while one person may be sick from a bit of cheese, another may not be troubled at all. Another circumstance to mind is that as long as food is in your digestive tract, any tyramine in it is taken up into the blood stream when the MAO enzymes become blocked by MAOIs. In the reverse order, tyramine containing foods are less likely to cause problems when eaten after the harmala alkaloids are out of the system.

 

[Rabbit]

Okay, next time he'll abstain from cheese and other tyramine-containing foods beforehand. The rabbit doesn't really eat beans so that's not a problem. He'll also avoid chocolate and pork, and try to stay away from processed/fried foods that week. Maybe it will make a difference. After all, the natives certainly had their reasons for it.

I've also heard that there are those who metabolize harmala alkaloids quickly and those who metabolize them more slowly, due to some genetic variation in an enzyme or smthn. Maybe rabbits like this one metabolize it slower.

Think he'll also have to redo this experience either earlier in the day, or on a night where he don't have any obligations the next day. The harmala does not seem to let the rabbit sleep at all. (Will also take at least one hit less. This rabbit definitely over-did it this time. )

 

[pitubo]

100 mg harmala alkaloids is not a particularly large dose. For effective oral effect, I wouldn't go much lower, but your mileage may vary, as they say.

About the lack of sleep from harmalas, I also have this. But I find that if I keep quiet and dreamy, I don't actually need the sleep that night.

 

[Global]

I think your persistent nausea has less to do with tyramine and more to do with eating greasy food prior. I would try to keep a healthy diet for the day you're planning on taking harmalas.

 

[universecannon]

I doubt tyramine was the issue. It's metabolized by mao-b and harmalas mostly inhibit mao-a only, so it's usually not a problem for people and the whole recommendation roots back to a misunderstanding on the part of westerners.

That said diet can certainly play a role in increasing the nausea and purging, especially if it's junk food. And a more clean and healthy diet seems to really help make the spaces overall more functional and less nauseating IME.

Also realize though that nausea and purging is just a part of the experience at some point or another, not always but if the dose reaches a sufficient amount it is a certainty. This all goes on far below toxic levels though and it's not really anything to be avoided/resisted, since that will just make it worse. Usually laying down in silent darkness makes nausea easily manageable, unless it's a whopper dose. Actually resisting the purge will just prolong nausea and uncomfortable effects IME, and from what I hear by others, and can make for a much rougher experience. If your dry heaving maybe try drinking something. This is a good thread to be aware of to: the misunderstood purge

And Pitubo, harmalas are actually very psychedelic at high doses in silent darkness, even without DMT. It's sort of a learned thing though in some ways.

 

[pitubo]

I doubt tyramine was the issue. It's metabolized by mao-b and harmalas mostly inhibit mao-a only, so it's usually not a problem for people and the whole recommendation roots back to a misunderstanding on the part of westerners.

While I agree that the chances for a full-blown hypertensive crisis are likely overrated in the case of harmalas, the effects of harmalas should IMHO not be underestimated either. I have found that tyramine does have an effect on me when taking over 200 mg of harmalas (250 mg is my standard for pharma). There is a definite body load and unpleasant tension when tyramine is involved. For me, unneccessary food interactions detract from the proper experience.

And Pitubo, harmalas are actually very psychedelic at high doses in silent darkness, even without DMT. It's sort of a learned thing though in some ways.

No doubt about it. But I said it isn't a strong psychedelic, you need to take much more than a minimal effective dose for the psychedelic effects. 100 mg is not very psychedelic, but still the mental and physical effect is noticable.

 

[jamie]

Im never effected by tyramine..but the effects from higher doses of harmalas can go for 24 hours in my experience, including nausea and light trails.

 

[Sabnock]

It's simple really, the Harmala alkaloids themselves cause nausea and are purgatives. The higher the dose, the more nausea and purging. I've even tried not eating anything the day of Ayahuasca, and still had horrible nausea and a good bit of purging, in fact, for me it's worse on an empty stomach, and so a light meal should be eaten about 6 hours before Ayahuasca, ime, and by light i mean something that will be easily broken down/digested.

Oh and Cannabis is the only thing i've found that can reliably lessen the nausea from Ayahuasca and it works great.

 

[Rabbit]

Well whether tyramine actually affects anything or not, this rabbit will do its best to limit it in the diet, as well as greasy foods and other rather unhealthy substances. I actually have a list compiled from a few sources of what's safe and not safe to eat a week, a day and a few hours before a trip.

The basic regemen is to limit cheese, pork, alcohol (particularly beer), drugs (except light marijuana if necessary), and greasy/heavy foods. These restrictions tighten as the set date for the experience gets closer. I figure a diet of mostly fruits, veggies and berries, poultry, non-fried seafood, and lightly buttered rice for a week would be fine. (Probably good to do anyways!)

The rabbit will keep a trashcan and water next to its bed next time for purging as well, as to prevent having to journey to the bathroom to deal with the physical stuff. And will tone down the dose (of the tryptamine) a little next time. This rabbit tried to hop before it could walk.

Ultimately nausea may just be a part of the experience for it when involving an MAOI. Unfortunate circumstances prevent the rabbit from partaking in marijuana. However, given that the rabbit has a strange reaction to shrooms+weed, that may not be a good idea anyways. (But that's a topic for another thread.)

Regarding the insomnia, yeah pitubo that is true..perhaps the problem is not that it causes insomnia, rather that it caused insomnia at inopportune times. Perhaps rabbit should rest beforehand, and do this at a time when it has no major obligations the next day. That way, sleep is unnecessary anyways.

Thanks for all of the tips guys! You're a helpful bunch and this is a great resource.

 

[Rabbit]

The rabbit, in preparation for an aya trip a few weeks ago took 150mg harmala alkaloids. Rabbit never did take the DMT however.

With just the harmala alkaloids in the rabbit's system, two things happened:
* The rabbit got violently nauseous
* The rabbit was hallucinating.

He had heard that harmala was psychedelic in its own right, but until actually seeing it, didn't really buy into it. The trip is notably different from that of a tryptamine-based one, he said.

Regarding the illness, I think there were a few things in play there. First, The rabbit had been eating all week on a bag of store-brand chicken that kept upsetting his stomach, and second, 150mg was probably too high of a dose for its body, especially on a light/empty stomach.

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With the unsuccessful experience above, the rabbit planned a second journey this evening. With a home-cooked burger in its stomach (very small amount of cheese), he took 100mg harmalas, followed an hour later by ~25mg DMT.

He says the experience was quite moving. He did still experience nausea. However, he was able to cause it to subside just by closing his eyes and relaxing every once in awhile.

Ironically, the rabbit decided to hop around outside for a bit, and pretty much the instant he went outside away from his dwelling, he started to feel better! Perhaps just being trapped indoors had a role.

 

[Global]

I was re-reading this post as if it were new, and it's always funny how you react differently after even only a couple months. I'm honestly surprised I thought that tyramine had much to do with it. I'll point out two things from your OP that caught my attention the second time. First of all, you note that you were using "full-spectrum" harmala alkaloids, but if this is the case, then it doesn't sound too much different nausea-wise than having taken the harmalas in plant form. You've left in some of the more nauseating parts. If you were to isolate harmine, harmaline and THH, and take them in the proper ratio, you'd probably be less likely to get so sick.

You also talked about the half-life of harmalas and how there should theoretically be no more than 25mg in your system, but it should be taken into account that when I used to vape harmine in the 25mg range, there would always be the chance that I would get nauseous from it. If you're like me, I have a weak stomach, and harmalas in any form, on any diet have the chance of getting me nauseous. It is an unfortunate drawback, but that's the way the cookie crumbles.

 

[Jox]

Regarding the illness, I think there were a few things in play there. First, The rabbit had been eating all week on a bag of store-brand chicken that kept upsetting his stomach, and second, 150mg was probably too high of a dose for its body, especially on a light/empty stomach

Always take harmalas on empt stomach, my last meal on pharma night is 7 hours ago.

What is the plant you extract harmalas from?
Can you tell me what steps you take?

 

[Rabbit]

The rabbit buys his harmine/harmaline, as the actual plant is controlled in his locality.

 

[Jox]

Hmmm too bad that you can't get the plants, I thought if rue extraction, if not clean it can get you nausea.

Make sure to have empty stomach. We used to,have one small bite of bread and olive oil before taking harmala to activate gallbladder, but not anymore: after half day fast one gets hungry so even if the bite is too big it will cause nausea. So I would say empty stomach.

But I am just thinking should antivomit medication be taken, like for Ibogaine full flood, I forgot what I was taking? Any idea?

 

[DreaMTripper]

Harmalas have a wide range of effects more than just inhibiting MAO. Even when smoked/vaped nausea can occur.
The age old remedy for nausea is ginger, cannabis works too cancer patients have been using it for years.

 

[Sabnock]

Peppermint tea has been helping with Harmala-related nausea, it works awesomely at a gram, or even two grams, though i prefer one gram. I take the Peppermint and Lemon Balm tea preferably an hour before taking the Harmalas and everything has been fine for me so far, zero nausea. But Cannabis with the Peppermint tea and you've got a completely iron stomach lol.

 

[--Shadow]

I made the Ayahuasca using Syrian Rue & Acacia confusa tea for me and a mate (though without the lemon-balm tea - which I now have but didn;t at the time). I couldn't keep it down long enough to get much effects, but my mate had no problems at all... all he had eaten previously that morning was a bananna.

 

[Rabbit]

Well, the rabbit tried its luck with harmala alkaloids again, 110mg, this time on an empty stomach and monitoring its diet closely since the day beforehand, and still got particularly sick..worse than previous experiments. The rabbit did throw up (not that there was much to puke), but still felt noticeably sick even after, and this greatly diminished the experience as the rabbit spent a good amount of it curled up with its eyes closed, wishing the nausea would pass. The rabbit says it truly feels like it had been poisoned.

There are a few things I want the rabbit to try.

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First, I've found out that many terpenes are 5-HT3 antagonists (meaning they prevent nausea as a result of substances/toxins binding to the 5-HT3 receptor which mediates certain bodily functions including nausea. To back that, I've seen lemon oil, peppermint oil, cumin, ginger and cinnamon all recommended for both harmala-based and tryptamine-based nausea.

Furthermore, cannabis, which is known to have an anti-nausea property, is loaded with aromatic terpenes - and I'm willing to bet that's what gives it that property. For specific reasons, the rabbit can't use cannabis, however.

The first 4 spices contain lemonene, pugelone, cumene, and beta-pinene, all of which are aromatic terpenes and all of which have shown efficacy towards nausea. Ginger contains gingerol, which apparently relaxes the muscle in the stomach responsible for the physical effects of nausea. Not sure the reason behind cinnamon's anti-nausea effect, though I suspect it to be related to that of ginger.

The idea is to make a potion with a reasonable amount of each of these substances, and feed it to the rabbit along with the harmala alkaloids. Thinking a few drops of each, sipped on throughout the experience as needed, would produce about as much of an iron stomach as one can get (without cannabis ofc.)

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Second, I would like to see if pure harmine results in less nausea. As I've come to understand, harmaline is more likely to cause nausea than harmine..also, as mentioned earlier, as these are full-spectrum alkaloids, other components could be playing a significant role as well.

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In any case, a solution must be found, else this shall not be sustainable. The harmalas do not seem to agree with the rabbit's body (they cause insomnia in it as well, a 'burnt out' feeling after the experience, and the rabbit complains of vivid dreams/nightmares the night after.) Truly a shame because it really enjoys the actual experience, but the side effects are an anchor dug deep into the dirt.

 

[endlessness]

Ginger also contains galanolactone, which is a 5HT3 antagonist. Just remember to eat the ginger itself, fresh or powdered, instead of making a tea, because that compound is NOT water soluble. I think the anti nausea dosage used in cancer patients was 1g of powder, I´d have to look again to be sure. It does seem to help with harmalas/ayahuasca nausea but it is not 100%.

IME both harmine and harmaline equally can induce nausea even purified. Do try ginger and if you want those other compounds too and let us know if it works for you.

Lastly, do what you can, but sometimes you just gotta embrace nausea. It seems horrible when it happens but can also be an opportunity for insights and personal growth, through experiencing weakness, thinking about one`s mortality, becoming stronger by being able to endure through a difficult experience, etc.

Be well!