Harmine, harmaline and THH from Syrian Rue. Verification and finetuning of the VDS-protocols

[skoobysnax]

So for a 70kg person the max daily intake should be no more than 70mg (But according to the author this is still a toxic level).

According to the author it is toxic when taken daily. People usually don't take THH daily, but I guess some might.

The ammonia precipitation also removes a good deal of metals. blue.magic did a test (sorry I can't find it) and it showed no detectable levels post-ammonia precipitation.

But come to think of it, I wonder if I should use gloves while handling zinc powder...

Product floresces green which may indicate poor storage. I am really having some second thoughts about putting this in my body.

Have you ever made your own THH?
It will fluoresce green even after a few hours. It takes very little harmaline to make the solution green.

I have not yet. Currently i do not have space for extractions and no vacuum filter which looks like I may need to do it properly but i am keeping my eye on these THH discussions. I am quite interested. A path to clean up what i have interests me.
The metals are of more concern than oxidation.

 

[Woolmer]

70mg does sound like a lot of lead.

Did some further reading and the max daily intake is definitely in the micrograms (seems to be around 250ug) rather than mg. So this seems to be an error on the authors end.

The risk of 750ug lead per 500mg THH will not be worth it for me.. even if most of the lead does not carry through to the end product.

I will rather attempt the magnesium reduction.

 

[ava69]

Long time chemist: Harmaline to THH in 1.5 hour, can be done using fancy equipment as shown in pic, or alternately with coffee filters and no machinery...but wait time increased...both ways explained, and how to keep harmine separate from harmaline:

Post #12: Journal: 50 Sublingual | <span style="frontcolor:pink !Important ;">High Pobability of Braindamage by Creepy non tested Drugs (forced by scammer 69ron)</span> | DMT Ayahuasca journeys over a years time - Pharmahuasca - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

 

[RoundAbout]

70mg does sound like a lot of lead.

Did some further reading and the max daily intake is definitely in the micrograms (seems to be around 250ug) rather than mg. So this seems to be an error on the authors end.

I would guess the author is trying to say that pharmaceutical companies try to keep the amount of lead in their products (as an impurity) to 1ppm (1ppm = 1μg/g). The wording is confusing though (perhaps not the author's first language).

Here's some FDA recommendations: Q3D(R1) Elemental Impurities Guidance for Industry

The concentration in drug products is 0.5ppm, oral permitted daily exposure (PDE) is 5ug/day (the European Q3D seems to be the same for the PDE also). The PDE is set based on toxicity in children.

Edit: Just a general thought: most zinc is probably derived from sphalerite (ZnS), which often co-occurs with galena (PbS). So perhaps that is why Pb contamination is a common issue (beyond the technical details of refining).

 

[vin9x]

Hello.

Sorry for the noob question but is there a simple oxidation or reduction pathway for THH from syrian rue extracts?
Even just slightly boosting THH content with basic kitchen equipment would be great.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Hello.

Sorry for the noob question but is there a simple oxidation or reduction pathway for THH from syrian rue extracts?
Even just slightly boosting THH content with basic kitchen equipment would be great.

Please take the time to read the thread at least a little

It's a reduction. You'll need zinc powder or magnesium and, preferably, magnetic stirring. You'd need to separate the alkaloids from the rue tea first. It's wasteful to try the reduction on rue tea 'straight from the pot'. Just in case you're thinking about alternatives to magnesium or zinc, I've never seen anyone try aluminium foil as a 'kitchen' reductant for rue but I think there would be technical issues with it which are in need of solving.

Edit: A bit more reading!

 

[vin9x]

That's sounds easy enough. Thanks!

Zinc and magnesium is exactly the kind of stuff I define as "kitchen level"
In fact I use those reactants every morning when drinking my vitamins haha

 

[downwardsfromzero]

That's sounds easy enough. Thanks!

Zinc and magnesium is exactly the kind of stuff I define as "kitchen level"
In fact I use those reactants every morning when drinking my vitamins haha

No you don't. There's a big difference between metallic zinc or magnesium, and the magnesium or zinc compounds you'll find in your mineral supplements. You'll need zinc powder, or magnesium ribbon or granules, for reducing harmaline to THH. It is not possible to achieve this using zinc or magnesium supplements.

 

[murklan]

On this subject I have some questions.

I did a magnesium reduction of av mixed harmine/harmaline extraction. I didn't bother to separate the two before, so in the resulting precipitate I also have harmine. Thinking that I anyway was going to use harmine so that would be good.

I've now used it 5-6 times, both orally and sublingual.

So the questions:
I have it as a freebase and wonder how good that is for sublingual use?
Can I make a manske on it? (dissolve in a acid and add salt) And would that make THH HCL?

I also read from ava69 that if you don't separate harmine/harmaline before the reduction the remaining harmine is also changed, in a was that is not good. Is this something that others has experienced?
I get a bit nauseous when taking the THH-mixture orally at ~150mg, that is the first time I experience that with harmines. I usually take 200-220 mg of mixed harmine/harmaline and don't feel nauseous.

Glad for any experiences or insights.

 

[vin9x]

How did the effects differ between the original alkaloid mixture and the THH-boosted one (apart from the nausea)?

 

[murklan]

How did the effects differ between the original alkaloid mixture and the THH-boosted one (apart from the nausea)?

First I want to say that I've only used it together with vaped DMT. Not by itself (apart from that I take it and wait around 2-3h (for orally) so then I get a feeling for it before vaping).

Well I'm still navigating around the effects myself. But the THH really does make a difference. When taking it alone (without also adding my mixed harmine/harmaline) it reminds me of taking harmine alone before DMT. A more clear head. But it really alters the visual and general 'feeling' of the DMT journey. Fro me it's not the highly abstract, geometrical domains any more but more earthly, mythical, personal. A few times it has given me strong CEV colors (something that I for some reason mostly lack nowadays when taking harmine/harmaline and vaping DMT). But I feel that is also (at least when combined with harmaline) gets more emotional and personal. It also have given me really hot flashes so that I have to partly undress. Something that is usually the opposite.

 

[vin9x]

Interesting, definitely sounds like I need to give it a shot then.
I currently use rue extract as self medication but I have to go right to the edge of nausea to get the desired meditative and uplifting effect.

I had a look into the vinegar+zinc reduction thread and am trying to figure out how you could simplify the process further.
The end goal is a drinkable THH-salt solution. There is no need for dried freebase alkaloids.
Does this mean I could skip the base precip step?

 

[cyanite]

Does this mean I could skip the base precip step?

Do you mean drinking the reduced acidic solution?

The answer would be no, because the vinegar still contains zinc (and possibly other metallic) salts along with the THH. You get rid of the zinc salts by basing with excess ammonia so the zinc will stay dissolved in the basic solution while your THH will precipitate. After filtering and washing the THH freebase you can dissolve it again in vinegar or do a Manske and dissolve your THH-HCl in water.

 

[vin9x]

Hmm, ok I will do the precipation + ethanol pull then as described in the thread.
Do the harmala alkaloids have to be in freebase form for the reaction?

 

[downwardsfromzero]

On this subject I have some questions.

I did a magnesium reduction of av mixed harmine/harmaline extraction. I didn't bother to separate the two before, so in the resulting precipitate I also have harmine. Thinking that I anyway was going to use harmine so that would be good.

I've now used it 5-6 times, both orally and sublingual.

So the questions:
I have it as a freebase and wonder how good that is for sublingual use?
Can I make a manske on it? (dissolve in a acid and add salt) And would that make THH HCL?

I also read from ava69 that if you don't separate harmine/harmaline before the reduction the remaining harmine is also changed, in a was that is not good. Is this something that others has experienced?
I get a bit nauseous when taking the THH-mixture orally at ~150mg, that is the first time I experience that with harmines. I usually take 200-220 mg of mixed harmine/harmaline and don't feel nauseous.

Glad for any experiences or insights.

Did you separate the alkaloids from the magnesium salts? In my case, after trying a crude magnesium reduction (with citric + ascorbic acids) on rue tea and tasting the result without further processing (yeah, stupid - don't do this!) there was - unsurprisingly - some laxative effect.

Without an actual chemical analysis we can only speculate what might happen when harmine is present during the harmaline/zinc reduction. Dimerisation or a similar coupling reaction is possible, where the harmine can trap a radical anion of the partially reduced harmaline. Perhaps the product of this kind of reaction is what has the nauseant effect. Emetine is a dimeric isoquinoline alkaloid although that doesn't necessarily count for anything. There are other kinds of dimeric alkaloids that do other things, and I would note that for emetine there are myocardiac toxicity risks. The main point still stands, being that if unknown dimeric or other oligomeric alkaloids are being formed in the harmine/harmaline reduction mixture we are dealing with unknown toxicity risks and this is something best avoided.

I currently use rue extract as self medication but I have to go right to the edge of nausea to get the desired meditative and uplifting effect.

A brew made with dark roasted rue seeds is worth a try. This seems to be a simple way of converting the alkaloid content to harmine with negligible harmaline content. By adding in whatever amount of unroasted or lightly roasted seeds it's possible to tune the harmine/harmaline ratio (more or less) to a more desirable level. It may be wasteful as it seems the alkaloid content of the seeds is diminished either by decomposition or vaporization but rue seeds are usually cheap.

As some indication, tea from 7g dark roasted rue seeds was fully manageable for me whereas 3.5g raw seed brought dizziness and nausea albeit not overwhelmingly so.

 

[murklan]

Did you separate the alkaloids from the magnesium salts? In my case, after trying a crude magnesium reduction (with citric + ascorbic acids) on rue tea and tasting the result without further processing (yeah, stupid - don't do this!) there was - unsurprisingly - some laxative effect.

I can imagine that! But I did a separation with ammonia, and I also don't feel any laxative effects from magnesium salts But regarding what you write below. I have felt a mild pain in my chest for some time now. But I have associated it more with the lungs and how they are doing. Being indoors in winter, living with a fire stove and it's particles, and finally all this with covid and the lungs (I don't thing I've had it but can't be sure).

Thanks for the info! Is there some way to separate the THH from the harmine/'other things' in my mix now you think?

Without an actual chemical analysis we can only speculate what might happen when harmine is present during the harmaline/zinc reduction. Dimerisation or a similar coupling reaction is possible, where the harmine can trap a radical anion of the partially reduced harmaline. Perhaps the product of this kind of reaction is what has the nauseant effect. Emetine is a dimeric isoquinoline alkaloid although that doesn't necessarily count for anything. There are other kinds of dimeric alkaloids that do other things, and I would note that for emetine there are myocardiac toxicity risks. The main point still stands, being that if unknown dimeric or other oligomeric alkaloids are being formed in the harmine/harmaline reduction mixture we are dealing with unknown toxicity risks and this is something best avoided.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Firstly, I'd like to absolutely clarify that that emetine will not, under any circumstances, be formed as a side-product in a zinc reduction of harmaline in the presence of harmine. It was just an illustration of a kind of dimeric alkaloid of sorts.

Thanks for the info! Is there some way to separate the THH from the harmine/'other things' in my mix now you think?

Ideally, you'd use a TLC kit in order to see just what's in there. If you get more than three spots (harmine, harmaline and THH) then there's more cause for concern. Two spots would mean you had a reasonable certainty of them being just harmine and THH. Three spots would be ambiguous - it could be harmine, harmaline and THH, or it could be harmine, THH and the mystery compound. Ideally you'd test a sample from the unreacted alkaloids alongside the result of the reduction. For a bit more clarity.

Dealing with unknowns is tricky at the kitchen lab level. Even a Manske would only separate out the harmine; iirc THH doesn't separate with a Manske. A TLC on the Manske result would provide a bit more information - ideally, you'd have a [TLC] plate with a spot on from each step of the process. Without looking into the solubility details in multiple solvents for THH and harmine, I can't recommend any particular chemical separation process at the kitchen level. You'd have to start considering vacuum sublimation or column chromatography if the simpler clean-up methods didn't appear to be giving results - and we don't even specifically know whether you've got a reaction by-product as a contaminant.

Your starting point would be TLC, or a paid-for lab analysis like Energy Control or Bunk Police for example.

 

[murklan]

Firstly, I'd like to absolutely clarify that that emetine will not, under any circumstances, be formed as a side-product in a zinc reduction of harmaline in the presence of harmine. It was just an illustration of a kind of dimeric alkaloid of sorts.

I understood that is was unclear what could happen, but glad that you clarified that. Don't want people, or myself, to worry unnecessarily.

Ideally, you'd use a TLC kit in order to see just what's in there. ...

Yes, but I don't think I'll do this this time. Instead I'll try to separate before the mag. reduction. Witch leads me to another question regarding equipment (perhaps another thread). I've had a cheap ph-meter that stopped working and now I wonder if I should buy a new one, a bit more expensive. But I've read (here for example) that the lifespan of the probe is short around 1-2 years and if you cant replace it the meter becomes something that I would have to replace way to often for my needs. How are you doing?

Dealing with unknowns is tricky at the kitchen lab level. Even a Manske would only separate out the harmine; iirc THH doesn't separate with a Manske. A TLC on the Manske result would provide a bit more information - ideally, you'd have a [TLC] plate with a spot on from each step of the process. Without looking into the solubility details in multiple solvents for THH and harmine, I can't recommend any particular chemical separation process at the kitchen level. You'd have to start considering vacuum sublimation or column chromatography if the simpler clean-up methods didn't appear to be giving results - and we don't even specifically know whether you've got a reaction by-product as a contaminant.

Your starting point would be TLC, or a paid-for lab analysis like Energy Control or Bunk Police for example.

Ok, but it manske don't separate THH how can one make THH HLC? My chemistry knowledge is way behind most of you here on the forum. But I'm trying and I'm quite good at searching the net.

I understand that it would be the best to do a TLC after every step. That would be useful. Thanks again for your reply.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Yes, but I don't think I'll do this this time. Instead I'll try to separate before the mag. reduction. Witch leads me to another question regarding equipment (perhaps another thread). I've had a cheap ph-meter that stopped working and now I wonder if I should buy a new one, a bit more expensive. But I've read (here for example) that the lifespan of the probe is short around 1-2 years and if you cant replace it the meter becomes something that I would have to replace way to often for my needs. How are you doing?

RE: the suspected impurity - prevention is definitely better than cure!

It's an unfortunate fact of life that pH probes tend to get wrecked by high pH. Looking after them carefully is probably the best way to maximise their lifespan. That would involve washing off any high pH residues as quickly as possible - distilled water, dilute acid then more distilled water.

To make THH HCl you'd precipitate the freebase and redissolve in HCl, then evaporate slowly to collect crystals. I'm currently working my way through a succession of cooks on 1kg of rue so I'll be finding out a bit more of what we can do with THH crystallisation, precipitation, etc.

 

[murklan]

It's an unfortunate fact of life that pH probes tend to get wrecked by high pH. Looking after them carefully is probably the best way to maximise their lifespan. That would involve washing off any high pH residues as quickly as possible - distilled water, dilute acid then more distilled water.

Good to know. Do you store it in a special liquid?

To make THH HCl you'd precipitate the freebase and redissolve in HCl, then evaporate slowly to collect crystals. I'm currently working my way through a succession of cooks on 1kg of rue so I'll be finding out a bit more of what we can do with THH crystallisation, precipitation, etc.

But I might be totally ignorant. But if THH don't precipitate in a manske, but hamine do (and perhaps other 'impureties'). Can't this be a way to separate THH from the rest? Do a manske and pour off the THH + NaCl salt liquid. And then base this? Or will the NaCl mess things up?

Great with 1kg of rue!