Harmala-heavy ayahuasca/pharma vs dmt-heavy

[maranello551]

How are they different? People say harmala-heavy (aka jungle style) is more intense..what does intense mean?? Like visually or body load or what?

I'm sure if you add more dmt it would be more intense too so that tells me nothing.

Anyone care to describe the differences between high harmala low dmt (like 4-7g rue or 100-200g caapi with like 40-100mg dmt) and low harmala high dmt (like 2-3g rue or 20-50g caapi with like 200-400mg dmt)

I've had trouble finding a good thread on this anywhere.
Thanks.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

How are they different? People say harmala-heavy (aka jungle style) is more intense..what does intense mean?? Like visually or body load or what?

I'm sure if you add more dmt it would be more intense too so that tells me nothing.

Anyone care to describe the differences between high harmala low dmt (like 4-7g rue or 100-200g caapi with like 40-100mg dmt) and low harmala high dmt (like 2-3g rue or 20-50g caapi with like 200-400mg dmt)

I've had trouble finding a good thread on this anywhere.
Thanks.

To add to what I replied in your other post, please be patient. It may take the right person with the right answer some time to even read your post. Even then, they may think about a reply for a bit before the do respond.

Another thing to consider is that most of the persons on this forum do not to brews, they do extractions. More are smoking instead of ingesting, so you are asking the minority. Please be patient.

 

[maranello551]

Even so though. I suppose my question goes out to those using pharmahuasca with extracted light and maybe even extracted harmalas.

High harmala to dmt ratio vs vice-versa differences whether brews or pharmahuasca?

 

[Poads]

I could certainly be wrong, but I have always assumed that the MAOI dosage simply needed to be high enough to allow the DMT to be orally active. Additional MAOI might lengthen the duration of the trip, but it shouldn't intensify it by any noteworthy amount. It is a higher DMT dosage that will cause a more intense trip. The DMT is what is making you trip. The MAOI just prevents the DMT from being broken down too quickly. And when I say intense, I mean so in every possible regard... more visuals, greater body load, etc.

Same goes when people take an MAOI when smoking DMT. The intense experience from smoking DMT freebase will last considerably longer, but the peak itself will be the same. However, it may feel more intense due to the longer duration.

Again, that is just my best guess. Please do not take what I am saying as a fact.

 

[maranello551]

I could certainly be wrong, but I always assumed the MAOI dosage simply needed to be high enough to allow the DMT to be orally active. Additional MAOI might lengthen the duration of the trip, but it shouldn't intensify it by any noteworthy amount. It is a higher DMT dosage that will cause a more intense trip. The DMT is what is making you trip. The MAOI is just what allows oral activity. And when i say intense, I mean so in every possible regard... more visuals, greater body load, etc.

Same goes when people take an MAOI when smoking DMT. The intense experience from smoking DMT freebase will last considerably longer, but the peak itself will be the same. However, it may feel more intense due to the longer duration.

Again, that is just my best guess. Please do not take what I am saying as a fact.

I've indeed heard that to be the case with rue or harmine/harmaline isolates, however, when it comes to caapi, I hear that once can dose high enough on caapi vine alone to reach visionary states and that thusly people in the amazon etc. take much higher doses of vine (2-3 times what is needed for MAO-inhibition) and add less DMT than people "in the west".

I hear that high doses of caapi tea are healing, while I seldom if ever have heard this of high doses of rue, so I'm wondering how these high caapi/low dmt doses differ from the low caapi amounts/high dmt doses.

Jungle aya/anahuasca vs. Western Oral DMT

What do you guys think? Is it just duration?

Would 50g caapi with dmt just last longer than 150g caapi with dmt or would it be differen tin other ways?

Swim's had 2 sessions with 20g ACRB + 2.8 rue which was ++++ for about 4 hours
and 1 session with ~17g ACRB + 3.4-4g rue which lasted only about 1-2 hours at a ++ or +++ so perhaps MAOI dose doesn't affect duration alone?

 

[universecannon]

Well, harmalas are very psychedelic on their own at high doses (people have written about this extensively here). The only way to know what the difference is like is to try it.

And yes the amount of harmalas/caapi/rue definitely continues to effect the DMT aspect and overall intensity/duration of the experience even as it passes the point where it starts to activate the DMT. 160g of vine with 3g mimosa is going to be completely different than 80g vine with 3g mimosa.

And 200-400mg of DMT for pharma is a very high amount, generally speaking. When people need that much just to get good effects I'm inclined to think that their dosage of harmalas is far too low. When you take a psychedelic dose of harmalas with your DMT there is a huge difference...But that's not to say a predominantly oral DMT experience doesn't have its merits

 

[Poads]

I've only taken rue, so I'm not one to talk about caapi.

Maranello, don't take this the wrong way, but you appear to have many questions. How about trying to experiment for yourself rather than asking people on the Nexus? Your personal experiences will give you much better answers than we can provide. Every person is a unique individual, and their experiences with psychedelics will reflect that.

I suggest trying various dosages yourself and see what works for you personally. The people on the Nexus can't teach you anything as well as a first-hand experience can. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but what you're asking would most likely be better answered through one's own work and efforts rather than by asking people on a forum.

 

[maranello551]

I've only taken rue, so I'm not one to talk about caapi.

Maranello, don't take this the wrong way, but you appear to have many questions. How about trying to experiment for yourself rather than asking people on the Nexus? Your personal experiences will give you much better answers than we can provide. Every person is a unique individual, and their experiences with psychedelics will reflect that.

I suggest trying various dosages yourself and see what works for you personally. The people on the Nexus can't teach you anything as well as a first-hand experience can. I'm not trying to be rude or anything, but what you're asking would most likely be better answered through one's own work and efforts rather than by asking people on a forum.

Swim does try himself. About 1 experiment per week.

"And yes the amount of harmalas/caapi/rue definitely continues to effect the DMT aspect and overall intensity/duration of the experience even as it passes the point where it starts to activate the DMT. 160g of vine with 3g mimosa is going to be completely different than 80g vine with 3g mimosa."

All I need is a little insight on now that 160g caapi experience would be different from that 80g one, universecannon. Could you please explain a few differences to me? Swim is about to order some caapi but he would greatly apreciate a heads-up.

 

[Grizzly Adams]

I could certainly be wrong, but I have always assumed that the MAOI dosage simply needed to be high enough to allow the DMT to be orally active. Additional MAOI might lengthen the duration of the trip, but it shouldn't intensify it by any noteworthy amount. It is a higher DMT dosage that will cause a more intense trip. The DMT is what is making you trip. The MAOI just prevents the DMT from being broken down too quickly. And when I say intense, I mean so in every possible regard... more visuals, greater body load, etc.

Same goes when people take an MAOI when smoking DMT. The intense experience from smoking DMT freebase will last considerably longer, but the peak itself will be the same. However, it may feel more intense due to the longer duration.

Again, that is just my best guess. Please do not take what I am saying as a fact.

I assumed that same thing, seemed very logical to me, but I have been told, that I was wrong. I have not yet tried it, but they say Harmine and Harmaline are psychedelic by themselves, but I am sure that they DO NOT do what dimethyltryptamine does.

 

[cubeananda]

Just to chime in-

Assume, for instance, that you didn't have a brain or nervous system.

If you were to try to use DMT somehow it would be futile.

Point being that your whole system is highly relevant to dmt molcule on it's own.

Here is the scientific perspective on what harmalas do.

In addition to them being highly-psychoactive and quite psychedelic.

However, it's unnecessary to tell you that your logic is somewhat uninformed; if you approach experimenting and seeing for yourself in no time at all it will be (more) clear to you the relationship between harmalas and dmt in action.

 

[Jox]

Harmalas makes the trip very emotional, and for some reason difficult. The more harmalas the more difficult. But at the same time the more healing. The problem is that it may be scary and you may not do it again, which stops the healing process.

Grizzly Adams is very right, people here smoke DMT more than other forms of use, check my post My trips are the WORST than any of yours to see the dynamic I am talking about.

I work in high numbers pharma and it is very difficult, you need a sitter for sure, and about a month and a half to work out the meaning of the trip in your daily life. Yet the goal is to do it long term, and the difficulty of the trips changes and becomes .... Better if that is the way to say it...

High harmala low DMT
You will be in your body a lot and your mind will go crazy with thinking patterns, no much visuals, not clear.

High harmala high DMT
The same, but the visuals eill be clear and last for about 3 hours

Low harmala high DMT
Shorter trip, but visual

The first option is most difficult one, no ego death which is draining, your thinking mind doesn't get shut.

I will do first low harmala and high dmt, and build up to both high.



Best Jox

P.S.
As other say, do your extractions, have mg scale to know your #, and journal all, so you can see the dynamic over time.

 

[maranello551]

Harmalas makes the trip very emotional, and for some reason difficult. The more harmalas the more difficult. But at the same time the more healing. The problem is that it may be scary and you may not do it again, which stops the healing process.

Grizzly Adams is very right, people here smoke DMT more than other forms of use, check my post My trips are the WORST than any of yours to see the dynamic I am talking about.

I work in high numbers pharma and it is very difficult, you need a sitter for sure, and about a month and a half to work out the meaning of the trip in your daily life. Yet the goal is to do it long term, and the difficulty of the trips changes and becomes .... Better if that is the way to say it...

High harmala low DMT
You will be in your body a lot and your mind will go crazy with thinking patterns, no much visuals, not clear.

High harmala high DMT
The same, but the visuals eill be clear and last for about 3 hours

Low harmala high DMT
Shorter trip, but visual

The first option is most difficult one, no ego death which is draining, your thinking mind doesn't get shut.

I will do first low harmala and high dmt, and build up to both high.



Best Jox

P.S.
As other say, do your extractions, have mg scale to know your #, and journal all, so you can see the dynamic over time.

You do pharma hm? So what MAOI do you use with your DMT? Do you use extracted harmalas as well or use caapi/rue?
What differences do you notice between maois when taken with extracted dmt?

 

[Jox]

I used to extract out of caapi, and about a year and half ago I switched to rue. But when I think back, I did the extractions washing it with water, as by wiki, in the recipe it doesn't talk about the Pka, so I was washing out harmaline, it turns out.


Me amd my husband saw some difference, but not much, and by now I kind of forgot... I think that caapi lasts longer, And maybe the visuals were smoother, but the trips change over time.... So I am kind of speculating.... The only way for me to tell is to do caapi now.

People say that rue is stronger than caapi, but didn't see much of that. There are many posts on this subject, read them, but they are confusing. Just use what you have. We work with higher numbers than most people though.

I am pretty happy with rue,,especially with the price so I don't think I will go back to caapi.

Extract what you have at hand, and if you don't have any, get what your buged permits. If you need help extracting either one I can give you my take, it is pretty easy.


But more important than caapi or rue, is that the trips are very heavy and difficult, this is more of concern...
Best
Jox

 

[maranello551]

I used to extract out of caapi, and about a year and half ago I switched to rue. But when I think back, I did the extractions washing it with water, as by wiki, in the recipe it doesn't talk about the Pka, so I was washing out harmaline, it turns out.


Me amd my husband saw some difference, but not much, and by now I kind of forgot... I think that caapi lasts longer, And maybe the visuals were smoother, but the trips change over time.... So I am kind of speculating.... The only way for me to tell is to do caapi now.

People say that rue is stronger than caapi, but didn't see much of that. There are many posts on this subject, read them, but they are confusing. Just use what you have. We work with higher numbers than most people though.

I am pretty happy with rue,,especially with the price so I don't think I will go back to caapi.

Extract what you have at hand, and if you don't have any, get what your buged permits. If you need help extracting either one I can give you my take, it is pretty easy.


But more important than caapi or rue, is that the trips are very heavy and difficult, this is more of concern...
Best
Jox

I work with fairly high numbers myself so thank you for taking the time to help me out. It might be just what I need.

Fairly new to ayahuasca/pharmahuasca. I have had 6 sessions in total with anahuasca (1 failed experience with mimosa brew, 2/5 strong experiences with acacia brew) using syrian rue (powdered) as the maoi each time.

I attempted a manske extraction on 4oz of rue but only got 500mg of (I would say) inactive "alkaloids" so I'm not sure what is going on...

I have about 15 experiences in combining rue with mushrooms also.

Rue is great, but it does occasionally feel toxic for some reason. Perhaps if I got the extraction down right this would no longer be the case, but I heard that aya/pharma with extracted alkaloids doesn't last as long..is this true? Or is it simply that one must take more of the extract?

I'm not sure how different rue extract is from caapi extract but I hear so many different opinions on whether rue is similar to caapi or different. Some say caapi synergies better with dmt, others can't tell the difference. It's very confusing for me.

Since I have quite a bit more experience with psilocybin than I do with dmt, I was thinking of buying some caapi 33x resin and taking it as an maoi for mushrooms and comparing it to my rue/mushroom experiences. Is this wise?

Thanks for all the help.

 

[AcaciaConfusedYah]

I've found that the more effort I put into cleaning my harmala extracts, the less "toxic" it feels - in fact, it doesn't feel toxic at all, to me. Which extraction tek did you use?

I'm also feeling a little curious. I have seen you ask about Amanita and harmalas.... IF you could have an Ideal starting dose, where would you start? Msybe 50mg harmala to about 1 cap of amanita?

 

[maranello551]

I've found that the more effort I put into cleaning my harmala extracts, the less "toxic" it feels - in fact, it doesn't feel toxic at all, to me. Which extraction tek did you use?

I'm also feeling a little curious. I have seen you ask about Amanita and harmalas.... IF you could have an Ideal starting dose, where would you start? Msybe 50mg harmala to about 1 cap of amanita?

Well I eat like 4g of ground up seeds and it feels a little toxic. I'm sure this wouldn't be the case with nay active extracted alkaloids.

In reference to the Amanitas, I only ordered one batch of 2oz from REMOVED and they were all brown and old and slightly soggy with tiny bugs in them D:<

I dried them for a little near a space heater and eate some numerous times at different doses from 1g up to 10g or so at once. I never got a single effect from them.

I would like to try those REMOVED as I hear 5g of their "A^2 amanitas" is enough for "shamanic" effect.

SWIM would first try to get effects off those alone before going on to seeking psilocybe synergy, harmala synergy, and if both turn out well, psilohuasca synergy or aya/pharmahuasca synergy (I hear a small amount of amanita hugely boosts aya/pharma and I'm hoping the same might be the case when it comes to psilohuasca).

 

[Poads]

Wait, you eat the rue seeds??? That's gotta be brutal on your stomach. Try making a tea instead. The 4g amount you said earlier is fine.

Also you might want to avoid listing your sources, the mods tend to frown upon that.

 

[maranello551]

He grinds up the seeds, takes a mouthful of water, pours in the seeds, and swallows. No nausea, but when swim takes mushrooms with the rue, his facial skin gets redder and he feels like his blood pressure is probably rising to dangerous levels..

The idea of tea made from rue makes swim not want to try that since eating the rue has proved to be fine so far besides these strange hunches of high blood pressure and an occasional strange feeling in his "brain"...I dismissed the brain feeling as psychological as nothing bad has ever resulted and swim fasts for 7 hours before his journeys

 

[Jox]

Actually I plan to do harmala + mushrooms! but this side effect you mention doesn't sound good! Is it with amanita or regular psylocibe?

Your rue extraction went wrong. First time always work on smal quantity. Good luck to your next extraction.

You may swim if you feel the need, but you can't source, they may delete entire thread, you better edit it out, but thank you for the reference though. Lol.

Best
jox

 

[maranello551]

Actually I plan to do harmala + mushrooms! but this side effect you mention doesn't sound good! Is it with amanita or regular psylocibe?

Your rue extraction went wrong. First time always work on smal quantity. Good luck to your next extraction.

You may swim if you feel the need, but you can't source, they may delete entire thread, you better edit it out, but thank you for the reference though. Lol.

Best
jox

Rue with mushrooms (psilocybe) is epic. I've only felt the discomfort when taking the rue alone with no mushrooms (achey arm, strange head feeling) but I did feel a raised blood pressure type feeling when taking it with mushrooms. I do recommend taking your regular mushroom dose with 2-4g of rue. It's like a mushroom trip on mushrooms.