Help an Alchemical brother out, plz

[Nope]

Short back story:

I am a veteran traveler of both time and space. I have successfully opened my own plant based Stargate based on info I acquired here, thanks to all you happy helpful spirits. That said, I am not a kid or "just looking to get high", however, I do have a question maybe someone out there can help me with.

LSD. What plants contain this? Do I really need to culture my own potentially deadly batch of ergo fungus? I found that recipe in the AC with morning glory seeds but I honestly could not be less interested in LSA or any other RC that's hot with the kids right now.

Glass wear can be gotten, I am functionally patient and able to follow directions to the letter as well as smart enough to research steps to make sure some Internet screwball isn't going to make me produce some purple staining smoke to ruin my kitchen or something.

Any info would be awesome, PM me if your magic is too strong for the general public.

A thousand generations of blessings on any and all who read this.

 

[concombres]

I would argue that LSA is indeed a psychedelic drug. I once consumed the tea of 8 Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds. I toasted them a little over an open flame enough to burn off the fuzz and char the outside a little. I then crushed them up and made a tea, filtering off the solids. About 20 minutes in, I could feel nausea. At about 40 minutes, I started to feel psychedelic effects and the nausea was intense enough to make me puke. By one hour, I started getting closed eye visuals in the form of mild geometric patterns and fractals and puked again. Shortly after, I puked again. After the third purge, there was nothing left in my stomach and I dry heaved periodically and often. The peak at about T+1.5 was an intense body load and minor open eye visuals.

It was a horrible experience, but I would most definitely call it a psychedelic. Of course, others experiences may vary.

This right here is why I will never drink Aya. Vomiting while tripping is the worst thing I've ever done, I am not into heavy body highs and mild visions.

I want peak visions that stabilize and are work-with-able, such as the peak of a Flash or when you start approaching Heroic doses.

I am yet to experiment with it, but I am fairly certain that the nausea and vomiting from Ayahuasca can be mitigated by moving to pharmahuasca and adding a strong 5-HT3 antagonist such as ondansetron. I am in the same boat. I have tried Ayahuasca twice and pharmahuasca once. The trips always start out great but then when the nausea and vomiting set in, the trip turns very dark. With Aya, I get 10-15 minutes of enjoyment. pharmahuasca being more controled as in waiting 20 minutes after taking harmine to ingest DMT gives me 3-5 minutes of enjoyment. Next time, I plan to take ondansetron with harmine, wait 15 minutes and take the DMT. This should allow plenty of time for the MAOI and the 5-HT3 antagonist to be active, resulting in DMT making it's way to my brain without triggering 5-HT3 nausea.

How is ondasterone working for you? I have been working on a way to reduce nausea as much as possible with oral DMT the last year or so. I prefer purified harmalas dissolved in water + extremely clean mimosa brew over true pharma & done this way i have greatly reduced nausea for myself at the very least, but there is still a single purge & waves of nausea throughout the experience. Ondasterone may be just what is needed to finally eliminate it entirely but i am unsure. Part of the nausea i feel comes from motion sickness & thrown off equilibrium while the other part comes from 5ht3.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Hi, I don't mean to stray from your topic, but why did you choose the name "nope?"

btw no plants contain LSD, other than that toxic mold ergot which as you know is not really a plant.

I will go ahead and jump to the conclusion that no living PLANT in life as we know it would contain any functional amount of LSD

Some consume Hawaiian baby woodrose or morning glory seeds, or you can extract the lysergamide alkaloids from these plants and consume them, however lysergic acid and lysergic acid amide produce an intoxication which is far from the psychedelia produced by LSD, and in my opinion these compounds do not qualify as psychedelic, in fact, lysergic acid amide is scheduled as a sedative rather than a psychedelic. I consider consuming these compounds wasting valuable precursors, however, there are some who enjoy these natural lysergamide alkaloids.

-eg

Thank you EG (and everyone else) that was pretty much what I was wondering.

I have to say I can't see why I would need years of uni to perform one operation. I will resign myself to further research and hopefully one day I'll run across a wizard willing to share his tech. Til then I'll have to pursue a more shroomic path I suppose.

As I said I'm not just a kid looking to get high. If I'm bored it's in the "cosmic" sense. I could hop on through a plant wormhole anytime I want to, but with the mental makeup I have I require essentially perfect conditions, the stars being aligned, perfect setting, great week leading up to the event, with the result that I MIGHT activate that Stargate twice a year. Maybe.

What I'm doing is looking for an easier controlled dosage with more room to work in for purposes of my Hermetic/Alchemical practices. As within, so without, as they say.

LSD synthesis is far more complex than the synthesis of other tryptamine or phenethylamine psychedelics.

Honestly, years of study are necessary. Consider the following:

If you are using a method which requires Hydrazine and hydrazine hydrate you must know that these are both incredibly toxic, and each is capable of causing burns to the skin and irritation to the face and eyes. Also, the vapor of each of these compounds is highly irritating, and can cause severe damage to the liver and blood. These symptoms are not immediate, and symptoms may not show until many days after being exposed. hydrazine is also a very sensitive and highly explosive. This explosive action can be set off by seemingly innocuous items such as wood, certain types of stainless steel and even rust. If you are using a method which uses trifluoroacetic acid you must know that this compound produces highly exothermic reactions with bases and metals, particularly light metals, and can be a fire hazard. trifluoroacetic acid and it's vapor are corrosive and irritating and can cause burns to the skin and damage to the eyes. If you are using a work up using a work-up using sulfur trioxide you must be aware that this compound and it's vapours are highly irritating, this powerful dehydrating agent will burn organic materials, spilling on wood can be sufficient enough to start a fire. If using dimethylfirmamide (DMF) you must be aware that this compound can cause irritation to the skin and eyes, prolonged exposure causes damage to the liver. Another key compound, Diethylamine, has an irritating vapor and skin exposure should be avoided, this compound also has a very low flash point and can present hazards, diethylamine is used in every LSD synthesis. Some LSD synthesis methods even use Phosgene, which while effective is a fairly hazardous material. A single inhalation of Phosgene is sufficient to cause death, and since this compound is not irritating when it's inhaled, an individual could easily inhale a lethal amount of the compound without even so much as coughing. Symptoms can be immediate or delayed and are generally fatal.

LSD is fragile, and an understanding of the molecule itself may be essential for properly producing and storing it. For example, at position 8 where the diethylcarboxamido grouping is located, this grouping can be rotated in space, facing in the opposite direction, producing the inactive iso-LSD isomer. This occurs through a process which is known as "epimerization". (iso-LSD can be separated and converted back into LSD). The next vulnerable area exists between this 8-position and the aromatic ring, this is the site affected by light, specially presence of water or alcohol. When the molecule "breaks" at this site lumi-LSD is produced, another completely inactive compound.

The conditions for the synthesis of LSD must be heavily controlled, even regarding light, portions of the reactions must be conducted under a red light. You must also have fully functioning lab gear and the knowledge to use it. There can also be some chromatography processes involved which are fairly advanced...

I know this looks like a good deal of information, but I have not even scratched the surface. Synthesis discussion is not allowed, so I can not go into any greater detail or specifics regarding this matter, but trust me, learning the procedure on paper is only the first half of the battle.

There are modern methods which use safer chemicals, though Even with years of study it can be incredibly difficult to successfully and safely preform these procedures, hence Tim scully stating that owsley Stanley "showed him a lot of things he would have to figure out the hard way otherwise"... on paper, scully knew almost all you could know, however, in the lab, he was thankful for the guidance of an experienced LSD chemist.

Synthesis can be more of an art than a science, you must understand your reaction fully, you must know what to look for, and guide the reaction along, if something is not working right, you first must visually be able to recognize this, and second, have the knowledge to correct it, it can require some improvised skills and off the top of the head knowledge...then there are the dangers, you must know how to properly handle and dispose of all the chemicals you are using

I'm not saying that a person couldn't just bunker down and study until they figured it out, however this individual would find you can't just learn LSD synthesis and only LSD synthesis, you have to learn organic chemistry as a whole...

while there's nothing in shulgin's books that an individual with at least 3 years college organic chemistry (lab and lecture) couldn't pull off, the art of chemistry is a lifelong lesson, you never stop learning new things, it's also quite addictive, so the more you learn and understand the more you will want to learn.

Stick with growing mushrooms. I've seen individuals who I considered fairly slow and dense, who were able to successfully grow fungi. Anybody can do it, you don't even have to be very smart to pull it off, Hell, I had only skimmed through a single book, watched some youtube videos, and was able to successfully grow mushrooms via PF Tek...don't get me wrong, there are complex areas involved with cultivating cubensis mushrooms, though you really don't need to know or understand them to be successful.

Maybe you could learn chemistry, then start with easy synthesis work-ups like 2C-B or MDMA, and slowly work your way up to LSD as you grow in experience and knowledge...or just cultivate fungi.

Look into a compound called 1-propionyl-LSD, it's available as a research chemical, and is metabolized into LSD in vivo, and while some may challenge this assertion, I would like to remind them that when examining the specific way in which LSD docks into the 5-HT2A receptor the indole NH hydrogen bonds to serine 5.46. Which means that if any substitution was left attached to the indole rings nitrogen, such as an acetyl or propionyl grouping, that the molecule would not properly dock into the receptor site. Any way, 1P-LSD is available as a research chemical, and is nearly indistinguishable from LSD itself when consumed. This may be a more reasonable option in your case.


-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

I would argue that LSA is indeed a psychedelic drug. I once consumed the tea of 8 Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds. I toasted them a little over an open flame enough to burn off the fuzz and char the outside a little. I then crushed them up and made a tea, filtering off the solids. About 20 minutes in, I could feel nausea. At about 40 minutes, I started to feel psychedelic effects and the nausea was intense enough to make me puke. By one hour, I started getting closed eye visuals in the form of mild geometric patterns and fractals and puked again. Shortly after, I puked again. After the third purge, there was nothing left in my stomach and I dry heaved periodically and often. The peak at about T+1.5 was an intense body load and minor open eye visuals.

It was a horrible experience, but I would most definitely call it a psychedelic. Of course, others experiences may vary.

It's up for debate.

Lysergic acid and lysergic acid amide are defiantly psychoactive, though I don't see them as psychedelic. They are NOTHING like LSD or any other classic psychedelic, they don't even come close. These compounds produce an intoxicated state, with body distress, that's about it, there are none of the beautiful open eye visuals, there is no flight of introspection or deep intellectual thought, there's no psychological or spiritual reorganization, no feelings of oneness with the universe, and there are no real hallucinations. In my mind, these compounds are far from being psychedelic, and when it comes to comparison with LSD, these compounds do not belong any where near the same category.

Any way, it's up for debate, and ultimately it's quite subjective.

-eg

 

[Aum_Shanti]

there are none of the beautiful open eye visuals, there is no flight of introspection or deep intellectual thought, there's no psychological or spiritual reorganization, no feelings of oneness with the universe, and there are no real hallucinations.

Lol, actually for me, it had all these mentioned features...except for "real hallucinations", which are IMHO only attainable on nightshades. Although I have to say, that the visuals definitely are not comparable to something like DMT.
E.g. I had my first OEV on LSA, that's why I still remember it (on the wood in the fire there was a perfectly miniature moon village, with such detail and plasticity...I was just in awe...).
It probably is a substance also quite depended on a personal metabolism, or dosage, or ...? I don't know.
There also seem to be a few other substances which seem to have a very wide spectrum of how they effect people.

 

[dreamer042]

growing cacti certainly is an easy and also satisfying job.

Grow some shrooms already.

^^^

Also, I hear LSD plants can be found growing near large festival bass stacks.

It's a little known fact that due to environmental pressures, the natural habitat of LSD has moved from woodland drum circles to arid region Funktion One stacks.

Well, all you geneticists, get to crackin`.

Harvard scientists to make LSD factory from microbes

Anyone got any contacts at Harvard that could help us "leak" this little project for the betterment of humanity? :twisted:



P.S. - And just remember, by definition, in an infinite universe, not only is there a planet where the elusive LSD tree grows, there are also planets with lysergic oceans and crystalline "acid" rain.

Someone really needs to get the intergalactic mycellial matrix to pony up the hyperlight drive plans already.

 

[syberdelic]

I would argue that LSA is indeed a psychedelic drug. I once consumed the tea of 8 Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds. I toasted them a little over an open flame enough to burn off the fuzz and char the outside a little. I then crushed them up and made a tea, filtering off the solids. About 20 minutes in, I could feel nausea. At about 40 minutes, I started to feel psychedelic effects and the nausea was intense enough to make me puke. By one hour, I started getting closed eye visuals in the form of mild geometric patterns and fractals and puked again. Shortly after, I puked again. After the third purge, there was nothing left in my stomach and I dry heaved periodically and often. The peak at about T+1.5 was an intense body load and minor open eye visuals.

It was a horrible experience, but I would most definitely call it a psychedelic. Of course, others experiences may vary.

This right here is why I will never drink Aya. Vomiting while tripping is the worst thing I've ever done, I am not into heavy body highs and mild visions.

I want peak visions that stabilize and are work-with-able, such as the peak of a Flash or when you start approaching Heroic doses.

I am yet to experiment with it, but I am fairly certain that the nausea and vomiting from Ayahuasca can be mitigated by moving to pharmahuasca and adding a strong 5-HT3 antagonist such as ondansetron. I am in the same boat. I have tried Ayahuasca twice and pharmahuasca once. The trips always start out great but then when the nausea and vomiting set in, the trip turns very dark. With Aya, I get 10-15 minutes of enjoyment. pharmahuasca being more controled as in waiting 20 minutes after taking harmine to ingest DMT gives me 3-5 minutes of enjoyment. Next time, I plan to take ondansetron with harmine, wait 15 minutes and take the DMT. This should allow plenty of time for the MAOI and the 5-HT3 antagonist to be active, resulting in DMT making it's way to my brain without triggering 5-HT3 nausea.

How is ondasterone working for you? I have been working on a way to reduce nausea as much as possible with oral DMT the last year or so. I prefer purified harmalas dissolved in water + extremely clean mimosa brew over true pharma & done this way i have greatly reduced nausea for myself at the very least, but there is still a single purge & waves of nausea throughout the experience. Ondasterone may be just what is needed to finally eliminate it entirely but i am unsure. Part of the nausea i feel comes from motion sickness & thrown off equilibrium while the other part comes from 5ht3.

I am currently battling intestinal ulcers, kidney stones, and anxiety. I have been told to take a break from drugs even though the ones I use are fairly benign by my partner, doctors, and the hyperspace entities. And to top it off, the medications I'm taking for anxiety contraindicate me from any kind of MAOI so Aya/pharmahuasca are out for a while.

I can say that Meclizine works great for eliminating the motion sickness induced by harmalas and is not contraindicated as Benadryl (diphenhydramine) is. I took a double dose of it 30 minutes before consuming 250mg harmine HCl and got no motion sickness. I still noticed my vision being out of synch with my equilibrium, but it created no nausea. Without medicating, I will start feeling nauseous by riding in the back seat of a car for 10-15 minutes, so this is a huge improvement.

I haven't had a chance to try throwing Ondansetron into the pharmahuasca mixture, but it works wonders for eliminating the nausea from my ulcers. 4mg will make it tolerable so that I can function and 8 mg will altogether wipe it out to where I can temporarily forget that I have ulcers. By comparing the nausea I get from the ulcers to what I get from oral DMT, I think an Ondansetron dose of 1mg/4mg DMT would be an appropriate place to start. 25mg is in line with chemotherapy treatment and 100mg oral DMT makes me feel completely poisoned AKA chemotherapy. If someone else doesn't try it first, I'll definitely post about it after trying. This will probably be towards the end of the year or possibly next year.

 

[Nope]

Hi, I don't mean to stray from your topic, but why did you choose the name "nope?"

btw no plants contain LSD, other than that toxic mold ergot which as you know is not really a plant.

I will go ahead and jump to the conclusion that no living PLANT in life as we know it would contain any functional amount of LSD

Some consume Hawaiian baby woodrose or morning glory seeds, or you can extract the lysergamide alkaloids from these plants and consume them, however lysergic acid and lysergic acid amide produce an intoxication which is far from the psychedelia produced by LSD, and in my opinion these compounds do not qualify as psychedelic, in fact, lysergic acid amide is scheduled as a sedative rather than a psychedelic. I consider consuming these compounds wasting valuable precursors, however, there are some who enjoy these natural lysergamide alkaloids.

-eg

Thank you EG (and everyone else) that was pretty much what I was wondering.

I have to say I can't see why I would need years of uni to perform one operation. I will resign myself to further research and hopefully one day I'll run across a wizard willing to share his tech. Til then I'll have to pursue a more shroomic path I suppose.

As I said I'm not just a kid looking to get high. If I'm bored it's in the "cosmic" sense. I could hop on through a plant wormhole anytime I want to, but with the mental makeup I have I require essentially perfect conditions, the stars being aligned, perfect setting, great week leading up to the event, with the result that I MIGHT activate that Stargate twice a year. Maybe.

What I'm doing is looking for an easier controlled dosage with more room to work in for purposes of my Hermetic/Alchemical practices. As within, so without, as they say.

LSD synthesis is far more complex than the synthesis of other tryptamine or phenethylamine psychedelics.

Honestly, years of study are necessary. Consider the following:

If you are using a method which requires Hydrazine and hydrazine hydrate you must know that these are both incredibly toxic, and each is capable of causing burns to the skin and irritation to the face and eyes. Also, the vapor of each of these compounds is highly irritating, and can cause severe damage to the liver and blood. These symptoms are not immediate, and symptoms may not show until many days after being exposed. hydrazine is also a very sensitive and highly explosive. This explosive action can be set off by seemingly innocuous items such as wood, certain types of stainless steel and even rust. If you are using a method which uses trifluoroacetic acid you must know that this compound produces highly exothermic reactions with bases and metals, particularly light metals, and can be a fire hazard. trifluoroacetic acid and it's vapor are corrosive and irritating and can cause burns to the skin and damage to the eyes. If you are using a work up using a work-up using sulfur trioxide you must be aware that this compound and it's vapours are highly irritating, this powerful dehydrating agent will burn organic materials, spilling on wood can be sufficient enough to start a fire. If using dimethylfirmamide (DMF) you must be aware that this compound can cause irritation to the skin and eyes, prolonged exposure causes damage to the liver. Another key compound, Diethylamine, has an irritating vapor and skin exposure should be avoided, this compound also has a very low flash point and can present hazards, diethylamine is used in every LSD synthesis. Some LSD synthesis methods even use Phosgene, which while effective is a fairly hazardous material. A single inhalation of Phosgene is sufficient to cause death, and since this compound is not irritating when it's inhaled, an individual could easily inhale a lethal amount of the compound without even so much as coughing. Symptoms can be immediate or delayed and are generally fatal.

LSD is fragile, and an understanding of the molecule itself may be essential for properly producing and storing it. For example, at position 8 where the diethylcarboxamido grouping is located, this grouping can be rotated in space, facing in the opposite direction, producing the inactive iso-LSD isomer. This occurs through a process which is known as "epimerization". (iso-LSD can be separated and converted back into LSD). The next vulnerable area exists between this 8-position and the aromatic ring, this is the site affected by light, specially presence of water or alcohol. When the molecule "breaks" at this site lumi-LSD is produced, another completely inactive compound.

The conditions for the synthesis of LSD must be heavily controlled, even regarding light, portions of the reactions must be conducted under a red light. You must also have fully functioning lab gear and the knowledge to use it. There can also be some chromatography processes involved which are fairly advanced...

I know this looks like a good deal of information, but I have not even scratched the surface. Synthesis discussion is not allowed, so I can not go into any greater detail or specifics regarding this matter, but trust me, learning the procedure on paper is only the first half of the battle.

There are modern methods which use safer chemicals, though Even with years of study it can be incredibly difficult to successfully and safely preform these procedures, hence Tim scully stating that owsley Stanley "showed him a lot of things he would have to figure out the hard way otherwise"... on paper, scully knew almost all you could know, however, in the lab, he was thankful for the guidance of an experienced LSD chemist.

Synthesis can be more of an art than a science, you must understand your reaction fully, you must know what to look for, and guide the reaction along, if something is not working right, you first must visually be able to recognize this, and second, have the knowledge to correct it, it can require some improvised skills and off the top of the head knowledge...then there are the dangers, you must know how to properly handle and dispose of all the chemicals you are using

I'm not saying that a person couldn't just bunker down and study until they figured it out, however this individual would find you can't just learn LSD synthesis and only LSD synthesis, you have to learn organic chemistry as a whole...

while there's nothing in shulgin's books that an individual with at least 3 years college organic chemistry (lab and lecture) couldn't pull off, the art of chemistry is a lifelong lesson, you never stop learning new things, it's also quite addictive, so the more you learn and understand the more you will want to learn.

Stick with growing mushrooms. I've seen individuals who I considered fairly slow and dense, who were able to successfully grow fungi. Anybody can do it, you don't even have to be very smart to pull it off, Hell, I had only skimmed through a single book, watched some youtube videos, and was able to successfully grow mushrooms via PF Tek...don't get me wrong, there are complex areas involved with cultivating cubensis mushrooms, though you really don't need to know or understand them to be successful.

Maybe you could learn chemistry, then start with easy synthesis work-ups like 2C-B or MDMA, and slowly work your way up to LSD as you grow in experience and knowledge...or just cultivate fungi.

Look into a compound called 1-propionyl-LSD, it's available as a research chemical, and is metabolized into LSD in vivo, and while some may challenge this assertion, I would like to remind them that when examining the specific way in which LSD docks into the 5-HT2A receptor the indole NH hydrogen bonds to serine 5.46. Which means that if any substitution was left attached to the indole rings nitrogen, such as an acetyl or propionyl grouping, that the molecule would not properly dock into the receptor site. Any way, 1P-LSD is available as a research chemical, and is nearly indistinguishable from LSD itself when consumed. This may be a more reasonable option in your case.


-eg

thank you Eg! It's great to know these things, I'll chart LSD invocation up on my "known unknowns" list and maybe build on it later down the line.

I'm interested to hear you say mdma would be such a simpler compound, I guess you mean easier as in still having a lab and proper know how. I looked into it a bit after the last time someone tried to give me some, it was like grey with blue flecks in it, I said isn't it supposed to be like a brownish/honey/caramel? He gave me some off the top of his head piece about how it meant they had interrupted the process early but it was still totally good. Needless to say I did not participate but it did make me interested in obtaining my own.

I can only assume I need some kind of valid licence to order actual research chems?

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

there are none of the beautiful open eye visuals, there is no flight of introspection or deep intellectual thought, there's no psychological or spiritual reorganization, no feelings of oneness with the universe, and there are no real hallucinations.

Lol, actually for me, it had all these mentioned features...except for "real hallucinations", which are IMHO only attainable on nightshades. Although I have to say, that the visuals definitely are not comparable to something like DMT.
E.g. I had my first OEV on LSA, that's why I still remember it (on the wood in the fire there was a perfectly miniature moon village, with such detail and plasticity...I was just in awe...).
It probably is a substance also quite depended on a personal metabolism, or dosage, or ...? I don't know.
There also seem to be a few other substances which seem to have a very wide spectrum of how they effect people.

I don't see lysergic acid amide or lysergic acid as psychedelic. I don't think they even come close. Even when I consumed these compounds in their pure state, it was an intoxication with body distress, nothing psychedelic was experienced.

If you took lysergic acid or LSA, then the next week took LSD, and were asked to compare the experiences, could you really be comfortable with saying those compounds belong in the same catagory?

...I would say that compared to mescaline, psilocybin, LSD, or even 2C-B, or any true psychedelic, that LSA and lysergic acid doesn't even come anywhere near the category these compounds are in.

LA-111, ergine, d-lysergamide. This is an active compound and has been established as a major component in morning glory seeds. It was assayed for human activity, by Albert Hofmann in self-trials back in 1947, well before this was known to be a natural compound. An i.m. administration of a 500 microgram dose led to a tired, dreamy state with an inability to maintain clear thoughts. After a short period of sleep, the effects were gone and normal baseline was recovered within five hours. Other observers have confirmed this clouding of consciousness leading to sleep. The epimer, inverted at C-8, is isoergine or d-isolysergamide, and is also a component of morning glory seeds. Hofmann tried a 2 milligram dose of this amide, and as with ergine, he experienced nothing but tiredness, apathy, and a feeling of emptiness. Both compounds are probably correctly dismissed as not being a contributor to the action of these seeds. It is important to note that ergine, as well as lysergic acid itself, is listed as a Schedule III drug in the Controlled Substances Act, as a depressant. This is, in all probability, a stratagem to control them as logical precursors to LSD. -shulgin ; TIHKAL

...the magic occurs when lysergic acid is subjected to a condensation reaction with diethylamine.

datura and the other tropane alkaloid containing delirium inducing plants cause hallucination where you are not aware you are hallucinating, for a example you will grab at objects that are not there, talk to people who are not there, smoke "phantom cigarettes", participate in situations and events which are entirely imagined, and so on...This is not what I meant by "true hallucination", this is what I would call delirium, it's a total malfunction of the mind, and is actually the antithesis I the phenomena to which I was referring.

Again, this is all debatable, I can only speak about what these compounds do to me. Though even Hofmann said LSA only produced "a dreamy state with an inability to maintain clear thoughts."

...which is what happens to me. A dreamy state with an inability to maintain clear thoughts, complete with body distress.

-eg

 

[Aum_Shanti]

If you took lysergic acid or LSA, then the next week took LSD, and were asked to compare the experiences, could you really be comfortable with saying those compounds belong in the same catagory?

The question is, what do you mean by category? They are certainly not as strong as LSD, I never claimed that. But, at least for me, they are certainly strongly psychedelic ("soul revealing" ).

My dosages, for fresh MGs:
10g light to common trip (only slight OEVs) and IMHO already quite a psychedelic mind state.
20g a real go, definitely psychedelic, OEVs.
20g++ are strong ones...

But as said, even the strong ones, certainly aren't the same as LSD strong ones, but the things you said above, I definitely all had on LSA. Surely the getting one with everything is rather a seldom experience on it, but I had it also. Other substances, e.g. like LSD or 5-MeO-DMT certainly are much more probable to deliver such a state.

But I also have to admit, that I'm aware, that my body seems sometimes to react quite differently than that of other people.
I also never extracted the pure LSA. So that could also make a difference. I really don't know. I can only state, how it is for me.
What I really do not like about them is the duration. That's also what I don't like of LSD.
It's just really hard to basically make sure you have a whole day in a proper setting.
That was much easier, when I was younger. Nowadays that's really hard to arrange...

 

[dreamer042]

I have to agree that I don't consider LSA a psychedelic either, I found the purified compound moar sedative than anything else. There is a caveat here however, Fresh Morning Glory and Hawaiian Baby Woodrose seeds are unquestionably psychedelic. Both extracted seeds and old seeds give the sleepy feeling and are not really psychedelic, but when fresh I would certainly put them in the same category as psilocybin, mescaline, and LSD, albiet unique in character and harder on the body.

We always want to attribute the psychedelic effects to LSA, but I think it's pretty clear that LSA alone is not the responsible compound here. The compounds responsible for the psychedelic effects seem to be pretty volatile and not able to survive the extraction, and the also seem to degrade in the whole seeds over time. The literature lists quite a plethora of potentially active compounds in the seeds, and with the volatile nature of whatever is causing the psychedelic effects it's also even possible the culprits are being destroyed in the act of analysis itself. My gut feeling is that it's likely a synergistic/combinatory/potentiation effect rather than any single compound that is responsible here.

But as you can see there are quite a few compounds of interest beyond Lysergic acid amide:

Seeds from the Hawaiian Baby Woodrose Argyreia nervosa of different origin and labelling and with allegedly high levels of ergot alkaloids were analysed using high performance liquid chromatography-high resolution mass spectrometry (HPLC-HRMS/MS) technique. Lysergic acid amide (LSA), ergometrine, lysergol/elymoclavine/setoclavine, chanoclavine, lysergic acid and their respective stereoisomers were identified as well as penniclavine and lysergic acid α-hydroxyethylamide. In addition, methylergometrine, methysergide, and lysergylalanine were detected, some high molecular weight ergot alkaloid derivatives and hydroxyalanine derived ergopeptide fragments were detected indicating the presence of ergopeptides in the seeds. The results of the study demonstrate that the content of ergot alkaloids in Argyreia nervosa seeds depends on the quality of the material.

Paulke, Alexander, et al. "Studies on the alkaloid composition of the Hawaiian Baby Woodrose Argyreia nervosa, a common legal high." Forensic science international 249 (2015): 281-293.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

Thanks dreamer. That's really interesting. Didn't know that. I always thought, it's just the LSA. And now as it seems, the psychedelic effects do basically not come from LSA at all... (or only synergistically) :shock:

So I must correct myself: These effects I had on MGs, not LSA.
So I cannot claim by that, that LSA itself is psychedelic.
(I just thought it's the LSA)

E.g. this is my tek, which I mostly do, if it is of interest (which gives me little nausea, only motion sickness in the first 1-2h and seemingly keep the psychedelic effect):
I put the whole seeds in water. They will swell over time and get out of their shell. There is this gelatinous lubricant between the seedling and the shell which is IMHO that which makes sick mostly. By getting them out of the shell, you then have these swollen seedlings, that look like little elongated brains, which I then eat just like that. Not the best taste, a bit nutty. But OK with some OJ. (BTW: I throw away the water)

For me personally MGs are a must in the garden. So beautiful, no work, and in autumn you have plenty of seeds...I always have several yards of it along the fence...

Edit:
Interesting. In the german Wiki is stated that e.g. lysergol counts as one of the main psychoactive components of these plants. Active at 5-HT1B, 5-HT1D, 5-HT1F, 5-HT2A, Alpha-1 adrenergic, Alpha-2 adrenergic.
BTW: I really like the final sentence in the paper:

Nevertheless, the present study stimulates further research, as the pharmacological activity of Argyreia nervosa seeds is not completely understood and it seems likely that besides LSA and ergometrine other alkaloids may contribute to the pharmacological effects.

Edit2:
(Although quite offtopic, so please forgive me.)
I read quite some more stuff, and honestly, I get more and more the impression that LSA is actually a component in there which you rather actually wouldn't want to ingest from a trip perspective if you had the option. Fascinating.
IMHO also interesting the following post in another forum
(https://drugs-forum.com/threads/lsa-not-responsible-for-hbwr-effects.144191/)

From TIHKAL,

Ergonovine is a naturally occurring, water-soluble ergot alkaloid, found in both ergot preparations and in many species of morning glory seeds, and there are several reports of LSD-like action at oral levels of between two and ten milligrams. It has an important use in obstetrics, again as an oxytocic, at about a tenth of this dose. This pharmacological potential must be respected in psychopharmacological trials. The one-carbon homologue (the butanolamide rather than the propanolamide) is called methergine or methylergonovine. It is a synthetic ally and is orally effective as an oxytocic at a dosage of 200 micrograms. It also has an LSD-like action at ten times this level.

Although there are many other chemical treasures in the ergot fungal world, I would like to wrap this commentary up with a return to the topic of morning glory seeds. Four additional alkaloids of the ergot world must be acknowledged as being potentially participating factors in the MGS story. With each of these, the primary ergoline ring system is largely intact but the amide function is completely gone. The carboxyl group has been reduced to the alcohol to give elymoclavine. There is the related molecule present which is the isomer with the double bond moved to be conjugated with the aromatic ring; it is called lysergol. There is the same molecule but with a hydroxy group attached to the 8-position carbon atom (an ethyleneglycol!) ; it is called penniclavine. And lastly, that D-ring can actually be opened between the 5 and 6 positions, to give us a secondary amine tryptamine derivative, chanoclavine. To be completely anally retentive in this Ipomoea inventory, mention must be made of five alkaloids that are present in truly trace amounts, all of which have no oxygen atoms present whatsoever on that substitution on the ergoline 8-position. These are the 8-methyl isomers agroclavine, setoclavine, festuclavine and cycloclavine, and the methylene analogue lysergene. These structures in effect define absolute obscurity, and most probably do not contribute to the morning glory intoxication state. But the others, some present is sizable amounts, may someday help explain why the pharmacology of these seeds is so different than that of the major isolates, the ergines.

The alkaloid profile of Argyreia Nervosa is:
Ergine (LSA)-Dopamine Antagonism (The sedative profile makes sense)
ergometrine (ergonovine)-Partial HT agonism
Isoergine-No info
lysergene-HT2a Partial agonism/full antagonism
festu-clavine-HT2a Partial agonism/full antagonism
setoclavine-No info
isosetoclavine-No info
agroclavine-HT2a Partial agonism/full antagonism
elymoclavine-HT2a Partial agonism/full antagonism, Dopamine Agonism
Penni-clavine-No info
chanoclavine-I-Dopamine Agonism
chanoclavine-II-Dopamine Agonism
ergometrinine-No info
lysergic acid α-hydroxyethylamide
lysergol-HT2a Partial agonism/full antagonism, HT2C activity, HTF1 agonism,
molliclavine-No info
lysergol-HT2C activity, HTF1 agonism
isolysergic acid
lysergene-HT2a Partial agonism/full antagonism
setoclavine
isosetoclavine
isolysergol

Currently conducting more research at the moment, will update with more information.

“Dopamine receptor stimulating effects of chanoclavine analogues, tricyclic ergot alkaloids, in the brain.” Watanabe H, Somei M, Sekihara S, Nakagawa K, Yamada F. Jpn J Pharmacol. 1987 Dec;45(4):501-6 PMID: 3127619

“Alkaloid binding and activation of D2 dopamine receptors in cell culture.”
Larson BT, Harmon DL, Piper EL, Griffis LM, Bush LP. J Anim Sci. 1999 Apr;77(4):942-7PMID: 10328360

Chao, J.-M. and Der Marderosian, A. H. (1973), Ergoline alkaloidal constituents of hawaiian baby wood rose, argyreia nervosa (Burm. f.) bojer. Journal of Pharmaceutical Sciences, 62: 588–591. doi: 10.1002/jps.2600620409

“Naturally occurring clavines: antagonism/partial agonism at 5-HT2A receptors and antagonism at alpha 1-adrenoceptors in blood vessels.” Pertz H. Planta Med. 1996 Oct;62(5):387-92. PMID: 8923801

“Ergometrine--a partial agonist at 5-HT receptors in the uterus isolated from the oestrogen-primed rat.” Hollingsworth M, Edwards D, Miller M. Eur J Pharmacol. 1988 Dec 6;158(1-2):79-84.
PMID: 3220119

“Cell-specific coupling of the cloned human 5-HT1F receptor to multiple signal transduction pathways.” Adham N, Borden LA, Schechter LE, Gustafson EL, Cochran TL, Vaysse PJ, Weinshank RL, Branchek TA. Naunyn Schmiedebergs Arch Pharmacol. 1993 Dec;348(6):566-75.
PMID: 8133900

“Effects of the ergot alkaloid elymoclavine on the level and turnover of biogenic monoamines in the rat brain” Petkov VD, Konstantinova E. Arch Int Pharmacodyn Ther. 1986 May;281(1):22-34. PMID: 2428322

 

[downwardsfromzero]

All I would add here is that, quite a few years ago, HBWR seeds provided me with a spiritual experience that was most definitely psychedelic.

The prior night I had been drinking brandy . I chewed and swallowed a few seeds largely on a whim, after searing off the hairy coat with a piece of hot charcoal. Soon afterwards I fell asleep. I awoke shortly after sunrise. This was at midsummer so I'd been asleep for three or four hours. It took me a while to work out what was going on because at first I thought it was just a hangover.

The experience proper began only after (induced) vomiting - on what seemed like the advice of the plant itself. The neon-electric zingyness of LSD was all but absent, although there was a fractal overlay with eyes open. The overall feel was more earthy and organic. A wise, stern-but-kind voice within gave me most useful advice for several hours. This also contrasted with the 8 hours solid 'LMAO' that LSD so often provides. The divinatory use of this type of material makes absolute sense.

I count this among the more significant entheogenic experiences of my life.

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

Hi, I don't mean to stray from your topic, but why did you choose the name "nope?"

btw no plants contain LSD, other than that toxic mold ergot which as you know is not really a plant.

I will go ahead and jump to the conclusion that no living PLANT in life as we know it would contain any functional amount of LSD

Some consume Hawaiian baby woodrose or morning glory seeds, or you can extract the lysergamide alkaloids from these plants and consume them, however lysergic acid and lysergic acid amide produce an intoxication which is far from the psychedelia produced by LSD, and in my opinion these compounds do not qualify as psychedelic, in fact, lysergic acid amide is scheduled as a sedative rather than a psychedelic. I consider consuming these compounds wasting valuable precursors, however, there are some who enjoy these natural lysergamide alkaloids.

-eg

Thank you EG (and everyone else) that was pretty much what I was wondering.

I have to say I can't see why I would need years of uni to perform one operation. I will resign myself to further research and hopefully one day I'll run across a wizard willing to share his tech. Til then I'll have to pursue a more shroomic path I suppose.

As I said I'm not just a kid looking to get high. If I'm bored it's in the "cosmic" sense. I could hop on through a plant wormhole anytime I want to, but with the mental makeup I have I require essentially perfect conditions, the stars being aligned, perfect setting, great week leading up to the event, with the result that I MIGHT activate that Stargate twice a year. Maybe.

What I'm doing is looking for an easier controlled dosage with more room to work in for purposes of my Hermetic/Alchemical practices. As within, so without, as they say.

LSD synthesis is far more complex than the synthesis of other tryptamine or phenethylamine psychedelics.

Honestly, years of study are necessary. Consider the following:

If you are using a method which requires Hydrazine and hydrazine hydrate you must know that these are both incredibly toxic, and each is capable of causing burns to the skin and irritation to the face and eyes. Also, the vapor of each of these compounds is highly irritating, and can cause severe damage to the liver and blood. These symptoms are not immediate, and symptoms may not show until many days after being exposed. hydrazine is also a very sensitive and highly explosive. This explosive action can be set off by seemingly innocuous items such as wood, certain types of stainless steel and even rust. If you are using a method which uses trifluoroacetic acid you must know that this compound produces highly exothermic reactions with bases and metals, particularly light metals, and can be a fire hazard. trifluoroacetic acid and it's vapor are corrosive and irritating and can cause burns to the skin and damage to the eyes. If you are using a work up using a work-up using sulfur trioxide you must be aware that this compound and it's vapours are highly irritating, this powerful dehydrating agent will burn organic materials, spilling on wood can be sufficient enough to start a fire. If using dimethylfirmamide (DMF) you must be aware that this compound can cause irritation to the skin and eyes, prolonged exposure causes damage to the liver. Another key compound, Diethylamine, has an irritating vapor and skin exposure should be avoided, this compound also has a very low flash point and can present hazards, diethylamine is used in every LSD synthesis. Some LSD synthesis methods even use Phosgene, which while effective is a fairly hazardous material. A single inhalation of Phosgene is sufficient to cause death, and since this compound is not irritating when it's inhaled, an individual could easily inhale a lethal amount of the compound without even so much as coughing. Symptoms can be immediate or delayed and are generally fatal.

LSD is fragile, and an understanding of the molecule itself may be essential for properly producing and storing it. For example, at position 8 where the diethylcarboxamido grouping is located, this grouping can be rotated in space, facing in the opposite direction, producing the inactive iso-LSD isomer. This occurs through a process which is known as "epimerization". (iso-LSD can be separated and converted back into LSD). The next vulnerable area exists between this 8-position and the aromatic ring, this is the site affected by light, specially presence of water or alcohol. When the molecule "breaks" at this site lumi-LSD is produced, another completely inactive compound.

The conditions for the synthesis of LSD must be heavily controlled, even regarding light, portions of the reactions must be conducted under a red light. You must also have fully functioning lab gear and the knowledge to use it. There can also be some chromatography processes involved which are fairly advanced...

I know this looks like a good deal of information, but I have not even scratched the surface. Synthesis discussion is not allowed, so I can not go into any greater detail or specifics regarding this matter, but trust me, learning the procedure on paper is only the first half of the battle.

There are modern methods which use safer chemicals, though Even with years of study it can be incredibly difficult to successfully and safely preform these procedures, hence Tim scully stating that owsley Stanley "showed him a lot of things he would have to figure out the hard way otherwise"... on paper, scully knew almost all you could know, however, in the lab, he was thankful for the guidance of an experienced LSD chemist.

Synthesis can be more of an art than a science, you must understand your reaction fully, you must know what to look for, and guide the reaction along, if something is not working right, you first must visually be able to recognize this, and second, have the knowledge to correct it, it can require some improvised skills and off the top of the head knowledge...then there are the dangers, you must know how to properly handle and dispose of all the chemicals you are using

I'm not saying that a person couldn't just bunker down and study until they figured it out, however this individual would find you can't just learn LSD synthesis and only LSD synthesis, you have to learn organic chemistry as a whole...

while there's nothing in shulgin's books that an individual with at least 3 years college organic chemistry (lab and lecture) couldn't pull off, the art of chemistry is a lifelong lesson, you never stop learning new things, it's also quite addictive, so the more you learn and understand the more you will want to learn.

Stick with growing mushrooms. I've seen individuals who I considered fairly slow and dense, who were able to successfully grow fungi. Anybody can do it, you don't even have to be very smart to pull it off, Hell, I had only skimmed through a single book, watched some youtube videos, and was able to successfully grow mushrooms via PF Tek...don't get me wrong, there are complex areas involved with cultivating cubensis mushrooms, though you really don't need to know or understand them to be successful.

Maybe you could learn chemistry, then start with easy synthesis work-ups like 2C-B or MDMA, and slowly work your way up to LSD as you grow in experience and knowledge...or just cultivate fungi.

Look into a compound called 1-propionyl-LSD, it's available as a research chemical, and is metabolized into LSD in vivo, and while some may challenge this assertion, I would like to remind them that when examining the specific way in which LSD docks into the 5-HT2A receptor the indole NH hydrogen bonds to serine 5.46. Which means that if any substitution was left attached to the indole rings nitrogen, such as an acetyl or propionyl grouping, that the molecule would not properly dock into the receptor site. Any way, 1P-LSD is available as a research chemical, and is nearly indistinguishable from LSD itself when consumed. This may be a more reasonable option in your case.


-eg

thank you Eg! It's great to know these things, I'll chart LSD invocation up on my "known unknowns" list and maybe build on it later down the line.

I'm interested to hear you say mdma would be such a simpler compound, I guess you mean easier as in still having a lab and proper know how. I looked into it a bit after the last time someone tried to give me some, it was like grey with blue flecks in it, I said isn't it supposed to be like a brownish/honey/caramel? He gave me some off the top of his head piece about how it meant they had interrupted the process early but it was still totally good. Needless to say I did not participate but it did make me interested in obtaining my own.

I can only assume I need some kind of valid licence to order actual research chems?

With MDMA it's just a simpler synthesis procedure.

MDMA should be translucent and crystalline.

If you live in the United states you can order research chemicals with nothing but a credit card, you do not need permits, or a license, or anything of that nature. However, if you are caught with one of these compounds, the authorities will likely assume that it is for human consumption making you amenable to analogue charges, so once you have received the compound you must treat it like a scheduled substance. (Or have a legitimate reason for being in possession of such a compound.)

Below is an excerpt from TIHKAL, it outlines the federal analogue act of 1986, and then shulgin offers some of his own insight on the matter.

(1) The Controlled Substance Analogue Drug Bill. This is contained within Public Law 99–570, the Controlled Substances Analogue Enforcement Act of 1986. This is the so-called “Designer Drug” bill which was intended to allow the prosecution of any act associated with an unscheduled drug, if that drug is analogous either in structure or in action to a scheduled drug, and if it is intended for use in man. Here is the exact wording of this amendment:
(32)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), the term ‘controlled substance analogue’ means a substance—
(i) the chemical structure of which is substantially similar to the chemical structure of a controlled substance in Schedule I or II;
(ii) which has a stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system that is substantially similar to or greater than the stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system of a controlled substance in Schedule I or II; or
(iii) with respect to a particular person, which such person represents or intends to have a stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogenic effect on the central nervous system that is substantially similar to or greater than the stimulant, depressant, or hallucinogen effect on the central nervous system of a controlled substance in schedule I or II.
(B) Such term does not include—
(i) a controlled substance;
(ii) any substance for which there is an approved new drug application;
(iii) with respect to a particular person any substance, if an exemption is in effect for investigational use, for that person, under section 505 of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 355) to the extent conduct with respect to such substance is pursuant to such exemption; or
(iv) any substance to the extent not intended for human consumption before such an exemption takes effect with respect to that substance.
SEC. 203. A controlled substance analogue shall, to the extent intended for human consumption, be treated, for purposes of this title and title III as a controlled substance in Schedule I.
This is the exact wording of the law, and I have discovered that the more times I read it the more convinced I become that, whatever the original intent might have been, it was structured in a way to promote vagueness. I have written elsewhere about the rhetorical nightmare of a double disclaimer, “substantially similar.” “Similar” means “pretty much the same.” “Substantially identical” would means “pretty much the same.” But what does “substantially similar” mean? I like the analogy of seeing two cut glass shakers in the center of the fancy table, one with small holes in the silver screw-down cap containing salt, and the other with slightly larger holes containing pepper. Are these two items substantially similar? If you happen to be a collector of antique crystal glassware, these items are completely identical. If you happen to need to add a condiment to your entree these items are totally different. You must know whose eyes are being looked through to approach the question of “substantial similarity.” At a trial a few years ago in Southern California the issue was settled once and for all for a confused jury when a forensic chemist gave an expert opinion that two things were substantially similar when they were greater than 50% identical. Is the right hand more than 50% identical to the right foot? This opinion was patently absurd.
-shulgin;TIHKAL

-eg

 

[entheogenic-gnosis]

All I would add here is that, quite a few years ago, HBWR seeds provided me with a spiritual experience that was most definitely psychedelic.

The prior night I had been drinking brandy . I chewed and swallowed a few seeds largely on a whim, after searing off the hairy coat with a piece of hot charcoal. Soon afterwards I fell asleep. I awoke shortly after sunrise. This was at midsummer so I'd been asleep for three or four hours. It took me a while to work out what was going on because at first I thought it was just a hangover.

The experience proper began only after (induced) vomiting - on what seemed like the advice of the plant itself. The neon-electric zingyness of LSD was all but absent, although there was a fractal overlay with eyes open. The overall feel was more earthy and organic. A wise, stern-but-kind voice within gave me most useful advice for several hours. This also contrasted with the 8 hours solid 'LMAO' that LSD so often provides. The divinatory use of this type of material makes absolute sense.

I count this among the more significant entheogenic experiences of my life.

Would it be fair to label them as "entheogenic" rather than "psychedelic"?

It seems they are entheogenic, or they can be. ...but psychedelic? I'm still having some trouble there.

( Again, this is up for debate, I do not mean to discount anybody's experiences or opinions, these are just my personal feelings on the matter. )

-eg

 

[pitubo]

Please people, try to maintain a little more quoting sanity. Thanks.