How do you become a shaman?

[Running Bear]

How do you become a shaman? What makes them so qualified to earn such a name? Seeing how we also go on psychedelic journeys how are they any different than us?
:?

 

[Running Bear]

.

 

[Running Bear]

:?:

It doesn't sound to me like you have any idea of what a Curandero actually does. I'm not an expert myself, but i have tried to understand what i can about Amazonian Curandismo. There may be some theatre involved, but for the most part there is a basic framework of serious work involved.

Curandero's aren't here to 'trip sit' people, that's what 'sitters' are for. Curandero's work is to heal sickness.

Please explain to me what they actually do and how they do it.

 

[Redguard]

They are different from someone who drinks Ayahuasca, because they have knowledge and ability that a drinker does not have, from the training and plant knowledge assimilated. They can actively work in the realms and manipulate it. A drinker does not have the same ability, and is merely passive.

The training :roll: ? the art of leaf throwing, chanting and using fire/smoke to manipulate the experience is something we can do to. We don't need them and there are better ways to guide people through that realm.

:?:

It doesn't sound to me like you have any idea of what a Curandero actually does. I'm not an expert myself, but i have tried to understand what i can about Amazonian Curandismo. There may be some theatre involved, but for the most part there is a basic framework of serious work involved.

Curandero's aren't here to 'trip sit' people, that's what 'sitters' are for. Curandero's work is to heal sickness.

Unfortunately Shamanism hasn't been presented very well on this forum in the past and these are the kinds of reactions you will get when this topic is brought up. You either know what they are capable of your you don't. Their loss not ours

 

[Running Bear]

I apologize for being disrespectful. Now I'm starting to feel bad

 

[ganesh]

It doesn't sound to me like you have any idea of what a Curandero actually does. I'm not an expert myself, but i have tried to understand what i can about Amazonian Curandismo. There may be some theatre involved, but for the most part there is a basic framework of serious work involved.

Curandero's aren't here to 'trip sit' people, that's what 'sitters' are for. Curandero's work is to heal sickness.

Please explain to me what they actually do and how they do it.

I'll try and sum it up as simply as possible, because it's a pretty long winded topic. Firstly, in terms of Amazonian Curandismo using Ayahausca, the Curandero will have acquired a lot of knowledge and power from the plant spirits throught the isolated 'dietas', etc. These will be put to use in the healing ceremony. He will use the Ayahuasca to help diagnose illness, and then use a combination of Icaros(healing songs), Mapaccho smoke( jungle tobacco), and sometimes sucking, to remove the sickness.

The Curandero will also often prescribe suitable plant medicines to further assist the patient in recovery.

I seriously recommend further reading on this very fascinating subject. What i have said is the most basic of explanations, that of course does no justice whatsoever to these ancient yet living traditions in use today.

Unfortunately Shamanism hasn't been presented very well on this forum in the past and these are the kinds of reactions you will get when this topic is brought up. You either know what they are capable of your you don't. Their loss not ours

It's true to say that discussing a topic is much more constructive when one has a fair base idea of what say Curandismo is about. There exists many different types of Shamanism, but it's all similar in the way it works on a Spiritual level. Amazonian Curandismo is the most likely candidate considering the nature of this forum and the Entheogens in discussion.

I hope i have been able to provide a basic idea of what it involves, although further reading is highly recommended. Many good books out there.

 

[dreamer042]

People on this forum have a really bad habit of associating curanderos, ayahuasceros, tobbocaros, vegetalistas, brujos, roadmen, medicine men, healers, witches, spirtual leaders, etc... with the term "shamanism".

I'd suggest any of these people practicing their path with sincerity would never refer to themselves with the Tungus term "shaman". I'd also suggest to be quite wary of any of these people claiming such a title.

I made my orignal post in jest, but outside of Siberia, shamanism really does boil down to the level of new age weekend workshop certifications and the occasional outdated anthropology textbook. To lump the unique practices of peoples of diverse cultures from around the globe into the 19th century western-centric anthropologist definition shaman is to display ignorance of and disrespect toward the work that they do. Imo/Ime anyway.

 

[BundleflowerPower]

People on this forum have a really bad habit of associating curanderos, ayahuasceros, tobbocaros, vegetalistas, brujos, roadmen, medicine men, healers, witches, spirtual leaders, etc... with the term "shamanism" .

That's why, imo people should just find the path that suites them with this stuff, who cares what you call yourself? Because in a way, it's like spirituality, the truth you find within is your truth, whether a shaman teaches you how to work with the plants and how to work with intent and the energy of plants, or you do it on your own, the plants lead you within either way. That's really what is is, the shaman knows himself, he's found himself, and ultimately no one did that for him.

 

[Nathanial.Dread]

Unless you've been born into, or accepted by, an Indiginous Evenki-speaking community in North Asia, you DO NOT become a 'shaman,' and even then, not without a considerable, and highly culture-specific, amount of education. You're probably conflating 'shaman' with 'medicine man,' 'ayahuasquero,' or any number of other culturally distinct roles that New Age types have thoughtlessly lumped into one icon called 'Shamanism.'

Now, if you buy into the appropriation of the term shamanism and aren't too interested in cultural literacy, I suppose you can just call yourself one. There's no 'Shaman Police' that's going to kick down your door and cart you off.

That said, why do you want to be a 'shaman?' What is it about the title that appeals to you so much? Why not just do what it is you feel called to do, and do yourself the favor of not getting bogged down in new-age BS. If you want to heal people with psychedelics, find your own path. If you want to explore the 'spirit world,' that's something else you can do yourself.

Don't steal it from others, especially if you don't have a context for what they do.

The Dalai Lama (who I think is a generally pretty respected guy on this forum) has advised Western Seekers to avoid turning to Buddhism, but rather, try to find meaning in their own native traditions, not out of some sense of separatism, but because you can do more good in your own community, speaking the language of your immediate neighbors.

Blessings
~ND

 

[Running Bear]

That said, why do you want to be a 'shaman?' What is it about the title that appeals to you so much? Why not just do what it is you feel called to do, and do yourself the favor of not getting bogged down in new-age BS. If you want to heal people with psychedelics, find your own path. If you want to explore the 'spirit world,' that's something else you can do yourself.
~ND

I agree! :thumb_up:

 

[endlessness]

Unless you've been born into, or accepted by, an Indiginous Evenki-speaking community in North Asia, you DO NOT become a 'shaman,' and even then, not without a considerable, and highly culture-specific, amount of education. You're probably conflating 'shaman' with 'medicine man,' 'ayahuasquero,' or any number of other culturally distinct roles that New Age types have thoughtlessly lumped into one icon called 'Shamanism.'

Now, if you buy into the appropriation of the term shamanism and aren't too interested in cultural literacy, I suppose you can just call yourself one. There's no 'Shaman Police' that's going to kick down your door and cart you off.

That said, why do you want to be a 'shaman?' What is it about the title that appeals to you so much? Why not just do what it is you feel called to do, and do yourself the favor of not getting bogged down in new-age BS. If you want to heal people with psychedelics, find your own path. If you want to explore the 'spirit world,' that's something else you can do yourself.

Don't steal it from others, especially if you don't have a context for what they do.

The Dalai Lama (who I think is a generally pretty respected guy on this forum) has advised Western Seekers to avoid turning to Buddhism, but rather, try to find meaning in their own native traditions, not out of some sense of separatism, but because you can do more good in your own community, speaking the language of your immediate neighbors.

Blessings
~ND

Great post

 

[inaniel]

isn't the term "shaman", as is used today, originally defined by western anthropologists?


according to wikipedia

Shamanism (/ˈʃɑːmən/ shah-mən or /ˈʃeɪmən/ shay-mən) is a practice that involves a practitioner reaching altered states of consciousness in order to perceive and interact with a spirit world and channel these transcendental energies into this world

that could also be applied to ayahuasqueros, curanderos, and yes, even new age weekend workshops. who cares what the north asians did. i'm sure what they were doing a few centuries ago differed greatly from what was being practices 5 thousand to possibly 10, 15, or 30 thousand years prior. i think they may have even found evidence that neanderthals practiced shamanism. neanderthals. does that make the tungas the true shaman, or neanderthals? or did the tungas practice the exact same thing for all those thousands of years?



i'd say, the map is not the territory. all things evolve. the idea of shamanism isn't frozen in time to the manner in which some white people decided to classify the 17th century tungas.

 

[DmnStr8]

The ancients that used the same substances we use today passed down information. Often this information was oral history. Generation after generation passing along the stories and songs. My interest is that we are all one human family. I wanted to learn this oral history and incorporate anything that could be used for self healing and mind expansion. Give respect to my ancestors and learn from them. I can obtain this knowledge and pass it down as a I am part of this global village. I take it all with a grain of salt. Personally I like many of the words the ancient shamans have chosen the world over. I think they understood the power of gratitude and respect. They understood the power of words.

The shamans give praise to the earth. The sky. The animals and plant. They give thanks to their ancestors for their knowledge and contributions. What I see is that modern shamanism is being manipulated in many ways. It is really too bad. It is hard to separate the wheat from the chaff. But this manipulation is no different than any other manipulation upon any truth. It would seem all religions have been manipulated in some form throughout history.

That said it is up to the individual to find their own truth in things. What I find true and interesting about shamanism is going to be much different than anyone else. I needed a way to speak to the universe. I am an atheist. I never had a way to speak to something outside of myself. I didn't believe there was anything listening. What I have taken from shamanism is a way to give gratitude for my life in this world when I can. When I feel gratitude, I have a place to put it now. I give thanks to the earth, sky, the animals and plants, and my ancient teachers. I continue to learn about shamanism never intending to be one, but wanting to learn how they operate.

A new language must emerge from us. New terms. New thinking. Discounting shamanism entirely is throwing away the baby with the bath water. As I mentioned before, shamanism has been hijacked in many ways. Manipulated. You can look past the manipulations with a critical mind. Find a way to look at shamanism in a modern way. Use new symbols and terminology. Create the words you need to create the power you need. Make something new. Perhaps this is wishful thinking. I imagine anything can transform.

We can learn these ancient practices and make our own interpretations of them. You can carry as far as you like. I don't carry it far. I enjoy the door it opened for communication to this world. The communication it opened for altered states of consciousness. I also enjoy the ceremonial aspects. I need to create sacred space. I need to feel like the environment is clean. Even if this is all just for my mind it has helped me in many ways.

The things I have seen when ingesting psychedelics has proven to create much more questions than answers. When I started practicing opening a scared space and went into these altered states as a quest, I found the experience changed for me quite a bit. I have found a certain calmness in these terrains. Becoming more comfortable because I created a place in my mind where I felt everything was safe and I was protected. These may all be in my imagination. I don't care. I like to imagine. Shamanism gives me access and permission to use my imagination.

All of this is just my opinion about shamanism given what I have learned about it recently. It's a new interest and one that have enjoyed learning about it. I continue to learn and could talk about this subject for hours I think.

How do you become a shaman? Learn about them and you will see that you do not become a shaman. You are chosen as one. You do not decide to become one by taking a training class and obtaining a certificate. You are a shaman when you are helping others in a positive way and are acknowledged by your village or peers as a healer. As someone who always promotes healing in others. Living in balance with nature. The day people start coming to you for advice in healing and look to you for some guidance and then acknowledge you for that is the day you are a shaman. The title is given through another, not a certificate.

 

[ganesh]

I can only 'attempt' to talk about Amazonian Curandismo, and traditionally things were passed down in families, or those who were 'chosen' by the plant spirits, became Curandero's.

Today, that is probably much less the case, although that itself can be argued. What however cannot be argued is that Ayahuasca tourism is a potential big bucks business model for those that are sucessful at running healing centres!

You might have an interest in such a world, and train under a respected Curandero to become one yourself. You may also have good business skills, and speak Spanish. You may be able to use your invested money and skills to make a good name for yourself and help the community as much as yourself. Some Gringo's are already doing this!

But, in any case, it's one hell of a responsability, and only certain people will want to undertake such a challenge. If someone wants to become successful, they'd better be aware of what they are getting themselves into. Most Gringo's would rather hire the Curandero, and stick to running a healing centre.

There is a lot of dreaming going on about being a Curandero, but if you haven't got business skills, you won't last a week! Any skills are as useful as they can be put to use!

 

[Chan]

Who knew there were so many different view-points on this topic? :twisted:

Perhaps the whole thread deserves to become a sticky in one of the Welcome fora?

OP isn't the first, and probably won't be the last to ask such a question, and it's probably unrealistic to expect new visitors to have a broad awareness of many of the (technically correct) terms beyond shaman. Let's not forget, one person's rue is another person's harmala alkaloids or beta-carbolines or just MAOI even... It all depends on the context, and need for accuracy, of the conversation.

After all,

At the beginning of the 20th century, Westerners began using “shaman” to describe not only the specialists described above, but also and inaccurately the medicine men, sorcerers, magicians, witch doctors, and anyone who appeared to be in contact with spirits. This general use of the word “shaman” dilutes the meaning of the word, which arose to describe a group of specialists who continue to practice among us today.

When bona fide academics like Stephan Beyer can subtitle their PhD thesis: "Mestizo Shamanism in the Upper Amazon" then the shamanic-winged-horse has probably long since left the stable, especially when

In many shamanic cultures there are healers who practice the arts of physical healing with methods such as herbal medicines, massage, or acupuncture. These healers are not shamans, but practitioners who traditionally practice in conjunction with the shaman in the community. Any number of these healing arts may be practiced by particular shamans. For example, most Amazonian shamans have a vast knowledge of the medicinal and hallucinogenic uses of rain forest plants. However, the practice of these arts does not make one a shaman, because this healing does not require mastery of trance states.

Note how even here, in the final two sentences, the incorrect and correct usages are difficult to disentangle. Both quotes from An Encyclopedia of Shamanism, 2007.

Leaving aside the dubious providers of workshops, and pre-sewn head-dresses etc, what DmnStr8 said

I am an atheist. I never had a way to speak to something outside of myself. I didn't believe there was anything listening. What I have taken from shamanism is a way to give gratitude for my life in this world when I can. When I feel gratitude, I have a place to put it now. I give thanks to the earth, sky, the animals and plants, and my ancient teachers. I continue to learn about shamanism never intending to be one, but wanting to learn how they operate.

perhaps goes to the heart of the issue for the "serious seeker". In our modern Western societies, there is NO legitimate space, or path, open for people who subscribe to this archaic belief system, and this makes us collectively poorer IMO. More importantly, any believers are likely to be regarded as some of the last acceptable targets for ridicule and abuse, and perhaps even LEO scrutiny, in stark contrast to pretty much every other harmless, self-contained minority group these days... Our own ways have gone, because they have been exterminated over millennia. We can either attempt to "regenerate" them from scratch, or appropriate them (however inappropriately) from others, or even synthesize them from disparate sources such as Jung, Harner & Eliade.

Whatever you call him/her, one of the key tasks of the shaman was maintaining balance between the worlds. As our world breaks new records every day, on sweeping exponential curves, we arguably need balance to be restored more urgently than ever, and perhaps this "new found interest in shamanism" is only one way that our collective unconscious is manifesting this need...?

In the absence of a dedicated Nexian glossary/lexicon (or just a Wiki entry?) it would be a shame to lose this subject in a storm of semantics.

Now, time to go do some hoovering with the Dyson

 

[ganesh]

Who knew there were so many different view-points on this topic? :twisted:

Well, if people were to be more specific, and work on gathering facts, there would be far more clarity and much less fluff.

The o/p wants to know what it takes to become a Shaman, but on a 'mostly' Amazon plant based forum, does he really mean Amazon Curandero?

That would certainly simplify things for a start: I think each specific style of healing needs to be tackled individually, because in the world there are definately many different healing practices involved, even if the end goals are the same.

It doesn't do the subject justice to lump them all together and attempt to treat them as one. It's just not as easy a subject as that to explain away. Even Amazonian Curandismo is a huge subject in itself to explore.

Probably the best thing is to explore the practices in the way they differ in every world country. For example, in South America, although Ayahuasca is incorporated in Amazonian curandismo, it is employed 'differently', with different plants, and understandings-depending on the 'tribe'.

Obviously, once the base facts are made clear, one can work on attempting to rationalise these differences, before making total conclusions. That isn't easy, in fact it's one hell of a task.

It could go something like this:

Amazonian Curandismo breakdown:1.Peru.

1. Location and name of tribe.
2. beliefs and practices.
3. what plants and methods are used.
4. conclusions.

You could easily fill a book just doing Amazonian Curandismo!

 

[Chan]

Well, if people were to be more specific, there would be far more clarity and much less fluff.

Not necessarily!

We shouldn't forget that most of the time, most people start at the "generic" level and work towards the "specific". This is a legitimate process of learning, and shouldn't be arbitrarily discouraged by esoteric discussions on semantics. I imagine, Ganesh, there was a time where you were aware of the term shaman but as yet unaware of the term curandero?

Let's allow others to make similar discoveries, in their own time, lest we be accused of elitism.

 

[JDSalinger]

The Dalai Lama (who I think is a generally pretty respected guy on this forum) has advised Western Seekers to avoid turning to Buddhism, but rather, try to find meaning in their own native traditions, not out of some sense of separatism, but because you can do more good in your own community, speaking the language of your immediate neighbors.

Not sure how much this gels with me, Buddhism first arrived in Tibet during the 5th century and really spread during the 8th century whence it mixed with Bön, creating something beautiful.
I don't think teachings, especially spiritual ones should be made culturally exclusive. Maybe the real issue is an appropriate integration of teachings within the framework of specific culture? IMO spiritual teachings transcend time and culture, I see them as inclusive, sadly 'we' have been great at projecting spiritual elitism. I might be taking your paraphrasing out of context though and in no way do I profess that the Dalai Lama practices spiritual elitism...

Love

 

[ganesh]

I imagine, Ganesh, there was a time where you were aware of the term shaman but as yet unaware of the term curandero?

Correct, Chan. However i am all for helping people understand the facts, to they can differentiate the two. Getting the basics sorted should be the fist premise, should it not?

Let's allow others to make similar discoveries, in their own time, lest we be accused of elitism.

This isn't about elitism in the slightest. The facts are available for those who can be bothered to do some research.If the facts are available, then shouldn't we be pointing people towards them, rather than encouraging confusion and misunderstandings? After all isn't that the point of the WIKI?

Also, people would be far wiser to read books written by people like Steven Beyer, Alan Shoemaker, Peter Gorman, etc, than Terence Mckenna; who's take on Amazonian Curandismo was comparitively amateur and filled with his own brand of philosophy and intrigue.

I have ammended my above post to show how the subject could be analysed in greater detail for those wanting to achieve greater factual knowledge, in the hope this could help them make better and more positive arguments.

To learn; share; expand, we must try to make the effort to gather the basic facts first. It's easy enough if it's available on the forum. Perhaps a WIKI for the purpose i discussed would help. After all this subject is cropping up, it's probably about time to face the daunting job of explaining it (in the simplest easy to access ways). :d

 

[Chan]

To learn; share; expand, we must try to make the effort to gather the basic facts first.

At the top of this page, it says:

"WELCOME AREA (new members can post here) >> FAQ >> All your basic questions and answers..."

With respect, what you are proposing would not fall under "basic questions and answers".

Neither does casually prescribing a PhD thesis and some other highly commendable monographs...

And what about mestizos who claim no particular tribal origins? Are they excluded from your survey?

Which plants? As many researchers have found, Linnaean taxonomy can collapse pretty quickly once it's just you and a machete, so translating reliably between indigenous and Western names is fraught with difficulty.

And the "conclusions" are dependent on view-point/belief-framework: does a plant really "drive out demons" or just exhibit sedating, anti-psychotic properties, or both?!

A curandero from one location might always do X, yet his near-neighbour might never do X. Which is correct, who is the true, complete, authentic maestro?

Your aims are laudable, Ganesh, but they have eluded all the pre-eminent researchers to-date. So perhaps all this is still some way off being ready for the WELCOME AREA...:surprised

In the meantime, while people periodically show up asking "how can I get into healing?" Be it for themselves, their loved ones...whomever, it would be great if they could scan something quickly that shows the multiverse of possibilities for them to explore. And that shaman is originally a specific term that has since evolved to possess generic usefulness.

And there's a lot more to it than simply throwing leaves around (sic) with some psy-trance pumping in the background...

Note, be careful of accepting any medicine from a man like this...!

 

[ganesh]

At the top of this page, it says: "WELCOME AREA (new members can post here) >> FAQ >> All your basic questions and answers..."
With respect, what you are proposing would not fall under "basic questions and answers".

Of course it does! I was meaning to propose a system that would involve welcoming people and then directing them to a basic 'overview' of the subject, and then onto a 'quick to read' breakdown of the differences between the 'tribes'(that we can account for within reason). That would be a very easy way to understand the subject in a user friendly way.

And what about mestizos who claim no particular tribal origins? Are they excluded from your survey?
What plants? As many researchers have found, Linnaean taxonomy can collapse pretty quickly once it's just you and a machete, so translating reliably between indigenous and Western names is fraught with difficulty.
And the "conclusions" are dependent on view-point/belief-framework: does a plant really "drive out demons" or just exhibit sedating, anti-psychotic properties, or both?!
A curandero from one location might always do X, yet his near-neighbour might never do X. Which is correct, who is the true, complete, authentic maestro?

I must say that what i propose would be as simple as possible: Links for further research could be provided, although the idea is that a simple guide should suffice for most purposes. It would certainly be far better than what is currently available.

Your aims are laudable, Ganesh, but they have eluded all the pre-eminent researchers to-date. So perhaps all this is still some way off being ready for the WELCOME AREA...:surprised

Thanks Chan. I hope that my idea will be taken up by someone, as i am making it my job to propose the 'idea'. I believe it hasn't been done before because it involves a lot of research and of course would need to be watered down into the easiest to read/understand format.

In the meantime, while people periodically show up asking "how can I get into healing?" Be it for themselves, their loved ones...whomever, it would be great if they could scan something quickly that shows the multiverse of possibilities for them to explore. And that shaman is originally a specific term that has since evolved to possess generic usefulness.

And there's a lot more to it than simply throwing leaves around (sic) with some psy-trance pumping in the background...

Yea. Of course. I'm only trying to get people understanding things correctly from the start in the easiest and friendliest way possible; it's just as easy to learn the facts as the misinformation, so lets start right, eh?.Surely that's better than for someone to learn misinformation and then have to later relearn the facts all over again?