• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

How do drugs increase serotonin levels in the brain?

Migrated topic.
G

g13juggalo

Rising Star
Most psychedelics give their effects by increasing the levels of serotonin in the brain, don't they?
I'm just curious, as to how they do this.
Do all psychedelics do it the same way, or do they do it in different ways?
Thanks.
 
Actually, they imitate serotonin, rather than increasing the amount of it. Not all serotonin receptor sites are activated/turned off by every tryptamine psychedelic, but many are. When you take psilocyin, for example, it floods your brain with a massive amount of psilocin, which many of your receptors mistake for serotonin.

Some pharmaceutical drugs do increase serotonin levels. They do this by either blocking the reuptake of serotonin back into your producer-cells(and thereby keeping them in the synapses where they are used), or stimulating those producer cells into producing more than usual.
 
Kartikay said:
Actually, they imitate serotonin, rather than increasing the amount of it. Not all serotonin receptor sites are activated/turned off by every tryptamine psychedelic, but many are. When you take psilocyin, for example, it floods your brain with a massive amount of psilocin, which many of your receptors mistake for serotonin.

Some pharmaceutical drugs do increase serotonin levels. They do this by either blocking the reuptake of serotonin back into your producer-cells(and thereby keeping them in the synapses where they are used), or stimulating those producer cells into producing more than usual.
Click to expand...
Ohh.
Does anyone have any idea if when the pineal gland is activated if it will increase the level of seratonin, or would it be something else that gives effects?
 
g13juggalo said:
Most psychedelics give their effects by increasing the levels of serotonin in the brain, don't they?
I'm just curious, as to how they do this.
Do all psychedelics do it the same way, or do they do it in different ways?
Thanks.
Click to expand...
it depends on a chemical.
psychoactives affect the synapses, being an agonists or antagonists.
it is true that most psychedelics affect serotonergic system, but it doesn't mean they increase serotonin levels.
for example, lsd affects 5-HT1A, 5-HT2A, 5-HT2C, 5-HT5A, 5-HT5B and 5-HT6 . It also affects dopaminergic system.
some drugs like mdma increases level of serotonin in synaptic slit. but that doesn't mean that organism starts producing more neurotransmitters.
 
g13juggalo said:
Ohh.
Does anyone have any idea if when the pineal gland is activated if it will increase the level of seratonin, or would it be something else that gives effects?
Click to expand...
what do you mean by saying activated?
it's active all the time and it rebuilds serotonin to melatonin. There's lot's of rumors about dmt being synthesized in the pineal gland, however nobody knows whether it's true or not. True is that our brain has all enzymes that are needed to synthesize dmt from precursors(l-tryptophan)
 
Dr. Strassman only speculated that the pineal gland is what produces DMT. He doesn't have any solid evidence; it was just a highly educated guess.

I'm not sure why no one has opened up a monkey's brain and taken a chunk of pineal gland to test for DMT.
 
benzyme said:
not likely

there's no evidence for INMT expression in the human pineal gland, 5-HIOMT is expressed there instead
Click to expand...
oh, okay.
but it should be somewhere else in the brain (perhaps lymbic system?)
i've read something about an increased ammount of amine N-methyltransferase in psychiatric patients.
 
I've been doing a bit of reading on this subject lately, inspired by the use of MAOI's in Aya/Pharma to potentiate the spice. I can't answer the main question and what I say is total speculation on my part but it's an interesting area, particularly when you realise how something like LSD actually gets into the brain by mimicking the structure of serotonin.

I know from my own experience how something like fluoxetine, an SSRI, can affect how substances act within my own body and I imagine that it's similar for others who use anti-depressants. Having never had DMT yet, I don't know how this will affect my experience when it comes but I look forward to seeing what some of the more knowledgeable members have to say about this subject.

As far as I can see, from what I've read at least, it's more to do with how certain drugs share similarities with serotonin rather than causing an increase by themselves. Perhaps it's the way the brain realises that it's allowed something it THINKS is serotonin and tries to generate more to account for the absense of what it perceived to be serotonin in an attempt to balance it's own chemistry? Also, the way that MAOI's are used in treatement of depression and how they allow for more serotonin to be produced in the intenstinal tract rather than metabolised in the gut by natural MAO's fascinates me. Not to mention the mysteries of the pineal gland and it's connection to serotonin!!!

Apologies for posting more questions rather than answers but this is a subject I'm very interested in lately and I can't wait to see how this thread progresses.
 
nadir said:
benzyme said:
not likely

there's no evidence for INMT expression in the human pineal gland, 5-HIOMT is expressed there instead
Click to expand...
oh, okay.
but it should be somewhere else in the brain (perhaps lymbic system?)
i've read something about an increased ammount of amine N-methyltransferase in psychiatric patients.
Click to expand...

isolation and expression of the enzyme from human epithelial cells in peripheral (non-neural) tissues is well documented...
lung, heart, adrenal, and spinal tissue
 
Kartikay said:
I'm not sure why no one has opened up a monkey's brain and taken a chunk of pineal gland to test for DMT.
Click to expand...

the issue is that MAO enzymes rapidly metabolize the molecule; this is why detection of dmt production in vivo has been problematic. there only exists models of probable pathways, puzzle pieces that haven't been put together.
 
I think Strassman said that engulfing the pineal in liquid nitrogen very soon after death would prevent the breakdown of DMT, should it exist. I guess we can't just kill monkeys, but i don't know why no one has tried this on an already-dieing monkey. Or maybe one that is being "put to sleep" for medical reasons.
 
nadir said:
g13juggalo said:
Ohh.
Does anyone have any idea if when the pineal gland is activated if it will increase the level of seratonin, or would it be something else that gives effects?
Click to expand...
what do you mean by saying activated?
it's active all the time and it rebuilds serotonin to melatonin. There's lot's of rumors about dmt being synthesized in the pineal gland, however nobody knows whether it's true or not. True is that our brain has all enzymes that are needed to synthesize dmt from precursors(l-tryptophan)
Click to expand...
Its possible to focus on your pineal gland and it will start to make you see lights and things.
and its supposed to be a spiritual passage kind of.
And it interests me a lot.
and it will definitely do something noticable once you learn to work with it. Its often believed to be from it producing DMT, and this is my belief, but its not proven(I don't think).
 
Kartikay said:
I think Strassman said that engulfing the pineal in liquid nitrogen very soon after death would prevent the breakdown of DMT, should it exist. I guess we can't just kill monkeys, but i don't know why no one has tried this on an already-dying monkey. Or maybe one that is being "put to sleep" for medical reasons.
Click to expand...
I think someone should try it. It definitely sounds inhumane (I'm a vegetarian). But I would approve of it on something already dieing.
I laughed my ass off shortly after I read the "already dieing monkey" part. I imagined someone be like "ohshit. That monkeys dieing. Someone get me some nitrogen quick!"
 
Ident said:
I've been doing a bit of reading on this subject lately, inspired by the use of MAOI's in Aya/Pharma to potentiate the spice. I can't answer the main question and what I say is total speculation on my part but it's an interesting area, particularly when you realise how something like LSD actually gets into the brain by mimicking the structure of serotonin.

I know from my own experience how something like fluoxetine, an SSRI, can affect how substances act within my own body and I imagine that it's similar for others who use anti-depressants. Having never had DMT yet, I don't know how this will affect my experience when it comes but I look forward to seeing what some of the more knowledgeable members have to say about this subject.

As far as I can see, from what I've read at least, it's more to do with how certain drugs share similarities with serotonin rather than causing an increase by themselves. Perhaps it's the way the brain realises that it's allowed something it THINKS is serotonin and tries to generate more to account for the absense of what it perceived to be serotonin in an attempt to balance it's own chemistry? Also, the way that MAOI's are used in treatement of depression and how they allow for more serotonin to be produced in the intenstinal tract rather than metabolised in the gut by natural MAO's fascinates me. Not to mention the mysteries of the pineal gland and it's connection to serotonin!!!

Apologies for posting more questions rather than answers but this is a subject I'm very interested in lately and I can't wait to see how this thread progresses.
Click to expand...
Don't apologize. I don't mind. It just adds more things for us to find out.
I'm interested in finding out how to use the pineal gland most right now, as well as what it can do in combination with drugs.
I've heard its easier to activate after smoking weed, but I could never get it to work yet. I'm wondering about other drugs more though.
I would love to try to active it while using salvia or something.
But since the pineal gland produces seratonin and such, I'm not sure if it'd be possible to use while already under the influence, since drugs temporarily unbalance seratonin and such levels.

Anyone know if I could try to activate my pineal gland while on anything? I'd love to pick some salvia and try. I haven't had the patience to get it to work very well while sober, other than some light swirling colors, but it wasn't much more intense than the normal swirling colors from closing your eyes.
I bet drugs+ the pineal gland could work very well together though. It could strengthen the effects of the drugs, while the drug helps you focus and explore it.
 
Taoists have some interesting meditations focusing on the area of the pineal gland, or the 'third eye' at least, and my own experiences with those and also chakra based systems have been very interesting. Focusing ones attention on the area between the eyes, like the location of the bindi on Hindu women, and holding it there is a big part of many Eastern systems and, according to Zen metaphors, can lead to a realisation of "the master who makes the grass green" or, if you're more into the R.A. Wilson/Leary model, the metaprogrammer.

It takes a lot of time and practice to acheive even moderate effects from these meditations but it's something worth pursuing, if only for the health benefits meditation can bring. Last night I actually had a flash of 'illumination' (for want of a better word) while focusing on that area which gave me the idea that perhaps our future perception may involve the conscious integration of the imaginative faculties. Who knows! Perhaps the function of the pineal gland is connected to imagination while we're conscious? I know it's been suggested that the pineal gland is linked to dreaming so it's not that much of a stretch to make the connection (however tenuous) between dreaming and conscious, willed imagination. Ceremonial magic and even the most basic of meditative practices make use of willed imagination so perhaps there's a connection? Interesting mind food!!!

As for substances to combine with meditations, that's a whole other level to explore.....a very interesting level indeed!

I know I'm just throwing together ideas here but I don't have the time to properly plan a response. Great thread, thoroughly enjoying it!
 
Psychedelic drugs actually decrease the activity of the serotonin system. They trigger serotonin receptors, so the brain 'thinks' there's too much activity there. It responds with receptor downregulation.

On brainscans it is clearly visible that the area of the brain where serotonin is in relation to other transmitters, the most important transmitter, the neao-cortex, shows a temporarily reduced activity on all the classic psychedelics.

The psychedelic effect is probably partially caused by the fact that the serotonergic system functions as a sort of filter that filters out all things that are irrelevant and would put too much strain on the brain for a normal functioning in everyday life. When the filtering effect ceases, more of the information that's generated by the brain wich we would normally qualify as 'noise' becomes apparent.

This is where they also differe dramatically from XTC and other euphoriants.
 
polytrip said:
Psychedelic drugs actually decrease the activity of the serotonin system. They trigger serotonin receptors, so the brain 'thinks' there's too much activity there. It responds with receptor downregulation.

On brainscans it is clearly visible that the area of the brain where serotonin is in relation to other transmitters, the most important transmitter, the neao-cortex, shows a temporarily reduced activity on all the classic psychedelics.

The psychedelic effect is probably partially caused by the fact that the serotonergic system functions as a sort of filter that filters out all things that are irrelevant and would put too much strain on the brain for a normal functioning in everyday life. When the filtering effect ceases, more of the information that's generated by the brain wich we would normally qualify as 'noise' becomes apparent.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better myself. That last bit is the theory that I tend to agree with based on my personal experiences. It seems as if more information is allowed into our awareness, which our brain normally filters out as irrelevant or not relevant enough to bring to our attention. All this information makes our thoughts much more interesting and complete, but hampers our ability to turn our attention outwards to external activities.
 
polytrip said:
Psychedelic drugs actually decrease the activity of the serotonin system. They trigger serotonin receptors, so the brain 'thinks' there's too much activity there. It responds with receptor downregulation.
Click to expand...


If this is the case wouldn't this mean users would be more depressed after using psychedelics like Psylocibine? Logically if there is a downregulation less serotonin will be produced by the brain afterwards right? Or is this just a temporary thing?
So the basic question is how can users still feel the benefits of their change in mood months after the taking of entheogens?

Very interesting thread.

Peace
 
Back
Top Bottom