Harmine In Passioflora Caerulea - Higher than P. Incarnata

[Ambivalent]

I know that it have been discused about this plant many times, and what i can mostly see is that people on forums say that P. Caerulea doesnt contain alot of Harmaline alkaloids...

But, then i stumbled upon a paper from undergraduate chem students from Iowa. They are making extractions on both Incarnata and Caerulea, and thus confirming that in their Caerulea was actually the genus wich contained higher, much higher levels of harmine than Incarnata genus.

Here is the paper i stumbled upon.On the 8th page of the .pdf there is a table with the numbers for the alkaloid concentrations in both genuses :

Harmala alkaloids analysis in Passioflora / undergraduate students paper

Anyway, my friends grandpa have much of Caerulea dry foliage.So taking this paper in mind he was wandering of a best way to extract some ammount of harmalas..any help ?

i wanted to hear opinion from people with more experience, people which have extracted from different plant sources.


thanks in advance guys

 

[nen888]

..thanks for the paper Ambivalent!
..have read that P. caeurulea also contains alkaloid chrysin (Best of Entheogen Review 1992-99p.83 (chrysin is also found in Oroxylum indicum or Indian trumpetflower, & Honeycomb in small amounts..
..reported anxiolytic but not much data, anti-inflammitory)..

..also have read that P. edulis fruit pulp contains more harmala alkaloids than incarnata (like up to 1%..searching now, damn i didn't bookmark it!)..
oh, & a lot of the calming effects of P. incarnata are attributed to the flavinoids...

 

[prottel]

The amount of harmine in Passiflora Caerulea according to that paper is ~0.1mg per gram of material. That is a yield of 0.01%
That is a very low amount of harmalas. Hardly worthy of extracting, at least if your after harmalas.

 

[nen888]

..ok, so far according to the wiki P. incarnata fruit is 0.25% alkaloid (not bad), but i know i've seen a higher edulis finding somewhere...
the thing about passifloras is they're so fast growing in their matched climates, and one can grow large amounts of material (incaranta actually likes frost, ulike
most spp.)..
..with around 500 species untested (& heaps of ethnopharmacological reports) there's sure to be a lot more of interest out there...

ps some flavinoids display reversable MAOI activity...

ps2.. E.R. reports caerulea effects pleasant & reasonable alkaloid content (p.84)

 

[Ambivalent]

The amount of harmine in Passiflora Caerulea according to that paper is ~0.1mg per gram of material. That is a yield of 0.01%
That is a very low amount of harmalas. Hardly worthy of extracting, at least if your after harmalas.

Yea but if you would have 5 meters vine growing near you, i think its a worthy source to try at least...if not it can be always used as enhancer in changa mix blends (Imo) .

If one would extract from caerulea, he would want to put as much as he can from the plant, as we concluded (lets say 500 g ) . What extraction method would you preffer for this task considering the big ammount dry foliage used and the small ammount of alkaloids expected ?





edit : thanks for the Dekorne paper Nen , i find it veery useful

 

[SnozzleBerry]

The amount of harmine in Passiflora Caerulea according to that paper is ~0.1mg per gram of material. That is a yield of 0.01%
That is a very low amount of harmalas. Hardly worthy of extracting, at least if your after harmalas.

Yea but if you would have 5 meters vine growing near you, i think its a worthy source to try at least...if not it can be always used as enhancer in changa mix blends (Imo) .

If one would extract from caerulea, he would want to put as much as he can from the plant, as we concluded (lets say 500 g ) . What extraction method would you preffer for this task considering the big ammount dry foliage used and the small ammount of alkaloids expected ?

500g * .0001 = .05g = 50mg = not worth it imo. Even as a "bulk" extraction, if everything goes perfectly you're looking at one vaped dose of harmalas or 1/4 - 1/6 a dose of oral harmalas, as the result of hours of work extracting.

Perhaps it'd be an interesting leaf to add to changa, I don't know.

 

[Ambivalent]

yea, i can see the math..and thanks for doing it for me

i didnt run through the figures actually...i was reading that incarnata was used for the Maoi capabilities, and later i found this paper which stated that P. Caerulea is even greater source of this alkaloids, but i guess i got over excited for the moment.

Further more, in the conclusion of the paper i posted above, they say that probably the harmalas are Not the psychoactive constituents of the Passiflora extracts, but its more likely to be the isoflavonoid Vitexin which is found in high concentrations(P. Incarnata).

Guys, thanks for the reply's i think i will keep an eye on this vine...but for now an alternative source will be searched. I will keep searching for syrian rue though as we have alot of spices imported from Turkey here where i live. Also i know they use the syrian rue as a temporary tatoo dye...

 

[nen888]

..0.01% is quite low, but a lone E.R report suggests a more workable amount..also the paper you posted seems to have found similarly low percentage in incarnata,
which is at odds with most published studies (perhaps their extraction methodology is flawed..?)
..re P. incarnata..for a small number of doses, 0.1% is not an unworkable amount..Gracie & Zarkov successfully used incarnata to activate tryptamines a few times (finding it very enjoyable), as have my friends & i a few times (300-500g per person liquid extracted & reduced down)..a few prefer it's qualities to either syrian rue or caapi..

..as i mentioned earlier some flavinoids are rMAOI-inhibitors of similar strength to harmine..so the reports are this plant works (despite frequent requotings of a few
chemical tests..)..
..underground rumour suggests some other passiflora's much higher in alkaloids...

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Would you mind sharing your P. incarnata extraction methodology? The one tek that used to be in the wiki proved to be unworkable for such a large number of people that it was removed. I'd love to see a method that works even reasonably well

 

[nen888]

..well, most of the time it was simply done ayahusca style..blended material (stem & leaf) in big pot with water, heated 3x40 mins, filtered several times through cheesecloth,
and reduced to glass full per person (was very thick/viscous)..took slightly longer than rue or caapi to work, but worked nicely (with tryptamine freebase extract)..

..one time i basified a bottle of the herbal alcohol tincture, extracted with dichloromethane, and evaporated to about 60mg of a soft red/golden translucent 'crystaline' material..upon smoking i would describe it's effects (a single dose) as visionary and yummilly anxiety relieving..duration approx 40mins..(in my golden youth, sigh!)

..Gracie & Zarkov used ayahusca method & reduced to vapourizable gunk which elicited MAOI effects..

..Sweedish 1960s paper ("partition co-effecicents of p. incarnata" -will search), which found good harmala content (incl. harmaline) used, from memory, petroleum ether as extraction solvent..

sorry this not real tekky, but this was in my 20s...

i'm sure someone could easily devise a better method, ps i think there's more 'active' in there than the harmalas...

 

[nen888]

..this could help devise a better extraction tek for p. incarnata:
partition coefficients of ether extractable passionflower alkaloids

with regards to the extraction methodology in the paper found by ambivalent http://www.docstoc.com/docs/33270590/Harmala-Alkaloidssee p.21-22
..i doubt this would be an efficent extraction of alkaloids in the plant...

 

[nen888]

..the reason the above mentioned paper would not have been a good measure of the alkaloid content is that only 2 X 5 minute 'washings' of plant
material in dilute acetic acid were done..so this low percentage is not to be taken as really how much is in the plant..

300-400 grams dried P. incarnata (boil X3) was sufficient to orally activate freebase tryptamines (see above + Gracie & Zarkov)
fresh weight may need to be more..
much of the sedative effect is (in literature) attributed to the flavinoids..some flavinoids have been shown to be MAO inhibitors as strong as harmine..

..a few other Passifloras are known, through ethnomedical usage or underground reports, to be sedative or psychoactive,
i might start a Passiflora thread soon...

 

[nen888]

..there are a couple of reports (incl. E.R.) of P. caerulea having strong sedative/anti-depressant effects..

the report on wiki of 0.25% alkaloid in P. edulis (common passionfruit) fruit was wrong (it is a saponic alkaloid present in these amounts),
most tests of P. edulis fruit found approx 0.02% harmine, harmaline, harman, but i don't know the extraction methodology..
a varfiety of P. edulis is used as an anxiolytic and sedative in west Africa..it is interbred sometimes with P. incarnata to make passionfruit
plants more tolerant to cold & frost conditions..
.

 

[wira]

By the way, chrysin is a flavonoid, not an alkaloid; it is anticonvulsant and anxiolytic, and also acts as an MAOI and benzodiazepine (BZ) receptor agonist.

 

[wira]

Nen, you mentioned to me - and here too - that Gracie and Zarkov had published an article discussing their successful use of Passiflora incarnata with DMT in an orally-consumed brew, as well as the smoked extract experiments I already knew about. I've so far been unable to find anything of theirs that discusses this. Can anyone provide a link to the relevant article, or confirm that such an article definitely does exist? (I don't mean "Three Beta-Carboline Containing Plants as Potentiators of Synthetic DMT and Other Indole Psychedelics", which only discusses smoking the plant extracts prior to smoking DMT.)

 

[nen888]

..searching wira, may have been in Psychedelic Illuminations magazine 1990-91..i would not have had the idea to try boiling up 300 or more grams of the stuff if i hadn't gotten it from them..one nexian actually knows them, so there's that possible avenue of enquiry too..
thanks for the info. on chrysin..do you know if it's found in reasonable amounts in other plants..?
.

 

[jamie]

as far as I know gracie and zarkov did not use passionflower to orally activate DMT. They only found it strong enough to potentiate smoked DMT.

 

[nen888]

..the article i'm recalling described three series of experiments in the '80s:
1) potentiation of smoked tryptamines with caapi, harmala & passiflora extract
2) potentiation of cubensis mushrooms with above (by smoking exxtracts..leading to what Gracie & Zarkov called the "voice in the head" phenomenon
3) oral activation of dmt freebase with caapi, harmamla and passiflora

..whatever the state of my memory, i would highly recommend trying p. incarnata in this way..
it has worked in 5-6 people (myself included), usually takes longer than caapi or rue to work..
i don't have any of my old papers/refs, so it's a bit slow for me tracking it down...

 

[jamie]

^that gracie and zarkov paper is on dexoy.

 

[nen888]

..thanks fractal..it was truly groundbreaking at the time..Three Beta-Carboline Containing Plants As Potentiators of Synthetic DMT and Other Indole Psychedelics,
but no oral passiflora..
they said ayahuasca analogues was one of their next lines of research, so i'm wondering if i read a later paper..
hmm..maybe a mistake has lead to an accidental discovery..at least one friend (on 500grams p. incarnata + freebase dmt) thought it preferable in some ways to caapi or rue..more 'anti-depressant' as they describe the passionflower high in the above paper..
i would say, compared to the other harmala plants, it 'makes the visions even more colorful'..
.

(hopefully none if this information will result in the increased prohibition of such a lovely vine)