Harmalas low–moderate doses for anxiety/rumination – what’s your experience?

[Space88]

Hi, I’ve been dealing with chronic generalized anxiety and constant rumination for a long time, and it’s been really hard to get out of that loop.
I recently came off vortioxetine (it actually made things worse for me), and I’ve been looking into harmalas as something that might help.

I’m curious which form people found most helpful for this kind of issue – Syrian rue, Caapi, full-spectrum extracts, or isolated compounds like harmine/harmaline/THH?
I can legally access most of these where I live (seeds, extracts, isolates, etc.), so I’m trying to figure out what might be a good starting point.

I’ve been considering trying a Peganum harmala 10:1 extract, but not sure if that’s a good idea or if something else would make more sense.

Thanks a lot for any insights!

 

[blig-blug]

I recently came off vortioxetine

How recently? I'm seeing vortioxetine has an elimination half life of 66 hours. You should wait a minimum of 6 half lives before trying MAOIs, that is 396 hours = 16.5 days. Be very careful because taking MAOIs with SSRIs still in your body is dangerous and can be lethal.

I’m curious which form people found most helpful for this kind of issue – Syrian rue, Caapi, full-spectrum extracts, or isolated compounds like harmine/harmaline/THH?

I have never used it explicitly for that in a chronic manner, so other people will have better info on that, but anecdotally I do experience an anxiolytic effect with harmala alkaloids extracted from rue when I take them for pharmahuasca, before taking DMT. I would say pure alkaloids are likely to be more convenient for daily dosing, but some people use rue seeds or teas. A caapi brew is not likely to be the most convenient.

I’ve been considering trying a Peganum harmala 10:1 extract, but not sure if that’s a good idea or if something else would make more sense.

Bear in mind that commercially available extracts are known to be inconsistent in their alkaloid content. It's best to make your own, or just eat rue seeds or drink a tea. Pure alkaloids would be preferable to a commercially available extract, too.

 

[Transform]

Thread '[Harmalas] MAOI Drug Interaction Disclaimer'

Jun 12, 2016

WARNING: There are very dangerous interactions between any MAOIs (including harmalas) and many commonly used recreational drugs and medications, including SSRI medications (such as prozac) and stimulants (such as MDMA and other amphetamines) as well as many others. If you're taking SSRI's, do not consume MAOIs!! Do not mix stimulants with MAOIs either! Mixing stimulants or medications with MAOIs can lead to Hypertensive Crisis, Serotonin Syndrome, and even death. For a more complete list of pharmaceuticals and substances that should NEVER be taken when...

• dreamer042
• Replies: 9
• Forum: DMT Experience Reports

• 

Definitely make sure your system is clear before proceeding!

So, in my view, harmalas differ somewhat from contemporary pharmaceuticals in that you'll get most out of them by careful exploration on both your own terms and the terms of the plant medicine, which will become abundantly clear should you choose to go deeper.

There is something of a parallel with SSRIs in that the benefits will accrue over a period of time - harmalas alone aren't a "one hit and you're fixed" kind of thing, either - ime, they require a level of sustained commitment, and this is where we can see the important divergence from things like antidepressants.

Whereas conventional psychopharmaceuticals serve to dull down some aspects of self-awareness, meditation with harmalas has the potential to get you right into the heart of the matter, where you'll have the opportunity to begin unravelling the Gordian knot of consciousness (or something).

But (without wanting to sound any more pretentious than I already do), it's very much a matter of getting out as much as you put into it.

Best of luck on your journey into self-acceptance, and god(dess)speed…

 

[Space88]

How recently? I'm seeing vortioxetine has an elimination half life of 66 hours. You should wait a minimum of 6 half lives before trying MAOIs, that is 396 hours = 16.5 days. Be very careful because taking MAOIs with SSRIs still in your body is dangerous and can be lethal.


I have never used it explicitly for that in a chronic manner, so other people will have better info on that, but anecdotally I do experience an anxiolytic effect with harmala alkaloids extracted from rue when I take them for pharmahuasca, before taking DMT. I would say pure alkaloids are likely to be more convenient for daily dosing, but some people use rue seeds or teas. A caapi brew is not likely to be the most convenient.


Bear in mind that commercially available extracts are known to be inconsistent in their alkaloid content. It's best to make your own, or just eat rue seeds or drink a tea. Pure alkaloids would be preferable to a commercially available extract, too.

It’s been a bit over a week since I stopped, so I’m trying to be careful, don’t want to mess around with MAOI + SSRI overlap.

The anxiolytic effect you mentioned is exactly what I’m hoping for, more on the subtle/calming side rather than going full pharmahuasca.

Pure alkaloids do sound appealing in terms of consistency, but they’re expensive for daily use. [Mod edit: No discussion of prices]

I was looking at a 10:1 Peganum harmala extract, but the one available to me is listed at around 0.65–0.68% alkaloids, which seems quite low. From what I’ve read, with lower-potency extracts some people end up needing higher amounts (like 1gram), hich doesn’t seem very cost-effective.

So at this point seeds are starting to look like the most practical option.

When you’ve taken harmalas on their own, did you notice much difference vs combining them with DMT, or is the baseline effect somewhat similar?

 

[Space88]

Thread '[Harmalas] MAOI Drug Interaction Disclaimer'

Jun 12, 2016

WARNING: There are very dangerous interactions between any MAOIs (including harmalas) and many commonly used recreational drugs and medications, including SSRI medications (such as prozac) and stimulants (such as MDMA and other amphetamines) as well as many others. If you're taking SSRI's, do not consume MAOIs!! Do not mix stimulants with MAOIs either! Mixing stimulants or medications with MAOIs can lead to Hypertensive Crisis, Serotonin Syndrome, and even death. For a more complete list of pharmaceuticals and substances that should NEVER be taken when...

• dreamer042
• Replies: 9
• Forum: DMT Experience Reports

• 

Definitely make sure your system is clear before proceeding!

So, in my view, harmalas differ somewhat from contemporary pharmaceuticals in that you'll get most out of them by careful exploration on both your own terms and the terms of the plant medicine, which will become abundantly clear should you choose to go deeper.

There is something of a parallel with SSRIs in that the benefits will accrue over a period of time - harmalas alone aren't a "one hit and you're fixed" kind of thing, either - ime, they require a level of sustained commitment, and this is where we can see the important divergence from things like antidepressants.

Whereas conventional psychopharmaceuticals serve to dull down some aspects of self-awareness, meditation with harmalas has the potential to get you right into the heart of the matter, where you'll have the opportunity to begin unravelling the Gordian knot of consciousness (or something).

But (without wanting to sound any more pretentious than I already do), it's very much a matter of getting out as much as you put into it.

Best of luck on your journey into self-acceptance, and god(dess)speed…

I think that’s kind of what I’m hoping for too... something that’s not just numbing things but actually lets you engage with what’s going on underneath.

At the same time I’m trying to keep my expectations realistic. Even just getting a bit of relief from the constant looping would already help a lot!

Did you personally find that the effects on anxiety/rumination built up over time with repeated use, or is it more situational depending on how/when you take it?

 

[The Sofa Traveler]

Pure alkaloids do sound appealing in terms of consistency, but they’re expensive for daily use.

Just my 2 cents on this : if you extract alkaloids yourself it's rather cheap since seeds are cheap in most of the countries. Most of the extraction teks are also kitchen-friendly (you could just use citric acid or vinegar, sodium carbonate and water). It's anyway advised to extract yourself, alkaloids from the market are known to be inconsistent.

 

[blig-blug]

When you’ve taken harmalas on their own, did you notice much difference vs combining them with DMT, or is the baseline effect somewhat similar?

The experience is very different with and without DMT. But I usually take the harmalas first and the DMT later, so I always experience only the harmalas for a while when taking pharmahuasca.

 

[Transform]

10:1 Peganum harmala extract, but the one available to me is listed at around 0.65–0.68% alkaloids, which seems quite low.

That is less than what you get in the seeds themselves! Which just goes to show "extract" doesn't mean you'll be getting the compounds you actually want. Seeds typically run at a good 5-7% alkaloid content, and their extraction and usage is fairly simple, requiring little if anything in the way of special equipment or materials.

I think that’s kind of what I’m hoping for too... something that’s not just numbing things but actually lets you engage with what’s going on underneath.

At the same time I’m trying to keep my expectations realistic. Even just getting a bit of relief from the constant looping would already help a lot!

Did you personally find that the effects on anxiety/rumination built up over time with repeated use, or is it more situational depending on how/when you take it?

I guess the only real answer will come when you're ready to engage with the plant itself. It gets quite holistic, and there's a whole range of discussions right here on the forum relating to the various aspects of it, including several other ongoing ones.

Considering this is as much a WIP for myself, I'm kind of asking myself similar questions to yours every time, and there's no real way of establishing a control case for something so personal. Also, some people are far better at keeping a diary than I

One of the things I'm trying to say is that there's every possibility your response will differ from mine, depending on your particular circumstances - diet, exercise, support networks, you name it. The old 'YMMV', if you will. And while I can't say I've entirely cracked the social anxiety nut - as I've grown older that's become less of a concern for me anyhow - my overall degree of anxiety seems to have reduced to a manageable level. I'd like to think that my various experiences with Syrian rue have helped with this - they've certainly led me into a few stressful scenarioes that turned out to be preposterous dream-vision sequences with some kind of lesson behind them, the main example that springs to mind being that breathing cadence and facial expression have a surprisingly large effect on the way one perceives reality. I can't exclude the possibility that age and maturity have made own their contribution to any progress here, however - but the lessons from the rue very much are of the rue itself.

Maybe other techniques would bring a similar benefit - charitable volunteering, meditation, bodywork like yoga or qigong, or even extreme sports, but I guess it appears you've been drawn to this path somehow. With your nearly nine years of Nexus presence, I'm guessing you have some kind of prior experience with psychedelics, perhaps? Rue is, or can be, similar but different.

The other point I want to make clear is that I'm sharing anecdotal experience and cannot give medical advice. There's always a possibility that your subjective condition may remain the same, or worsen - however temporarily, as much as it may or may not improve. Whichever way it goes, I've found writing about it here at the Nexus to be as valuable a part of the process as the rest of it.

I hope this answer makes sense and proves to be useful!