fourthripley
Rising Star
A polyfill plug in a funnel seems fast and effective.A small portion of stuff filtered this way was put (painfully slowly) through a coffee filter leaving really minimal residue.
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Harmine Crystals from Syrian Rue
- Thread starter acolon_5
- Start date
fourthripley
Rising Star
A polyfill plug in a funnel seems fast and effective.A small portion of stuff filtered this way was put (painfully slowly) through a coffee filter leaving really minimal residue.
69ron
Esteemed member
A cheap round cotton ball, like those sold at drug stores, put into a funnel works really good as a pre-filter. One pass through cotton balls, using vacuum, and the liquid can then usually be vacuum filtered through standard filter papers.
As far as filter paper go, SWIM highly recommends glass microfiber filter paper for tough jobs, not the normal kind. Glass microfiber filter papers cost more but they filter much faster and take a lot longer to clog compared with normal papers. They can really take abuse. One glass microfiber paper can last as long as about 10 normal ones before getting clogged.
I filter with normal cheap filter paper if it can take it. But if el-cheapo clogs after a few minutes, I immediately switch to using glass microfiber filter papers. Believe me, they can save you a ton of time and work and are worth the extra price.
Another great help is placing a layer of diatomaceous earth on top of the filter paper. This can help prevent the filter from clogging. It’s often used in swimming pool filtration systems and can be bought in food grade form.
As far as filter paper go, SWIM highly recommends glass microfiber filter paper for tough jobs, not the normal kind. Glass microfiber filter papers cost more but they filter much faster and take a lot longer to clog compared with normal papers. They can really take abuse. One glass microfiber paper can last as long as about 10 normal ones before getting clogged.
I filter with normal cheap filter paper if it can take it. But if el-cheapo clogs after a few minutes, I immediately switch to using glass microfiber filter papers. Believe me, they can save you a ton of time and work and are worth the extra price.
Another great help is placing a layer of diatomaceous earth on top of the filter paper. This can help prevent the filter from clogging. It’s often used in swimming pool filtration systems and can be bought in food grade form.
I am combining stickies about Harmine Extraction from Syrian Rue
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: EASY Harmaloid Freebase TEK
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Yo,
It's a shame to read aboot so many people ingesting rue (along with all its toxicity) straight up, or as a tea, when there's a simple procedure to obtain reasonably pure harmaloids in freebase form, which can then be gelcapped for pharmahuasca, or smoked prior to Dimitri for "fumahuasca."
Here's how:
1. Perform a basic Manske/Hassenfratz NaCl precipitation according to your preferred method (if you already have an establish method for this, skip to step number eight). IMO, the best way to do this is as follows: soak ~100g seeds overnite in a blender (you can add vine gar, which the standard tek calls for, but gar is stinky, hard on the lungs, and IMO unnecessary as the alkaloids are readily soluble in H20 anyway. But either way, soak the seeds then blend 'em, or grind 'em in a burr grinder, or use a mortar and pestle if you're hard core.
2. Boil ground or blended seeds ~1/2 hr. Strain thru t-shirt or other cloth, squeeze out as much liquid as possible, and boil again, strain again, and combine the two aqueous extracts. Just boiling 2X for 1/2 hr seems to get most of the alks.
3. Pre-mix 1/2 liter of saturated NaCl soln by adding NON-IODIZED NaCl to boiling H20 until it won't dissolve any more. Let the water cool, and filter out the salt that precips.
4. Reduce the volume of your combined aqueous extracts to ~1/2 liter, and dissolve another 23 grams of NaCl into the tea as well, just for good measure.
5. Combine the 1/2 liter of seed tea with the 1/2 liter of saturated NaCl soln in a quart masonic jar. Stick it in the fridge overnite.
6. Rather than filtering out all the liquid, which is a pain in the ass at this point cuz of all the filter-clogging oils, simply siphon or suck off the liquid from the top using syringe, turkey baster, or whatever. Then dump out the last little bit into a coffee filter in a funnel (or vaccum filter if you have one). The filter can be bunched up and moved around in the funnel to aid in getting the liquid to pass through.
7. Redissolve the resulting red gooey mush in ~1/2 liter of HOT distilled H20 (my tap water here has some solids which would precip out in the next phase, so I recommend distilled). Pass this liquid thru another coffee filter so as to remove some of the oils that will otherwise gum up the next phase.
(OPTIONAL: Repeat the NaCl precipitation one more time for extra purity. The NaCl precipitation seems to be the phase that removes the toxic uterotonic alkaloids such as viscine. Once, while trying to be a lazy ass, the NaCl phase was skipped altogether and an ammonia precip was performed directly on the original tea - the resulting extract worked fine on males, but the one female it was given to vomited excessively - this might have been a coincidence, but it might also have been due to the fact that these other alkaloids were precipitated along with the harmaloids. Regardless, the NaCl precip seems like a good thing to do at least once, possibly more.)
8. To the filtered aqueous harmaloid soln, add a small amt of ammonia. You will be able to see the alkaloids fall out of the soln, which goes from dark and yucky looking to bright yellow as the 'loids become visible.
9. Let the soln settle, it takes several hours for the alkaloids to fall to the bottom, leaving a dark liquid on top. Once again, suck off the black liquid from the top and discard it, then filter the last little bit of liquid out of the alkaloids.
You now have crude harmine & harmaline freebase, with perhaps a touch of other alkaloids, and still some plant oils and whatnot. According to Dale Pendell in Pharmako-Gnosis, he extracted some harmaloids using multiple NaCl precips and sent it to Shulgin for gc/ms analysis, which revealed a ratio of roughly 2:1 harmine:harmaline, though this ratio may vary with season, species, environmental conditions, etc. Plus harmaline tends to degrade into harmine, so handling and storage are also factors.
Two optional methods of cleaning this product further are:
1. Redissolve in aqueous soln (you will need to use a little acid, such as vine gar) and filter, then precip again with more ammonia. This is especially good for removing oils.
Or,
2. Place the alkaloids in a small container (I use a 30ml amber soln bottle), add roughly half the container's capacity in ammonia (~15ml in my case), and shake the hell out of it. Filter, and repeat until desired purity is achieved. You can tell how pure the harmaloids are by how dirty the ammonia is after washing - when it gets pretty clear, your 'loids are pretty clean.
Well, that's it. The resulting extract from this technique is EXTREMELY POTENT! USE CAUTION!
~50mg smoked is enough to double the length of a DMT blast (hypothetically, of course).
Oral doses of ~100 mg are probably sufficient to achieve facilitation via MAO inhibition, but you might wanna shoot closer to ~200mg to be safe. Purging is less likely with this extract than with straight up rue or rue brews, but it's still possible of course, due to the nature of the medicine itself.
Speaking of which, DO NOT mix harmaloids with psychoactives that increase the amount of serotonin active in the brain, like SSRI's (certain perscription psychoactives for depression or anxiety such as Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, Lexapro, et al.) or for up to 8 weeks after stopping the SSRI (at least in the case of Prozac, which lingers like a mofo... the others should be gone in 4-6 wks but better safe than sorry!) Too much serotonin can lead to serotonin syndrome, which can in turn lead to death from hyperthermia. Also avoid MDMA (ecstasy) which also increases 5ht amts in the synapse. Also avoid nasal decongestants, allergy medications, amphetamines, antihistamines, or anything else which can cause hypertension, or hypOtension, for that matter...
But as long as you're not on any of that toxic pharmaceutical crap, harmaloids are physically safe in normal dosages. Even the dietary restrictions so often spoken of (avoiding tyramine, etc.) seem unnecessary, those restrictions apply more to pharmaceutical MAOIs which destroy the enzyme, rather than just preoccupying it temporarily like the harmaloids do.
And of course, all of this is to be done only in a country where healing is legal.
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
Last edited by SyZyGyPSy on Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:46 am; edited 2 times in total
acolon_5
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:
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This is a nice looking tek!
I am DEFINITLEY going to try the ammonia purification stage...tired of my syrian rue goo from a normal NaCl precipitation.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject:
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I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results - let us know how it turns out!
Also, be sure to use adequate ventillation (or better yet, a vapor mask) when working with ammonia. Or if nothing else, at least hold your breath when pouring it! It not only reeks, it can have a cumulative damaging effect on one's breathing apparati. Protect your respiratory tract! And wear eye protection, since ammonia will blind you if it gets in your eyes.
And don't use just any old ammonia... Ace Hardware 10% janitorial strength is what you want.
That having been said, be safe & enjoy!
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
whatisthecure
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:09 am Post subject:
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could you explain what goes on chemically by adding the ammonia? i havent tried this yet, i just did a manske extraction to no avail
acolon_5
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject:
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Harmine Salt (whatever form it occurs naturally in the rue) to Harmine Free Base.
Like Harmine HCL to Harmine. Since Ammonia is a base, and 100% volitile it frees up the harmine molecule. Since harmine base is not soluable in water it crashes out.
Please note I know only a tad of chem, but I believe this is correct.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject:
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Yeah that's my understanding of it. Ammo, being a stronger base than harmaloids, pulls the acid away from them, leaving them in freebase form. Much better for smoking. Plus, by dissolving your harmaloid salts (along with any residual NaCl) in water, then precipitating w/ammo, the NaCl stays dissolved in the solution, thus any salt is removed by this step, leaving you with near-pure alkaloids. It always took SWIM at least half a gram of manske extracted crud to get the same effects as ~100mg of this stuff.
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
Coschi
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject:
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Looks good,
Any idea what pH you're aiming for?
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acolon_5
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject:
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Keep pouring small amounts of ammonia until no more hamine base crashes out, take a Ph reading, wait a few minutes, add a little more, and if no more crashes out your best Ph would be your first reading.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject:
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Yeah it doesn't take much at all. SWIM never bothers to check the pH, he just pours in a splash of ammo and watches all the alks fall out, sometimes he adds a spash more just to be sure but it never seems to make a difference. He's tried adding more after precip and filtering just to see, and nothing ever comes of it.
I think there's actually a way to separate the harmine from the harmaline using ammo... if you add it dropwise, one of 'em is supposed to fall out first, then the other one comes out if you raise the pH a little more. They can then be separated under a microscope cuz the needles look different, apparently. SWIM has never seen the point in this though, as it sounds like a lot of extra trouble and he actually prefers the synergy of the two...
Still, if anyone wants to go thru the trouble to find an optimal pH, I'd be glad to know... please inform me if you do!
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
Coschi
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject:
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Quote:
Harmaline and harmine were found to have pKa values of 9.55 +/- 0.04
suggests you'd be aiming for a pH of around 12-13.. that seems too high though just because everyone who has tried NaOH to freebase harmala alks has killed the majority of the alks due to driving the pH too high which is why people suggest ammonia
Quote:
Weak alkalis (soluble bases) like ammonia give a pH of 10-11 but strong alkalis (soluble bases) like sodium hydroxide give a pH of 13-14
Next time you do the extraction perhaps you could find your happy level and then measure pH and let us know
_________________
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:17 am Post subject:
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Yeah, I think needing to have your pH that much higher than your pka might only apply for trying to get alkaloids to migrate from one solution to another? Maybe since all you're doing is precipitation, all you need is a pH of ~9.6? A higher pH might only be necessary to force a majority of alkaloids across the barrier between layers or something...
Here's an excellent source on harmaloids: The Chemical Gazette
It just sez to add it dropwise until cloudy precipitate forms. SWIM hates breathing in ammonia, and is often too lazy to don his respirator, so he usually just holds his breath and splashes in a bit, then puts the lid on the jar and runs away. It always works fine. Leave it setting somewhere warm, btw; do not decant in fridge.
SWIM's aboot to do some alchemy on a kilo soon, but has no pH pen as he has heard bad things aboot them not being accurate and never really saw the need for one anyway. He will consider getting one and reporting back on the pH needed, if someone can recommend a good source for a cheap and RELIABLE pH-o-meter?
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
Coschi
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:29 am Post subject:
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hmm well the thing is as soon as you change an alks state it is willing to migrate to any layer present.. what i mean is that if you can get an alk to precipitate then you're at the same point as if you were to move it into another solvent.. you think?
pH pen's i've heard a range of comments, but straight litmus paper is fine for reporting pH values
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the_newcomer
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject:
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I love this site. Too bad I ingest an SNRI everyday otherwise I'd be trying this.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject:
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I'm honestly not sure about precipitation vs. migration... yeah, it would seem that they should be the same, but for some reason with MHRB it seems like the more you basify, the more goodies go into your NP (to an extent), whereas with harmaloids for instance you just hit a certain point where they all seem to fall out at once.
If it were really the case that "as soon as you change an alks state it is willing to migrate to any layer present," it seems like just one pull should get it all. This was my thought too at first, but now methinks perhaps layer migration is more a case of ions "battling for space," with a sort of osmotic "higher concentration moves to lower concentration" with respect to the ion gradient, where a stronger EM charge in one solution means more migration into the other as the greater the presence of ions, the more their charge "forces" the alkaloids across the barrier between layers. This is different than precipitation, I guess, in that the alkaloids are still -somewhat- soluble in both layers, whereas when precipping they just become not soluble at all any more. If this happened with Dimitri one could just basify an MHRB soup and let it set, then filter out semi-pure magick which could then be further purified... but this is not the case.
SWIM has pH papers... he sux at reading them but will give it a shot on his next transmutation and report back
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject:
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Newcomer, those selective reuptake inhibitors are some nasty shite. SWIM is convinced that we haven't yet begun to fathom the negative long-term side effects from those things... most FDA studies observe people for less than two years, but when those meds are prescribed it's usually with the intention of keeping someone on them for life!
Forgive me if I'm overstepping my bounds, I don't wanna tell anyone how to live their life. I just mean this as friendly advice from someone who has a good understanding of neuropharmacology & who has seen several close friends' lives ruined or severely damaged by reuptake inhibitors and other pharmaceutical black magick.
If they're working for you then by all means, follow what's right for you. But most people I've talked to who are on those things have said they felt like something wasn't right about it. Trust your feelings.
IMO, if USED PROPERLY in the right context, the combination of natural reversible MAOIs and methylated tryptamine alkaloids can heal you MUCH better than any SNRI (you'd have to be completely off of them first though, of course... Mescalito also comes to mind as a possible means of healing adrenal issues, since that's his pharmacological pathway... but not knowing the specifics of your situation it's hard to say anything really).
Reuptake inhibitors don't actually heal you at all, they just suppress symptoms while the root cause festers unattended. In fact they also suppress the very mechanisms by which we heal ourselves! It's a question of whether you want to take the difficult path of facing your inner demons and FIXING your problems, or whether you just want to sweep them under the rug, so to speak.
Please understand this is only my opinion. Again I mean no offense or condemnation against you personally, I just have something of a personal grudge against those types of medication cuz of what I've seen 'em do to people, and am simply trying to make sure you've considered all angles of your scenario.
Much love & light,
SyZ
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
acolon_5
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject:
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I'm with you 100% SyZyGyPSy....SSRI's and SNRI's are nasty, nasty psychoactives. I've seen people with only minor depression become violent and suicidal after taking the RI's for only two months. Not to mention after their episode the months and months it took them to get over the w/d's when they stopped taking these things. RI's ARE EVIL!
SSRI/SNRI's actually shrink the receptor sites for 5-HT thus creating a whole new set of probelms.
Whereas my understanding is that MAOI+MTrypts will actually help the receptor sites bind better with 5-HT for weeks after use. There was a study they did on Aya and it's pharmacological effects on the brain. It was found to be a much better anti-depressant than any of the current western meds.
This is only what I have observed and read. I am not a Dr or even pretend to play one on TV.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:39 am Post subject:
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You may not be a doctor but sadly it sounds like you have a better understanding of the human 5ht system than most psychiatrists.
Yes, RIs, while masking the symptoms of depression, not only make it worse in real life by keeping you from dealing with the root cause, they also make it worse pharmacologically by promoting what's called downregulation of receptor sites. Whereas, as you pointed out, ayahuasca was shown to increase the # of receptor sites for 5ht. Alcoholism and depression are associated with a decreased # of receptor sites, so this is a proposed mechanism of action for aya's antidepressive and antiaddictive effects.
It's as if there's a struggle between synthetick pharmaceutical death magick and organick jungle life magick. I am a scientist by nature but that's the best fit model as far as I can tell.
I had a friend who started taking medication for migraines. It made her drowsy, so they gave her a stimulant. Then she couldn't sleep, so they gave her sleeping pills. No studies have ever been done on the effects of combining meds like this, but they do it all the time. Before long the side effects had led to depression, anxiety, etc (of course, since she was now a walking medicine cabinet of toxic garbage). She called me one night to "say goodbye." She had overdosed on zoloft and depakote. I had to drive over there to find this out, at which point I had to call an ambulance and take her to the hospital to get her stomach pumped.
I helped a (now ex-) girlfriend get off zoloft and lexapro. I have seen firsthand the addictive grasp these demons (again, best fit model) exert on those unfortunate enough to trust their health and sanity to the care of so called medical professionals these daze. Not to diss on all doctors or anything, they've got a tough job, but treating people like broken monkey robots is no way to heal them.
As an ex heroin junkie, I know all about addiction . Life has so much more to offer when you aren't tied to a particular form of matter to get through your day-to-day life. Other material manifestations (in the form of 5ht receptor agonist molecules such as certain methylated tryptamines) helped show me this.
My best wishes to anyone caught in the web of pharmaceutical mumbo jumbo (it's somewhere we've all been, probly, in some way ). Again I mean nothing against anyone personally and only wish to help... any advice or anything else I can offer to anyone who wishes to know more, I will be glad to provide.
BTW I believe the reference for the study acolon_5 is referring to is "A study of the effects of ayahuasca in healthy volunteers" or something very similar-sounding. Pretty sure Strassman and Dennis McKenna were involved... thank the Source for those awesome dudes!
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
oarguello
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: How long after you smoke it?
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So how long after you smoke your ~50mg of freebase Rue extracts do you start to smoke your DMT?
Just to give you an idea....Drinking the tea version of RUE ( using 5 grams of syrian rue) on an empty stomach, SWIM smokes DMT about 30-40 minutes after consumption. Which is an average amount of time from what i read but higher amount than average.
Thanks for your input
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:41 am Post subject:
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When smoking one's harmaloids it doesn't seem to take that long. SWIM just smokes 'till he feels it, then maybe gets up and pisses or something and then sits back down and blasts off. This seems to turn a ~5 minute experience into a ~23 minute experience that SWIM finds much easier to work with... more like being shot out of a cannon with a parachute strapped on instead of a bungee cord, if that analogy makes any sense.
There might be other ways of doing it to achieve different effects... perhaps waiting longer would change things? It might allow for a buildup of 5ht, dopamine, and other neuroxmitterz that would alter the quality of the experience? Worth experimenting, perhaps...
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
oarguello
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject:
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SyZyGyPSy wrote:
There might be other ways of doing it to achieve different effects... perhaps waiting longer would change things? It might allow for a buildup of 5ht, dopamine, and other neuroxmitterz that would alter the quality of the experience? Worth experimenting, perhaps...
Well I know this is true for the tea! I use to wait 10-20 minutes after drinking the tea and SWIM's trip would go to about 20 minutes. I would wait longer about 40 minutes and trip would last about 40 minutes to an hour, with slow declining residual effects lasting another hour.
And definitely more managable than DMT without any Rue. I relate it to watching a movie. Regular DMT is like watching a movie in 20X fast forward. Where with Rue its starts at maybe 10X fast forward and slows to5x, 2x, then normal speed. But you still get to see the whole movie
....Speaking of movies i just saw the simpsons movie....seemed very suspicious that Homer drank Ayahuasca? His trip looked somewhat familiar...although i never breathed fire. LOL.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:21 am Post subject:
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Hmmm, thanks for the input. I'll have to have SWIM wait longer after smoking harmaloids next time and see what happens.
SWIM has previously smoked DMT well into his pharmahuasca trips on a few occasions, and thought it seemed to last aboot as long (with "it" referring to the "flash," not the afterglow which lasts for some time after fumahuasca and is obviously imperceptible while on pharmahuasca). For instance, smoking D right after smoking 50mg harmaloids kept him gone for about 3 songs from Entheogenic (~23 min at just under 8 min/song). Smoking D at Tool whilst on pharmahuasca and mushrooms also lasted for about 3-4 songs... unless he missed a few which is possible but yeah this is totally unscientific methodology so I'll take your word over SWIM's
_________________
"It's the stuff that dreams are made of." - Neek
The Traveler
Site Admin
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:38 am Post subject:
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Since this topic is as popular as the other rue extraction tek , I'm making this one a sticky as well.
Kind regards,
The Traveler
_________________
Life is a ride, like days in a train. Cities rush by, like ghosts in the night
The rhythm of wheels, time fades away. Stations of a journey, destination unknown
EZ4U2Shoot
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject:
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QUESTION:
What are the dietary concerns when smoking this?
I understand that if you plan to ingest MAOI containing plants or teas then there are some safety guidelines one should follow concerning diet. It seems (from what I've read and seem to understand) that it is suggested that you alter your diet for about a week before you are going to do this and then not eat anything at all on the day.
My sister is in the medical field and she stresses greatly that MAOI's are DANGEROUS. I understand that she is primarily refering to those that are prescribed for depression but there is obviously some concern about natural plant based as well.
Would someone please clarify specifically what dietary concerns and requirements to follow to maintain safety for both ingesting and smoking this?
Garulfo
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject:
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I have no regular experience but I can say that a friend who is under SSRI ingested a bit of syrian rue extract just to test how it would works and had absolutly no adverse reaction. No special diet were done except not eating few hours before. However this might be a matter of dose as my friend just gave it a test. If experienced people says it is something to avoid... better be safe than sorry.
The Traveler
Site Admin
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:09 am Post subject:
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Check this thread about more MAOI info and look for my post with the link in it to see what is dangerous to eat/drink and what not.
_________________
Life is a ride, like days in a train. Cities rush by, like ghosts in the night
The rhythm of wheels, time fades away. Stations of a journey, destination unknown
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject:
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There's a few things to consider with regards to MAOI safety.
The first is medication. Nasal decongestands and allergy medications can have adverse reactions, but probably only if taken within a few hours of taking harmaloids.
SWIM once gave a VERY LARGE dose of harmaloids to a person who had taken an allergy pill earlier that day with no negative results... but this is not conclusive.
The main thing to avoid is SSRIs or anything else that increases the amount of serotonin in the brain (like MDMA!!!). This is more hypothetical than anything and may not be an issue with a singe dose of harmaloids, but you REALLY wanna use caution here cuz if you end up with too much 5ht in yer brane then you gets what's called serotonin syndrome, which is usually only unpleasant for a few hours but in extreme cases can cause DEATH by hyperthermia (sudden spike in body temp).
And what really sux is that things like prozac can take up to 8 weeks of being off it before you return to baseline
So use extreme caution when SSRI type stuff is involved, better safe than sorry!
As for foods it doesn't seem to be too big a deal. The diet cautions are mainly for irreversible maois that destroy the enzyme. Tests have been done with tyramine and reversible pharmaceutical maois like moclobemide and determined there was little risk involved, as the mao enzyme seems to selectively prefer to metabolize tyramine first, and harmaloids second... or so the theory goes, assuming harmaloids are like moclobemide. But again this is only speculation so exercise caution!
The diet mentioned in The Traveler's link sounds about right. SWIM normally tells people (after making sure they're not on SSRIs) to only eat FRESH foods the day of the ceremony, preferably only living things (fruits n' veggies, etc), and to avoid any solid food for at least 3-4 hrs prior, though a bannana or some carrot juice is usually ok up to an hour before if you're a wimp and can't go w/o food for a few hrs
It's really not too big a deal. The main thing is to avoid other meds. Also try to avoid processed foods for a few days before, just cuz the first thing this stuff does is find all the toxic evil in you and purge it. It's not that you -can't- eat bad all the way up to the day before, it's just that the first part of the ceremony will generally be easier for you if there's less for it to purge, that way the energy is feed up for it to go to work on your psyche instead of your body
Also it is SWIM's understanding that when smoking, it's really not a big deal what you eat. Although meds and booze are still an issue.
Just a few nights ago SWIM smoked a VERY SMALL amount of harmaloids, just enough to see if the smoke was blacklight responsive (sadly it's not, the 'loids have to be in salt form to flouresce apparently). Later that night he went out and had a beer, and it was fine, but then he took a sip of another kind of beer called Turbo Dog, and just that one sip made him almost black out for a few minutes, then he regained conscious just in time to run out the door and barf all over himself But this felt more like a bitch slap from the spirits, cuz SWIM shoulda known better...
Anyway, all risks aside, you're better off purifying yourself for other reasons as well. DMT is not something to be done on a whim. This is a ceremonial SACRAMENT, ok? A little preparation will have untold psychological and spiritual benefits, not to mention the health benefits that come from eating good for a few days. Sure we all mess up, and if you mess up on your diet it's not a big deal, but if you don't have the self control to eat decent foods for a day or two then what the hell are you doing messing around with DMT?
As for following restrictions afterward, you will find you are much more sensitive to the world around you. Your body will readily detect the chemical composition of things you ingest (this was the original function of the sense of "taste," before the tongue became merely another pleasure organ ). Listen to your body. SWIM knew after one sip that that beer was not for him. Foods are the same way. Your cells know... the purpose of pharmahuasca-type explorations is to re-establish brain-to-cell communication. Listen to your body.
If you truly want to experience healing, follow a spiritual dieta for at least two weeks after the ceremony (and at least a few days building up to it). If you're just looking for kicks, only the day of and perhaps the day after is really needed for safety purposes. But then if you're just looking for kicks why not just go shoot coke or something? (j/k... kind of )
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All post made by me are either fictional or just whispering thoughts of my mind. I do not endorse, condone or engage in illegal activities. If you think what I do is illegal then please relax: it's just fiction and not happening in real life. I mean: we talk about things like machine elves, hyperspace and dancing clowns, sjeez....don't take it for real.
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Attention All Shipping Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:02:23 AM
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What sort of yield of harmaloid freebase are you getting from 100g of Syrian Rue?
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DrParadox Posted: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:32:03 PM
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Attention All Shipping wrote:
What sort of yield of harmaloid freebase are you getting from 100g of Syrian Rue?
SWIM tried it and said he got 1%. How about SWIY?
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DrParadox Posted: Friday, February 29, 2008 4:25:14 PM
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Can other bases besides (stinky) ammonia be used?
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Entropymancer Posted: Friday, February 29, 2008 11:30:30 PM
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Harmine: pKa 7.70
Harmaline: pK 4.2
I don't see any reason why sodium carbonate wouldn't work. To get ~99% of the harmine as the freebase, you'll probably want to aim for pH ~10 (+/- 0.5). If you only want the harmaline, aim for pH ~ 6.5.
And let us know how it goes, since this is entirely theoretical.
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DrParadox Posted: Saturday, March 01, 2008 12:10:55 AM
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Yes, sodium carbonate is exactly what SWIM had in mind... I'll ask SWIM how it turns out and post here.
Thanks!
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:36:45 AM
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I'm interested to hear how the sodium carb thing goes... any hypothetical results yet?
SWIM sez you should get way more than 1% yield. He usually gets at least 4g from 100g seeds... could be your seeds are bunk, but more likely your tek is inefficient. Grind them to a powder, boil at least 3x in vine gar soln... you should get way more than 1% yield.
The problem I see with sodium carbonate is, correct me if I'm wrong, it doesn't evap, que no? The beauty of ammonia is that, while stinky, it evaps clean without leaving ANY residue. Still, I'd love to find a way to do it without smelling that crap...
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old Dead Head Posted: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:01:50 PM
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HEY SWIM is on Sereoquel and smokes spice regularly!!! What about that, and oh yea that other thing? you know FUN!!!! Seems to me if you get to serious you end up like Sasha and have to work for the DEA!!!! Just a thought!
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:22:48 PM
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Spice does not have any contraindicated interactions with other chemicals, that I know of. However, do not under any circumstances mix an MAOI (like harmaloids) with an SSRI (antidepressants like prozac, zoloft, lexapro, paxil, etc.) I'm not sure about seroquel, I don't think it has any SSRI properties to it, but check with a pharmacist first (just ask him if it's contraindicated for MAOIs). I wouldn't recommend it personally, but then I wouldn't recommend taking perscription zombie potions in the first place... that's just me tho.
Not sure what you mean aboot FUN, and Sasha, and the DEA... seems out of context, unless I'm missing something
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QC Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:55:09 AM
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Pure brilliance. I dreamt I used this tek last night. Thank you SyZyGyPSy!
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acolon_5 Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:42:39 AM
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Entropymancer wrote:
Harmine: pKa 7.70
Harmaline: pK 4.2
I don't see any reason why sodium carbonate wouldn't work. To get ~99% of the harmine as the freebase, you'll probably want to aim for pH ~10 (+/- 0.5). If you only want the harmaline, aim for pH ~ 6.5.
And let us know how it goes, since this is entirely theoretical.
Does this mean that one could precipitate out all the harmaline at 5.5-6.5 filter and then add more base to get mainly harmine???
That would be very cool.
"Just a few nights ago SWIM smoked a VERY SMALL amount of harmaloids, just enough to see if the smoke was blacklight responsive (sadly it's not, the 'loids have to be in salt form to flouresce apparently). "
No, but it does have to be wet! Dry salts and dry freebase harmaloids don't seem to flouresce at all, but adding a touch of water it shines! Couldn't tell you about the smoke from it though, hopefully all the alkaloids are being absorbed in your lungs.
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 6:06:14 PM
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Quote:
Dry salts and dry freebase harmaloids don't seem to flouresce at all, but adding a touch of water it shines
I think that's cuz the water forms a kind of hydroxide salt or something from it. Could be wrong about this but I think I remember reading about it somewhere as well, that the alks only flouresce in their salt form.
And yes, if one were to add ammonia dropwise to a harmaloid salt soln, the harmaline would fall out first, then the harmine. They could be separated in this way if one so desired. Though SWIM prefers the synergy of full spectrum plant spirit, this is of course a matter of opinion.
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 6:09:07 PM
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SWIM was originally thinking how cool it would be to have harmaloid smoke filling a blacklighted room during a music show or something. As indicated above, the smoke obviously doesn't flouresce. However, SWIM is now thinking perhaps a humidifier could be used to produce harmaloid salt water vapors, which could then fill a blacklighted room at a show and look really trippy cool perhaps...
He will aquire a humidifier and report back!
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acolon_5 Posted: Friday, April 18, 2008 8:04:01 PM
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SyZyGyPSy wrote:
SWIM was originally thinking how cool it would be to have harmaloid smoke filling a blacklighted room during a music show or something. As indicated above, the smoke obviously doesn't flouresce. However, SWIM is now thinking perhaps a humidifier could be used to produce harmaloid salt water vapors, which could then fill a blacklighted room at a show and look really trippy cool perhaps...
He will aquire a humidifier and report back!
Has SWIY tried smoking harmaloid salts? Maybe not quite a effictive or nice as freebase, but it might just SHINE!
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The Spice is vital for space travel
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:13:09 PM
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Problem is, the salts dissociate before the alkaloid vaporizeth. A vaporized alkaloid cannot exist in salt form, if I understand correctly.
There's still hope for the humidifier though...
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Attention All Shipping Posted: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:24:57 PM
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I may be being a bit dim but can you clarify something about this tek please:
"5. Combine the 1/2 liter of seed tea with the 1/2 liter of saturated NaCl soln in a quart masonic jar. Stick it in the fridge overnite.
6. Rather than filtering out all the liquid, which is a pain in the ass at this point cuz of all the filter-clogging oils, simply siphon or suck off the liquid from the top using syringe, turkey baster, or whatever. Then dump out the last little bit into a coffee filter in a funnel (or vaccum filter if you have one). The filter can be bunched up and moved around in the funnel to aid in getting the liquid to pass through.
7. Redissolve the resulting red gooey mush in ~1/2 liter of HOT distilled H20 (my tap water here has some solids which would precip out in the next phase, so I recommend distilled). Pass this liquid thru another coffee filter so as to remove some of the oils that will otherwise gum up the next phase."
(1) Is it the case that the liquid on the top is what is kept and just all solids/sludge redissolved in step 7? as I'm not getting any really clearly defined layers.
(2) What is done with the 1/2 litre of H2O in which the mush is redissolved in? Is this filtered again and then added to the liquid obtained in step 6 before adding ammonia?
Thanks
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Attention All Shipping Posted: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:38:59 AM
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anyone?
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Noman Posted: Saturday, July 12, 2008 3:12:10 AM
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You suck the liquid off the top of the mush and discard it, keeping the mush. The mush is your precipitated alks, though in salt form.
The water in step 7 redissolves the harmala salts in the mush and this is what you filter and add the ammonia to, converting the salts to alks and making them insoluable in water so they precip out.
My friend has found that it takes a bit more than overnight for the salts to precip in step 5. Give it a couple of days and you should see a definitely more solid layer collect on the bottom.
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Attention All Shipping Posted: Saturday, July 12, 2008 3:16:27 PM
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Thanks Noman, it's a lot clearer now.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:11 pm Post subject: EASY Harmaloid Freebase TEK
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Yo,
It's a shame to read aboot so many people ingesting rue (along with all its toxicity) straight up, or as a tea, when there's a simple procedure to obtain reasonably pure harmaloids in freebase form, which can then be gelcapped for pharmahuasca, or smoked prior to Dimitri for "fumahuasca."
Here's how:
1. Perform a basic Manske/Hassenfratz NaCl precipitation according to your preferred method (if you already have an establish method for this, skip to step number eight). IMO, the best way to do this is as follows: soak ~100g seeds overnite in a blender (you can add vine gar, which the standard tek calls for, but gar is stinky, hard on the lungs, and IMO unnecessary as the alkaloids are readily soluble in H20 anyway. But either way, soak the seeds then blend 'em, or grind 'em in a burr grinder, or use a mortar and pestle if you're hard core.
2. Boil ground or blended seeds ~1/2 hr. Strain thru t-shirt or other cloth, squeeze out as much liquid as possible, and boil again, strain again, and combine the two aqueous extracts. Just boiling 2X for 1/2 hr seems to get most of the alks.
3. Pre-mix 1/2 liter of saturated NaCl soln by adding NON-IODIZED NaCl to boiling H20 until it won't dissolve any more. Let the water cool, and filter out the salt that precips.
4. Reduce the volume of your combined aqueous extracts to ~1/2 liter, and dissolve another 23 grams of NaCl into the tea as well, just for good measure.
5. Combine the 1/2 liter of seed tea with the 1/2 liter of saturated NaCl soln in a quart masonic jar. Stick it in the fridge overnite.
6. Rather than filtering out all the liquid, which is a pain in the ass at this point cuz of all the filter-clogging oils, simply siphon or suck off the liquid from the top using syringe, turkey baster, or whatever. Then dump out the last little bit into a coffee filter in a funnel (or vaccum filter if you have one). The filter can be bunched up and moved around in the funnel to aid in getting the liquid to pass through.
7. Redissolve the resulting red gooey mush in ~1/2 liter of HOT distilled H20 (my tap water here has some solids which would precip out in the next phase, so I recommend distilled). Pass this liquid thru another coffee filter so as to remove some of the oils that will otherwise gum up the next phase.
(OPTIONAL: Repeat the NaCl precipitation one more time for extra purity. The NaCl precipitation seems to be the phase that removes the toxic uterotonic alkaloids such as viscine. Once, while trying to be a lazy ass, the NaCl phase was skipped altogether and an ammonia precip was performed directly on the original tea - the resulting extract worked fine on males, but the one female it was given to vomited excessively - this might have been a coincidence, but it might also have been due to the fact that these other alkaloids were precipitated along with the harmaloids. Regardless, the NaCl precip seems like a good thing to do at least once, possibly more.)
8. To the filtered aqueous harmaloid soln, add a small amt of ammonia. You will be able to see the alkaloids fall out of the soln, which goes from dark and yucky looking to bright yellow as the 'loids become visible.
9. Let the soln settle, it takes several hours for the alkaloids to fall to the bottom, leaving a dark liquid on top. Once again, suck off the black liquid from the top and discard it, then filter the last little bit of liquid out of the alkaloids.
You now have crude harmine & harmaline freebase, with perhaps a touch of other alkaloids, and still some plant oils and whatnot. According to Dale Pendell in Pharmako-Gnosis, he extracted some harmaloids using multiple NaCl precips and sent it to Shulgin for gc/ms analysis, which revealed a ratio of roughly 2:1 harmine:harmaline, though this ratio may vary with season, species, environmental conditions, etc. Plus harmaline tends to degrade into harmine, so handling and storage are also factors.
Two optional methods of cleaning this product further are:
1. Redissolve in aqueous soln (you will need to use a little acid, such as vine gar) and filter, then precip again with more ammonia. This is especially good for removing oils.
Or,
2. Place the alkaloids in a small container (I use a 30ml amber soln bottle), add roughly half the container's capacity in ammonia (~15ml in my case), and shake the hell out of it. Filter, and repeat until desired purity is achieved. You can tell how pure the harmaloids are by how dirty the ammonia is after washing - when it gets pretty clear, your 'loids are pretty clean.
Well, that's it. The resulting extract from this technique is EXTREMELY POTENT! USE CAUTION!
~50mg smoked is enough to double the length of a DMT blast (hypothetically, of course).
Oral doses of ~100 mg are probably sufficient to achieve facilitation via MAO inhibition, but you might wanna shoot closer to ~200mg to be safe. Purging is less likely with this extract than with straight up rue or rue brews, but it's still possible of course, due to the nature of the medicine itself.
Speaking of which, DO NOT mix harmaloids with psychoactives that increase the amount of serotonin active in the brain, like SSRI's (certain perscription psychoactives for depression or anxiety such as Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft, Lexapro, et al.) or for up to 8 weeks after stopping the SSRI (at least in the case of Prozac, which lingers like a mofo... the others should be gone in 4-6 wks but better safe than sorry!) Too much serotonin can lead to serotonin syndrome, which can in turn lead to death from hyperthermia. Also avoid MDMA (ecstasy) which also increases 5ht amts in the synapse. Also avoid nasal decongestants, allergy medications, amphetamines, antihistamines, or anything else which can cause hypertension, or hypOtension, for that matter...
But as long as you're not on any of that toxic pharmaceutical crap, harmaloids are physically safe in normal dosages. Even the dietary restrictions so often spoken of (avoiding tyramine, etc.) seem unnecessary, those restrictions apply more to pharmaceutical MAOIs which destroy the enzyme, rather than just preoccupying it temporarily like the harmaloids do.
And of course, all of this is to be done only in a country where healing is legal.
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Last edited by SyZyGyPSy on Sat Nov 24, 2007 3:46 am; edited 2 times in total
acolon_5
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:
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This is a nice looking tek!
I am DEFINITLEY going to try the ammonia purification stage...tired of my syrian rue goo from a normal NaCl precipitation.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject:
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I'm sure you'll be pleased with the results - let us know how it turns out!
Also, be sure to use adequate ventillation (or better yet, a vapor mask) when working with ammonia. Or if nothing else, at least hold your breath when pouring it! It not only reeks, it can have a cumulative damaging effect on one's breathing apparati. Protect your respiratory tract! And wear eye protection, since ammonia will blind you if it gets in your eyes.
And don't use just any old ammonia... Ace Hardware 10% janitorial strength is what you want.
That having been said, be safe & enjoy!
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whatisthecure
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:09 am Post subject:
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could you explain what goes on chemically by adding the ammonia? i havent tried this yet, i just did a manske extraction to no avail
acolon_5
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:33 pm Post subject:
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Harmine Salt (whatever form it occurs naturally in the rue) to Harmine Free Base.
Like Harmine HCL to Harmine. Since Ammonia is a base, and 100% volitile it frees up the harmine molecule. Since harmine base is not soluable in water it crashes out.
Please note I know only a tad of chem, but I believe this is correct.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 6:47 pm Post subject:
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Yeah that's my understanding of it. Ammo, being a stronger base than harmaloids, pulls the acid away from them, leaving them in freebase form. Much better for smoking. Plus, by dissolving your harmaloid salts (along with any residual NaCl) in water, then precipitating w/ammo, the NaCl stays dissolved in the solution, thus any salt is removed by this step, leaving you with near-pure alkaloids. It always took SWIM at least half a gram of manske extracted crud to get the same effects as ~100mg of this stuff.
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Coschi
Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:48 pm Post subject:
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Looks good,
Any idea what pH you're aiming for?
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acolon_5
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 3:26 pm Post subject:
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Keep pouring small amounts of ammonia until no more hamine base crashes out, take a Ph reading, wait a few minutes, add a little more, and if no more crashes out your best Ph would be your first reading.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:52 pm Post subject:
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Yeah it doesn't take much at all. SWIM never bothers to check the pH, he just pours in a splash of ammo and watches all the alks fall out, sometimes he adds a spash more just to be sure but it never seems to make a difference. He's tried adding more after precip and filtering just to see, and nothing ever comes of it.
I think there's actually a way to separate the harmine from the harmaline using ammo... if you add it dropwise, one of 'em is supposed to fall out first, then the other one comes out if you raise the pH a little more. They can then be separated under a microscope cuz the needles look different, apparently. SWIM has never seen the point in this though, as it sounds like a lot of extra trouble and he actually prefers the synergy of the two...
Still, if anyone wants to go thru the trouble to find an optimal pH, I'd be glad to know... please inform me if you do!
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Coschi
Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:19 pm Post subject:
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Quote:
Harmaline and harmine were found to have pKa values of 9.55 +/- 0.04
suggests you'd be aiming for a pH of around 12-13.. that seems too high though just because everyone who has tried NaOH to freebase harmala alks has killed the majority of the alks due to driving the pH too high which is why people suggest ammonia
Quote:
Weak alkalis (soluble bases) like ammonia give a pH of 10-11 but strong alkalis (soluble bases) like sodium hydroxide give a pH of 13-14
Next time you do the extraction perhaps you could find your happy level and then measure pH and let us know
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SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:17 am Post subject:
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Yeah, I think needing to have your pH that much higher than your pka might only apply for trying to get alkaloids to migrate from one solution to another? Maybe since all you're doing is precipitation, all you need is a pH of ~9.6? A higher pH might only be necessary to force a majority of alkaloids across the barrier between layers or something...
Here's an excellent source on harmaloids: The Chemical Gazette
It just sez to add it dropwise until cloudy precipitate forms. SWIM hates breathing in ammonia, and is often too lazy to don his respirator, so he usually just holds his breath and splashes in a bit, then puts the lid on the jar and runs away. It always works fine. Leave it setting somewhere warm, btw; do not decant in fridge.
SWIM's aboot to do some alchemy on a kilo soon, but has no pH pen as he has heard bad things aboot them not being accurate and never really saw the need for one anyway. He will consider getting one and reporting back on the pH needed, if someone can recommend a good source for a cheap and RELIABLE pH-o-meter?
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Coschi
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 11:29 am Post subject:
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hmm well the thing is as soon as you change an alks state it is willing to migrate to any layer present.. what i mean is that if you can get an alk to precipitate then you're at the same point as if you were to move it into another solvent.. you think?
pH pen's i've heard a range of comments, but straight litmus paper is fine for reporting pH values
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the_newcomer
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:16 pm Post subject:
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I love this site. Too bad I ingest an SNRI everyday otherwise I'd be trying this.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:11 pm Post subject:
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I'm honestly not sure about precipitation vs. migration... yeah, it would seem that they should be the same, but for some reason with MHRB it seems like the more you basify, the more goodies go into your NP (to an extent), whereas with harmaloids for instance you just hit a certain point where they all seem to fall out at once.
If it were really the case that "as soon as you change an alks state it is willing to migrate to any layer present," it seems like just one pull should get it all. This was my thought too at first, but now methinks perhaps layer migration is more a case of ions "battling for space," with a sort of osmotic "higher concentration moves to lower concentration" with respect to the ion gradient, where a stronger EM charge in one solution means more migration into the other as the greater the presence of ions, the more their charge "forces" the alkaloids across the barrier between layers. This is different than precipitation, I guess, in that the alkaloids are still -somewhat- soluble in both layers, whereas when precipping they just become not soluble at all any more. If this happened with Dimitri one could just basify an MHRB soup and let it set, then filter out semi-pure magick which could then be further purified... but this is not the case.
SWIM has pH papers... he sux at reading them but will give it a shot on his next transmutation and report back
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SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:27 pm Post subject:
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Newcomer, those selective reuptake inhibitors are some nasty shite. SWIM is convinced that we haven't yet begun to fathom the negative long-term side effects from those things... most FDA studies observe people for less than two years, but when those meds are prescribed it's usually with the intention of keeping someone on them for life!
Forgive me if I'm overstepping my bounds, I don't wanna tell anyone how to live their life. I just mean this as friendly advice from someone who has a good understanding of neuropharmacology & who has seen several close friends' lives ruined or severely damaged by reuptake inhibitors and other pharmaceutical black magick.
If they're working for you then by all means, follow what's right for you. But most people I've talked to who are on those things have said they felt like something wasn't right about it. Trust your feelings.
IMO, if USED PROPERLY in the right context, the combination of natural reversible MAOIs and methylated tryptamine alkaloids can heal you MUCH better than any SNRI (you'd have to be completely off of them first though, of course... Mescalito also comes to mind as a possible means of healing adrenal issues, since that's his pharmacological pathway... but not knowing the specifics of your situation it's hard to say anything really).
Reuptake inhibitors don't actually heal you at all, they just suppress symptoms while the root cause festers unattended. In fact they also suppress the very mechanisms by which we heal ourselves! It's a question of whether you want to take the difficult path of facing your inner demons and FIXING your problems, or whether you just want to sweep them under the rug, so to speak.
Please understand this is only my opinion. Again I mean no offense or condemnation against you personally, I just have something of a personal grudge against those types of medication cuz of what I've seen 'em do to people, and am simply trying to make sure you've considered all angles of your scenario.
Much love & light,
SyZ
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acolon_5
Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:20 pm Post subject:
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I'm with you 100% SyZyGyPSy....SSRI's and SNRI's are nasty, nasty psychoactives. I've seen people with only minor depression become violent and suicidal after taking the RI's for only two months. Not to mention after their episode the months and months it took them to get over the w/d's when they stopped taking these things. RI's ARE EVIL!
SSRI/SNRI's actually shrink the receptor sites for 5-HT thus creating a whole new set of probelms.
Whereas my understanding is that MAOI+MTrypts will actually help the receptor sites bind better with 5-HT for weeks after use. There was a study they did on Aya and it's pharmacological effects on the brain. It was found to be a much better anti-depressant than any of the current western meds.
This is only what I have observed and read. I am not a Dr or even pretend to play one on TV.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:39 am Post subject:
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You may not be a doctor but sadly it sounds like you have a better understanding of the human 5ht system than most psychiatrists.
Yes, RIs, while masking the symptoms of depression, not only make it worse in real life by keeping you from dealing with the root cause, they also make it worse pharmacologically by promoting what's called downregulation of receptor sites. Whereas, as you pointed out, ayahuasca was shown to increase the # of receptor sites for 5ht. Alcoholism and depression are associated with a decreased # of receptor sites, so this is a proposed mechanism of action for aya's antidepressive and antiaddictive effects.
It's as if there's a struggle between synthetick pharmaceutical death magick and organick jungle life magick. I am a scientist by nature but that's the best fit model as far as I can tell.
I had a friend who started taking medication for migraines. It made her drowsy, so they gave her a stimulant. Then she couldn't sleep, so they gave her sleeping pills. No studies have ever been done on the effects of combining meds like this, but they do it all the time. Before long the side effects had led to depression, anxiety, etc (of course, since she was now a walking medicine cabinet of toxic garbage). She called me one night to "say goodbye." She had overdosed on zoloft and depakote. I had to drive over there to find this out, at which point I had to call an ambulance and take her to the hospital to get her stomach pumped.
I helped a (now ex-) girlfriend get off zoloft and lexapro. I have seen firsthand the addictive grasp these demons (again, best fit model) exert on those unfortunate enough to trust their health and sanity to the care of so called medical professionals these daze. Not to diss on all doctors or anything, they've got a tough job, but treating people like broken monkey robots is no way to heal them.
As an ex heroin junkie, I know all about addiction . Life has so much more to offer when you aren't tied to a particular form of matter to get through your day-to-day life. Other material manifestations (in the form of 5ht receptor agonist molecules such as certain methylated tryptamines) helped show me this.
My best wishes to anyone caught in the web of pharmaceutical mumbo jumbo (it's somewhere we've all been, probly, in some way ). Again I mean nothing against anyone personally and only wish to help... any advice or anything else I can offer to anyone who wishes to know more, I will be glad to provide.
BTW I believe the reference for the study acolon_5 is referring to is "A study of the effects of ayahuasca in healthy volunteers" or something very similar-sounding. Pretty sure Strassman and Dennis McKenna were involved... thank the Source for those awesome dudes!
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oarguello
Posted: Thu Dec 27, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: How long after you smoke it?
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So how long after you smoke your ~50mg of freebase Rue extracts do you start to smoke your DMT?
Just to give you an idea....Drinking the tea version of RUE ( using 5 grams of syrian rue) on an empty stomach, SWIM smokes DMT about 30-40 minutes after consumption. Which is an average amount of time from what i read but higher amount than average.
Thanks for your input
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 2:41 am Post subject:
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When smoking one's harmaloids it doesn't seem to take that long. SWIM just smokes 'till he feels it, then maybe gets up and pisses or something and then sits back down and blasts off. This seems to turn a ~5 minute experience into a ~23 minute experience that SWIM finds much easier to work with... more like being shot out of a cannon with a parachute strapped on instead of a bungee cord, if that analogy makes any sense.
There might be other ways of doing it to achieve different effects... perhaps waiting longer would change things? It might allow for a buildup of 5ht, dopamine, and other neuroxmitterz that would alter the quality of the experience? Worth experimenting, perhaps...
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oarguello
Posted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 5:22 pm Post subject:
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SyZyGyPSy wrote:
There might be other ways of doing it to achieve different effects... perhaps waiting longer would change things? It might allow for a buildup of 5ht, dopamine, and other neuroxmitterz that would alter the quality of the experience? Worth experimenting, perhaps...
Well I know this is true for the tea! I use to wait 10-20 minutes after drinking the tea and SWIM's trip would go to about 20 minutes. I would wait longer about 40 minutes and trip would last about 40 minutes to an hour, with slow declining residual effects lasting another hour.
And definitely more managable than DMT without any Rue. I relate it to watching a movie. Regular DMT is like watching a movie in 20X fast forward. Where with Rue its starts at maybe 10X fast forward and slows to5x, 2x, then normal speed. But you still get to see the whole movie
....Speaking of movies i just saw the simpsons movie....seemed very suspicious that Homer drank Ayahuasca? His trip looked somewhat familiar...although i never breathed fire. LOL.
SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 12:21 am Post subject:
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Hmmm, thanks for the input. I'll have to have SWIM wait longer after smoking harmaloids next time and see what happens.
SWIM has previously smoked DMT well into his pharmahuasca trips on a few occasions, and thought it seemed to last aboot as long (with "it" referring to the "flash," not the afterglow which lasts for some time after fumahuasca and is obviously imperceptible while on pharmahuasca). For instance, smoking D right after smoking 50mg harmaloids kept him gone for about 3 songs from Entheogenic (~23 min at just under 8 min/song). Smoking D at Tool whilst on pharmahuasca and mushrooms also lasted for about 3-4 songs... unless he missed a few which is possible but yeah this is totally unscientific methodology so I'll take your word over SWIM's
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The Traveler
Site Admin
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 12:38 am Post subject:
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Since this topic is as popular as the other rue extraction tek , I'm making this one a sticky as well.
Kind regards,
The Traveler
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EZ4U2Shoot
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:07 pm Post subject:
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QUESTION:
What are the dietary concerns when smoking this?
I understand that if you plan to ingest MAOI containing plants or teas then there are some safety guidelines one should follow concerning diet. It seems (from what I've read and seem to understand) that it is suggested that you alter your diet for about a week before you are going to do this and then not eat anything at all on the day.
My sister is in the medical field and she stresses greatly that MAOI's are DANGEROUS. I understand that she is primarily refering to those that are prescribed for depression but there is obviously some concern about natural plant based as well.
Would someone please clarify specifically what dietary concerns and requirements to follow to maintain safety for both ingesting and smoking this?
Garulfo
Posted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 11:43 pm Post subject:
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I have no regular experience but I can say that a friend who is under SSRI ingested a bit of syrian rue extract just to test how it would works and had absolutly no adverse reaction. No special diet were done except not eating few hours before. However this might be a matter of dose as my friend just gave it a test. If experienced people says it is something to avoid... better be safe than sorry.
The Traveler
Site Admin
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 1:09 am Post subject:
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Check this thread about more MAOI info and look for my post with the link in it to see what is dangerous to eat/drink and what not.
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SyZyGyPSy
Posted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 8:12 pm Post subject:
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There's a few things to consider with regards to MAOI safety.
The first is medication. Nasal decongestands and allergy medications can have adverse reactions, but probably only if taken within a few hours of taking harmaloids.
SWIM once gave a VERY LARGE dose of harmaloids to a person who had taken an allergy pill earlier that day with no negative results... but this is not conclusive.
The main thing to avoid is SSRIs or anything else that increases the amount of serotonin in the brain (like MDMA!!!). This is more hypothetical than anything and may not be an issue with a singe dose of harmaloids, but you REALLY wanna use caution here cuz if you end up with too much 5ht in yer brane then you gets what's called serotonin syndrome, which is usually only unpleasant for a few hours but in extreme cases can cause DEATH by hyperthermia (sudden spike in body temp).
And what really sux is that things like prozac can take up to 8 weeks of being off it before you return to baseline
So use extreme caution when SSRI type stuff is involved, better safe than sorry!
As for foods it doesn't seem to be too big a deal. The diet cautions are mainly for irreversible maois that destroy the enzyme. Tests have been done with tyramine and reversible pharmaceutical maois like moclobemide and determined there was little risk involved, as the mao enzyme seems to selectively prefer to metabolize tyramine first, and harmaloids second... or so the theory goes, assuming harmaloids are like moclobemide. But again this is only speculation so exercise caution!
The diet mentioned in The Traveler's link sounds about right. SWIM normally tells people (after making sure they're not on SSRIs) to only eat FRESH foods the day of the ceremony, preferably only living things (fruits n' veggies, etc), and to avoid any solid food for at least 3-4 hrs prior, though a bannana or some carrot juice is usually ok up to an hour before if you're a wimp and can't go w/o food for a few hrs
It's really not too big a deal. The main thing is to avoid other meds. Also try to avoid processed foods for a few days before, just cuz the first thing this stuff does is find all the toxic evil in you and purge it. It's not that you -can't- eat bad all the way up to the day before, it's just that the first part of the ceremony will generally be easier for you if there's less for it to purge, that way the energy is feed up for it to go to work on your psyche instead of your body
Also it is SWIM's understanding that when smoking, it's really not a big deal what you eat. Although meds and booze are still an issue.
Just a few nights ago SWIM smoked a VERY SMALL amount of harmaloids, just enough to see if the smoke was blacklight responsive (sadly it's not, the 'loids have to be in salt form to flouresce apparently). Later that night he went out and had a beer, and it was fine, but then he took a sip of another kind of beer called Turbo Dog, and just that one sip made him almost black out for a few minutes, then he regained conscious just in time to run out the door and barf all over himself But this felt more like a bitch slap from the spirits, cuz SWIM shoulda known better...
Anyway, all risks aside, you're better off purifying yourself for other reasons as well. DMT is not something to be done on a whim. This is a ceremonial SACRAMENT, ok? A little preparation will have untold psychological and spiritual benefits, not to mention the health benefits that come from eating good for a few days. Sure we all mess up, and if you mess up on your diet it's not a big deal, but if you don't have the self control to eat decent foods for a day or two then what the hell are you doing messing around with DMT?
As for following restrictions afterward, you will find you are much more sensitive to the world around you. Your body will readily detect the chemical composition of things you ingest (this was the original function of the sense of "taste," before the tongue became merely another pleasure organ ). Listen to your body. SWIM knew after one sip that that beer was not for him. Foods are the same way. Your cells know... the purpose of pharmahuasca-type explorations is to re-establish brain-to-cell communication. Listen to your body.
If you truly want to experience healing, follow a spiritual dieta for at least two weeks after the ceremony (and at least a few days building up to it). If you're just looking for kicks, only the day of and perhaps the day after is really needed for safety purposes. But then if you're just looking for kicks why not just go shoot coke or something? (j/k... kind of )
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Attention All Shipping Posted: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 8:02:23 AM
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What sort of yield of harmaloid freebase are you getting from 100g of Syrian Rue?
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DrParadox Posted: Friday, February 29, 2008 2:32:03 PM
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Attention All Shipping wrote:
What sort of yield of harmaloid freebase are you getting from 100g of Syrian Rue?
SWIM tried it and said he got 1%. How about SWIY?
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DrParadox Posted: Friday, February 29, 2008 4:25:14 PM
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Can other bases besides (stinky) ammonia be used?
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Entropymancer Posted: Friday, February 29, 2008 11:30:30 PM
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Harmine: pKa 7.70
Harmaline: pK 4.2
I don't see any reason why sodium carbonate wouldn't work. To get ~99% of the harmine as the freebase, you'll probably want to aim for pH ~10 (+/- 0.5). If you only want the harmaline, aim for pH ~ 6.5.
And let us know how it goes, since this is entirely theoretical.
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DrParadox Posted: Saturday, March 01, 2008 12:10:55 AM
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Yes, sodium carbonate is exactly what SWIM had in mind... I'll ask SWIM how it turns out and post here.
Thanks!
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Friday, April 11, 2008 11:36:45 AM
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I'm interested to hear how the sodium carb thing goes... any hypothetical results yet?
SWIM sez you should get way more than 1% yield. He usually gets at least 4g from 100g seeds... could be your seeds are bunk, but more likely your tek is inefficient. Grind them to a powder, boil at least 3x in vine gar soln... you should get way more than 1% yield.
The problem I see with sodium carbonate is, correct me if I'm wrong, it doesn't evap, que no? The beauty of ammonia is that, while stinky, it evaps clean without leaving ANY residue. Still, I'd love to find a way to do it without smelling that crap...
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old Dead Head Posted: Friday, April 11, 2008 1:01:50 PM
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HEY SWIM is on Sereoquel and smokes spice regularly!!! What about that, and oh yea that other thing? you know FUN!!!! Seems to me if you get to serious you end up like Sasha and have to work for the DEA!!!! Just a thought!
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:22:48 PM
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Spice does not have any contraindicated interactions with other chemicals, that I know of. However, do not under any circumstances mix an MAOI (like harmaloids) with an SSRI (antidepressants like prozac, zoloft, lexapro, paxil, etc.) I'm not sure about seroquel, I don't think it has any SSRI properties to it, but check with a pharmacist first (just ask him if it's contraindicated for MAOIs). I wouldn't recommend it personally, but then I wouldn't recommend taking perscription zombie potions in the first place... that's just me tho.
Not sure what you mean aboot FUN, and Sasha, and the DEA... seems out of context, unless I'm missing something
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QC Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 10:55:09 AM
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Pure brilliance. I dreamt I used this tek last night. Thank you SyZyGyPSy!
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acolon_5 Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 11:42:39 AM
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Entropymancer wrote:
Harmine: pKa 7.70
Harmaline: pK 4.2
I don't see any reason why sodium carbonate wouldn't work. To get ~99% of the harmine as the freebase, you'll probably want to aim for pH ~10 (+/- 0.5). If you only want the harmaline, aim for pH ~ 6.5.
And let us know how it goes, since this is entirely theoretical.
Does this mean that one could precipitate out all the harmaline at 5.5-6.5 filter and then add more base to get mainly harmine???
That would be very cool.
"Just a few nights ago SWIM smoked a VERY SMALL amount of harmaloids, just enough to see if the smoke was blacklight responsive (sadly it's not, the 'loids have to be in salt form to flouresce apparently). "
No, but it does have to be wet! Dry salts and dry freebase harmaloids don't seem to flouresce at all, but adding a touch of water it shines! Couldn't tell you about the smoke from it though, hopefully all the alkaloids are being absorbed in your lungs.
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 6:06:14 PM
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Quote:
Dry salts and dry freebase harmaloids don't seem to flouresce at all, but adding a touch of water it shines
I think that's cuz the water forms a kind of hydroxide salt or something from it. Could be wrong about this but I think I remember reading about it somewhere as well, that the alks only flouresce in their salt form.
And yes, if one were to add ammonia dropwise to a harmaloid salt soln, the harmaline would fall out first, then the harmine. They could be separated in this way if one so desired. Though SWIM prefers the synergy of full spectrum plant spirit, this is of course a matter of opinion.
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Thursday, April 17, 2008 6:09:07 PM
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SWIM was originally thinking how cool it would be to have harmaloid smoke filling a blacklighted room during a music show or something. As indicated above, the smoke obviously doesn't flouresce. However, SWIM is now thinking perhaps a humidifier could be used to produce harmaloid salt water vapors, which could then fill a blacklighted room at a show and look really trippy cool perhaps...
He will aquire a humidifier and report back!
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acolon_5 Posted: Friday, April 18, 2008 8:04:01 PM
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SyZyGyPSy wrote:
SWIM was originally thinking how cool it would be to have harmaloid smoke filling a blacklighted room during a music show or something. As indicated above, the smoke obviously doesn't flouresce. However, SWIM is now thinking perhaps a humidifier could be used to produce harmaloid salt water vapors, which could then fill a blacklighted room at a show and look really trippy cool perhaps...
He will aquire a humidifier and report back!
Has SWIY tried smoking harmaloid salts? Maybe not quite a effictive or nice as freebase, but it might just SHINE!
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The Spice extends life
The Spice expands consciousness
The Spice is vital for space travel
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
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SyZyGyPSy Posted: Monday, April 28, 2008 10:13:09 PM
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Problem is, the salts dissociate before the alkaloid vaporizeth. A vaporized alkaloid cannot exist in salt form, if I understand correctly.
There's still hope for the humidifier though...
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Attention All Shipping Posted: Thursday, July 03, 2008 1:24:57 PM
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I may be being a bit dim but can you clarify something about this tek please:
"5. Combine the 1/2 liter of seed tea with the 1/2 liter of saturated NaCl soln in a quart masonic jar. Stick it in the fridge overnite.
6. Rather than filtering out all the liquid, which is a pain in the ass at this point cuz of all the filter-clogging oils, simply siphon or suck off the liquid from the top using syringe, turkey baster, or whatever. Then dump out the last little bit into a coffee filter in a funnel (or vaccum filter if you have one). The filter can be bunched up and moved around in the funnel to aid in getting the liquid to pass through.
7. Redissolve the resulting red gooey mush in ~1/2 liter of HOT distilled H20 (my tap water here has some solids which would precip out in the next phase, so I recommend distilled). Pass this liquid thru another coffee filter so as to remove some of the oils that will otherwise gum up the next phase."
(1) Is it the case that the liquid on the top is what is kept and just all solids/sludge redissolved in step 7? as I'm not getting any really clearly defined layers.
(2) What is done with the 1/2 litre of H2O in which the mush is redissolved in? Is this filtered again and then added to the liquid obtained in step 6 before adding ammonia?
Thanks
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Attention All Shipping Posted: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:38:59 AM
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anyone?
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Noman Posted: Saturday, July 12, 2008 3:12:10 AM
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You suck the liquid off the top of the mush and discard it, keeping the mush. The mush is your precipitated alks, though in salt form.
The water in step 7 redissolves the harmala salts in the mush and this is what you filter and add the ammonia to, converting the salts to alks and making them insoluable in water so they precip out.
My friend has found that it takes a bit more than overnight for the salts to precip in step 5. Give it a couple of days and you should see a definitely more solid layer collect on the bottom.
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Attention All Shipping Posted: Saturday, July 12, 2008 3:16:27 PM
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Thanks Noman, it's a lot clearer now.
ok so im interested in doing one of these two teks.. but I have a few questions before deciding which and understnading it..
The first tek is the salt tek with alcohol cleaning up (I will call ´acolon´s tek just for simplification but he said it was someone else who made).. The second is the salt with ammonia precipitation (I will call syzy tek)
so basically what this acolon tek says is to keep the grudge that precipitates out of the salt-saturated+rue tea solution
BUT..
here what syzy keeps as the source of the alkaloids is the FILTERED solution..
So question 1: How can it be that in one, the alkaloids are in the grudge which stayed on top of the filter, and in the other the alkaloids are in the filtered solution??
now another thing..
in acolon´s tek, it is mentioned the use of methyl alcohol.. SWIM doesnt have access to that.. SWIM has access to cereal alcohol, Isopropyl alcohol, alcohol 99 GL and alcohol 96 GL.
So question 2: Would any of them work, and which one of them would be better?
Question 3: in acolon´s tek, it just seems way easier than syzy.. but is the result as good? Is it a mix of harmine and harmaline? What is the dosage for using as MAOI?
Question 4: Does acolon´s tek get rid of vasicine and vasicinone?
thanks a lot!
The first tek is the salt tek with alcohol cleaning up (I will call ´acolon´s tek just for simplification but he said it was someone else who made).. The second is the salt with ammonia precipitation (I will call syzy tek)
acolon_5 said:
so basically what this acolon tek says is to keep the grudge that precipitates out of the salt-saturated+rue tea solution
BUT..
acolon_5 said:
here what syzy keeps as the source of the alkaloids is the FILTERED solution..
So question 1: How can it be that in one, the alkaloids are in the grudge which stayed on top of the filter, and in the other the alkaloids are in the filtered solution??
now another thing..
in acolon´s tek, it is mentioned the use of methyl alcohol.. SWIM doesnt have access to that.. SWIM has access to cereal alcohol, Isopropyl alcohol, alcohol 99 GL and alcohol 96 GL.
So question 2: Would any of them work, and which one of them would be better?
Question 3: in acolon´s tek, it just seems way easier than syzy.. but is the result as good? Is it a mix of harmine and harmaline? What is the dosage for using as MAOI?
Question 4: Does acolon´s tek get rid of vasicine and vasicinone?
thanks a lot!
anybody?
kemist
John
Endlessness mush , what you talking about???>>> here what syzy keeps as the source of the alkaloids is the FILTERED solution..
So question 1: How can it be that in one, the alkaloids are in the grudge which stayed on top of the filter, and in the other the alkaloids are in the filtered solution??>>>>
In the other he didn`t filtered out alkaloids, he evaporated extract an redisolved it. It`s a common method in advanced chemistri cos some of the oils doesn`t redissolve and u can filtered them out. So he didn`t filtered out alks. he just remo0ved some oils. BUT therafter he basified with ammonia and become able to filter out some precpipate alkaloids. You should read it propery, mate!!!
So question 1: How can it be that in one, the alkaloids are in the grudge which stayed on top of the filter, and in the other the alkaloids are in the filtered solution??>>>>
In the other he didn`t filtered out alkaloids, he evaporated extract an redisolved it. It`s a common method in advanced chemistri cos some of the oils doesn`t redissolve and u can filtered them out. So he didn`t filtered out alks. he just remo0ved some oils. BUT therafter he basified with ammonia and become able to filter out some precpipate alkaloids. You should read it propery, mate!!!
you´re right kemist I should have read more carefully.. now I did and understand more.. so the difference between the two teks is basically that in one, the precipitation happens when small amounts of ammonia is added.. on the other, precipitation is by the water getting colder..
So now I have a few more questions:
Does the salt not precipitate when the water gets colder too ?
Secondly.. The question of vasicine and vasicinone remains, do they not precipitate together?
thirdly.. are harmine and harmaline in salt form in such precipitation? I ask because I imagine they are as salts in the plant.. With the amonia tek, maybe the ammonia would be enough to basify and make them freebases, but what about with the only-salt and freezing the water tek? do they crash out as salt?
and acolon: is there any link for the specific A/B tek for harmine harmaline? I ask this because I only saw it mentioned briefly.. SWIM can perform an AB but would just like to know if for example freeze precipitation also works, if harmine/harmaline both precipitate, and what are the amounts necessary of water, lye and solvent in the case of syrian rue..
thanks guys
So now I have a few more questions:
Does the salt not precipitate when the water gets colder too ?
Secondly.. The question of vasicine and vasicinone remains, do they not precipitate together?
thirdly.. are harmine and harmaline in salt form in such precipitation? I ask because I imagine they are as salts in the plant.. With the amonia tek, maybe the ammonia would be enough to basify and make them freebases, but what about with the only-salt and freezing the water tek? do they crash out as salt?
and acolon: is there any link for the specific A/B tek for harmine harmaline? I ask this because I only saw it mentioned briefly.. SWIM can perform an AB but would just like to know if for example freeze precipitation also works, if harmine/harmaline both precipitate, and what are the amounts necessary of water, lye and solvent in the case of syrian rue..
thanks guys
69ron
Esteemed member
endlessness said:
It would if it was fully saturated with salt when hot, but it’s not. Only 10% salt is added. Water can hold 35.7 % salt at 0 C (this value varies slightly depending on who’s source you read!). So at 10% no salt will precipitate out.
However, the product from this technique will always be contaminated with a small amount of salt because when you filter it, some of the salt water remains on the alkaloids and dries there.
endlessness said:
Supposedly they do not precipitate when salt is added, only the harmala alkaloids do. But I haven’t seen that clearly stated as a fact.
endlessness said:
With the salt only method they crash out in hydrochloride salt form because harmine HCl and harmaline HCl are insoluble in solutions of chlorides such as sodium chloride. They are also insoluble in hydrochloric acid, which is another type of chloride solution.
Even if you had harmine citrate, and you dissolved that in a 10% salt solution, it would precipitate out as harmine HCl. The salt will convert the citrate into a hydrochloride, because harmine hydrochloride is insoluble in salt water. If it wasn’t insoluble in salt water, it would stay as harmine citrate. Since harmine citrate is soluble but harmine hydrochloride is not, it tips the equilibrium in favor of creating harmine hydrochloride from the sodium chloride in solution. It’s quite an interesting extraction trick that can also be applied to other more interesting alkaloids.
You should see what happens when you do this with Mimosa extracted with dilute hydrochloric acid. The result is very interesting (HINT HINT
)
69ron said:
which would not be a problem I guess.. I mean, at least for taking orally.. dont know if when insufflating harmine/harmaline with small bits of salt, it would be bad..
The only thing overall would be one would have to compensate the amounts, when measuring how much to ingest, but if the salt is in a 1/100 ration with the alkaloids, for example, or less, then it wouldnt make any difference for a 100 or 150mg dose and one could just pretend impurities are not there..
69ron said:
very interesting, thanks for the info
69ron said:You should see what happens when you do this with Mimosa extracted with dilute hydrochloric acid. The result is very interesting (HINT HINT
tell us about it
BTW ron, would you tell us what does SWIY consider of these 2 teks and a standard A/B, which one SWIY think is best, considering SWIY´s experience with all these substances?
thanks
69ron
Esteemed member
endlessness said:
If the salt water is sucked through a vacuum filtration system in a Buchner funnel, the remaining salt will be minimal, but it’s enough that you can taste it. Sometimes it’s as much as 50% salt!
I’ll write a detailed report on it in the near future and post it.endlessness said:69ron said:You should see what happens when you do this with Mimosa extracted with dilute hydrochloric acid. The result is very interesting (HINT HINT
tell us about it
endlessness said:BTW ron, would you tell us what does SWIY consider of these 2 teks and a standard A/B, which one SWIY think is best, considering SWIY´s experience with all these substances?
thanks
If you just want the harmala alkaloids, the salting out tech is the easiest. That’s the only tech that easily isolates the harmala alkaloids from the rest of the alkaloids in just a few steps using all easy to find food grade chemicals. The result is up to 50% salt in some cases, especially if large crystals don’t form. It’s best to force large crystals to form. The larger crystals will have much less salt in them after filtering.
After that tech, using ammonia to freebase the alkaloids and then washing with ammonia produces a very clean product free of salt.
I think for most people that’s plenty good enough.
The main problem in all the techs is filtering. The extract is next to impossible to filter. Even the best quality filter papers clog right away when doing the initial filtering.
Personally, considering the headaches you’ll have filtering the stuff, SWIM would rather buy it in pure form on-line. Let someone else deal with the filter headaches.
513orangejuice
cindy
Whats wrong with just using cloth filters, and sqeazing the plant material??? like your makin lemonaide? lol ,...IMO this is extremely effective, providing SWIY makes sure SWIY does about 2 more boiling acidic h20 extractions than normal, entill the once dark seed pulp appears quite pale, like it been heavily bleached. After that, the water wont even really glow anymore, so SWIM would figure to just say "fuk it". SWIM finds, running em once threw a cloth, and twice threw a coffee, very clear solutions generally result. Filters faster too this way, by letting the seed gloop somewhat settle, and pouring the liquid threw the cloth first. Then just put the gloop in the cloth, and Sqeeaaseeee...
SWIM started doing this when swim realized swim better let it cool for a little bit before sqeasing the liquid out, as the shit was hizz- ot!
Plus, since heat is not such a big deal each extraction can be speeded up to about a half an hour,..then simmered down to a alky saturated sol ussally in an hour.
So all together, from plant material to harmaline/harmine satured acidic solution, takes about 3 - 3 1/2 hours. ..Or so says this swim i know,...
SWIM finds, running em once threw a cloth, and twice threw a coffee, very clear solutions generally result. Filters faster too this way, by letting the seed gloop somewhat settle, and pouring the liquid threw the cloth first. Then just put the gloop in the cloth, and Sqeeaaseeee... SWIM started doing this when swim realized swim better let it cool for a little bit before sqeasing the liquid out, as the shit was hizz- ot!
Plus, since heat is not such a big deal each extraction can be speeded up to about a half an hour,..then simmered down to a alky saturated sol ussally in an hour.
So all together, from plant material to harmaline/harmine satured acidic solution, takes about 3 - 3 1/2 hours. ..Or so says this swim i know,...
Use an egg white to solve the problem. Removes all particles, leaving a clear liquid.
Hi, re to the previous posts about the use of ethanol and harmala alkaloids, the brown impurity/harmala red(?) resulting after incubation of the crude Manske precipitate in ethanol was assayed. With reference to the picture on the left, the yellow stuff is indeed harmine and harmaline exhibiting the standard effects when taken alone or in combination with smoked spice at the 200mg oral dose.
The brown/red stuff was scraped (see picture on the right and was also bioassayed. It is freely soluble in water (see picture) and it has some weird activity. No effects whatsoever were noticed when 400mg were ingested. But the next day, when it was tried with combination some trully weird combinations emerged;
Oral dose 200mg, then smoked 60mg of spice. The guy who performed this assay was grabbed almost literally from the balls. His sitter reported that he was out there for 30min before eyes were opened again, pretty unusual since a) no effects from the brown stuff were expected and b) the usual duration for him is ~10min. The after visuals lasted fore a good 1 hour.
Back to reality for a while, then 5 hours (!) later he decided to smoke spice again, this time 30mg. That was not as intense, but this time the after effects lasted for almost 2 hours and were very very psychedelic (in the true sense of the word) experiencing running thoughts, big dilation of time and a ayahuasca / mushroom type of feeling!
This guy has no explanation of what might have happened, but he is almost convinced that the brown stuff has an activity of its own, distinctly different from his "standard" oral harmine/harmaline + smoked spice combination effects! Could it be some THH effect?
The brown/red stuff was scraped (see picture on the right and was also bioassayed. It is freely soluble in water (see picture) and it has some weird activity. No effects whatsoever were noticed when 400mg were ingested. But the next day, when it was tried with combination some trully weird combinations emerged;
Oral dose 200mg, then smoked 60mg of spice. The guy who performed this assay was grabbed almost literally from the balls. His sitter reported that he was out there for 30min before eyes were opened again, pretty unusual since a) no effects from the brown stuff were expected and b) the usual duration for him is ~10min. The after visuals lasted fore a good 1 hour.
Back to reality for a while, then 5 hours (!) later he decided to smoke spice again, this time 30mg. That was not as intense, but this time the after effects lasted for almost 2 hours and were very very psychedelic (in the true sense of the word) experiencing running thoughts, big dilation of time and a ayahuasca / mushroom type of feeling!
This guy has no explanation of what might have happened, but he is almost convinced that the brown stuff has an activity of its own, distinctly different from his "standard" oral harmine/harmaline + smoked spice combination effects! Could it be some THH effect?
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Could harmine or harmaline degrade to THH?
THH has a long half-life of 532 minutes(almost 9 hours!) in contrast to harmine, with 115.6 minutes(not even 2 hours).
THH has a long half-life of 532 minutes(almost 9 hours!) in contrast to harmine, with 115.6 minutes(not even 2 hours).
that is very very peculiar, infundibulum!
if SWIY bioassays again, please let us know
this is becoming more and more interesting. Could this compound be a potent MAOI but not noticeably active on it´s own?
lets see if more people bring info to this
if SWIY bioassays again, please let us know
this is becoming more and more interesting. Could this compound be a potent MAOI but not noticeably active on it´s own?
lets see if more people bring info to this
69ron
Esteemed member
SWIM has tried THH many times now. Orally the effect lasts about 8 hours.
It’s not a potent MAOI at all, but it does dramatically increase the length of a trip by about 3 times. SWIM found this to be the case in mixing it with 5-MeO-DMT and with 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine). Another SWIM found this also to be the case with DMT.
It didn’t make the trips stronger as an MAOI would, it just made them last longer.
I think the effect talked about above is from a low dose of harmalol. When SWIM took a large dose of harmalol alone orally, it caused a psilocin like effect, but it was without visual effects. SWIM only tried it once. I believe harmalol in conjunction with DMT or something similar would likely have the effects talked about above.
I wish there was a supplier that sold harmalol at a reasonable price. SWIM would like to try it again.
It’s not a potent MAOI at all, but it does dramatically increase the length of a trip by about 3 times. SWIM found this to be the case in mixing it with 5-MeO-DMT and with 5-HO-DMT (bufotenine). Another SWIM found this also to be the case with DMT.
It didn’t make the trips stronger as an MAOI would, it just made them last longer.
I think the effect talked about above is from a low dose of harmalol. When SWIM took a large dose of harmalol alone orally, it caused a psilocin like effect, but it was without visual effects. SWIM only tried it once. I believe harmalol in conjunction with DMT or something similar would likely have the effects talked about above.
I wish there was a supplier that sold harmalol at a reasonable price. SWIM would like to try it again.
how much water is reasonable for each boil 50g of the rue? should I reduce after putting together the boils or is it not necessary, as long as the whole water is NaCl saturated?
how much ammonia is ´just a little bit´ ? a few drops, 100ml, what? Can it be too much ammonia?
thanks
how much ammonia is ´just a little bit´ ? a few drops, 100ml, what? Can it be too much ammonia?
thanks
anybody?