How do you feel (and do) after a holy experiences?

[Ram Dazz]

Friends,

as mentioned in a other posting...a couple of weeks I had an experience that I would
judge as an holy experience.

My whole life I'm waiting for that. But I never expected that such an experience could be
"problematic".



What is very strange:
* I can't integrate this experience in my life.
* It's impossible for me to say "that was nice but it make no sense to try to explain/understand it" and
"keep it as it is".
* Don't get me wrong, but this holy experience is a little bit stress/pressure for me.
* It is itchy but I can't scratch it.

Questions to you:
* If you ever had such situation...how do you interact?
* Did you become a "believer"?
* If yes, what should we believe?
* Are these questions normal?

Thanks in advance.

BTW, that experience was important and good for me, I don't deny it.


Ram Dazz

 

[Jees]

So you had my add in that other thread.

I think we cannot and should not think/feel/smart it out.
Like trying to grab or integrate the 6th or 9th dimension?
Even if it exist, so presuming it was no fluke of a drugged soul, then we fail having a handle on it to build on further. Religions do, but fall short big time imho.

If there was a clear message brought forth then you have something, but in my case it stopped at just being illustrated an energy field, call it holy if you want.

My best interpretation was that on the level of that field there's still an individualization, a kind of personality active. For me it stops at "noticed" or being "informed" about that.

I think another one's "holy" experience could be quite different, so here I gave mine only.

My take on it:
I seriously believe in self regulating mechanisms that do not need our brain or cognition potentials to function. Like you don't HAVE to so something special with it. Resting in that possibility all I have to do is breath, give that body oxygen, give the body it's rest, don't stir it up with emotions.

I see the possibility that our inferences might not serve the cause, even when they are all well meant. For me it mainly caused a hole in the wall of "impossible". An opening has been made and I am not planning to make it wider or put bricks in it to close, I just leave it alone without any further bias, believing that this hole in my atheist wall is just the right size as it is meant to be.

If someone now asks me: "Does GOD exist?" then I would say: "I believe in the potential of a layered system, of which I have noticed likely 1 onion peel further."
For me that might be a huge thing because I know little sh*t about things, but in the complete context it might be a minor detail after all. Putting huge things into perspective a bit.

Then also time has it's ways to deal with these things, I trust in that too. Not that the answer comes necessarily, but building up the ability to stay cool in the midst of energy surges. Maybe I've only seen 0.00000000000000001% and now all I have to do is adapt to that situation by not reacting to it overly, with the help of time. Things have imho their own mechanics of integration, I just have to allow it to happen.
Sort of

Note that I keep believing in the possibility of a mere biochemical reaction experience and my mind automatically tried to interpret with known values, like projecting "God" to it. This uncertainty keeps me wanting to stay cool about it.

I would like to hear how others deal with it :thumb_up:

 

[Aum_Shanti]

@Jees:
Just out of curiosity: Did you ever have a full release on 5-MeO-DMT?

I'm just curious, because as it seems there are quite some reports about atheists being not anymore atheists afterwards.
That's a topic which I find quite intriguing.

For me that's not really the question as I had experiences already from young age.But I do not claim this to be the truth for all.

As I see it, it is similar like this:

Do you believe New York really exists?
Well if you have never been there, you have every right to believe it doesn't exist.
Although there are people saying to you, they were there and it is real, you still can deny it, and have every right to do so. Pics could as well be just fake...

But if you have ever been there, you know it exists...

Or as Sri Aurobindo said: "God created the atheist to deny himself"

 

[Jees]

Ram Dazz did wise by saying Holy experience, I shouldn't have bringing God to the thread because Holy is wider and a lesser stained concept.

No 5meo here, I had that revelation on 3 potent aya cups, the first 2 did little while others were out already, so a third and then they all 3 hit at once. Ding dong.
I can't minimize or ridicule it, never. The experience was full on holy, the humbling was devastating, the love was ripping. Streaming tears, but still on earth, not 'out' as I read from 5meo's so chances are it's different after all.

How could I consider that it might have been a biochemical/neurological quite material process after all, one that my mind translated as holy? If it was truly holy I should not question it. Is this my atheist side gaining terrain back?

The thing is I do not question it but I try to put in perspective even such a huge event. Is that ever possible?
How should a baby feel when getting born? That feeling must be .... devastating.
Suppose that baby could talk, it would say: "Do you realize what the :shock: :shock: :shock: just happened to me?" And you answer: "Well calm down you just got born dude."
The baby might answer: "If you ever experienced this you would not be talking so moderate about it!!! I guess you never got born."
The answer was not ridiculing what the baby feels, it is the same thing yet looked back at from another perspective. It is those perspectives I try to dig out also, afterwards.

I truly believe my experience was a biochemical/neurological storm in it's most literal way, if I had an EEG then it would have gone out of charts. But instead of putting that materialistic event in contrast to holiness, like a this-OR-that, it might just as well be part of it, like 2 sides of same coin.

About my holy experience I can come up with a set of perspectives by now. It's not doubting actually but zooming out, or attempts to it. Then realizing this is not needed and stuff has an own agenda and pace, leaving it for what it is, believing it its own mechanics taking care of itself, which is one other perspective again.

I become uncertain by choosing one of them, or excluding one of them perspectives. It's an indication they all point at same thing I guess.

BTW in daily life I encounter an amount of synchronicities, enough to silence the material atheist. How about integrating that?
I consider this also as holy, can't see it else.

 

[○]

As I see it, it is similar like this:

Do you believe New York really exists?
Well if you have never been there, you have every right to believe it doesn't exist.
Although there are people saying to you, they were there and it is real, you still can deny it, and have every right to do so. Pics could as well be just fake...

But if you have ever been there, you know it exists...

What I highlighted in bold stuck out to me. These same words more or less were said to me in a thread several years back, I think by Gibran2 following an experience I had with 1:1 changa, that experience left no question still to this day, never had an experience that deep since.

Questions to you:
* If you ever had such situation...how do you interact?
* Did you become a "believer"?
* If yes, what should we believe?
* Are these questions normal?

* Like how do I interact with the world? Is that what you're asking? Sorry. But yes I had an experience a few years back, what I mentioned above. It just took time and trying to keep busy. I go to the local national forest alot, hike a considerable amount. During that time after I'd had that experience, hiking and being out in the woods was a nice equalizer for me.

* To quote gibran2 from my experience thread several years back : 'You’ve had your “reality-confirming” experience. You no longer believe. Now you know.

* So then the question would turn into "If yes, what should we know?" Know that 'that experience' is possible. Make what you will from there.

* Sure are.

 

[Global]

I wouldn't feel pressured to believe anything or subscribe to a belief system or something like that. Holy experiences come in all varieties. On DMT, I've seen Hindu imagery and Egyptian imagery. There are others who report seeing Buddhist, Christian, Aztec/Mayan imagery, etc...I don't see a reason to immediately jump on board with a certain belief system because after all, even assuming your vision is "valid," we have no way of knowing just how much the "pop culture" form of the religion has been filtered down by man. If I see an Egyptian deity, my first reaction isn't necessarily that everything has now been validated in regards to Egyptian spirituality. I would stay open minded. Do research on the religion of your holy vision like you're auditing a class or something, without needing to feel like it is the truth. You're just gathering evidence and maybe you'll start noticing certain trends, and that would be a beneficial form of integration, even if it is not satisfactorily complete by your standards.

 

[Aum_Shanti]

As always, everything just from my POV:

I always find it amusing how so many people have a problem with the word "God".
It's just a word.
I think it mostly has to do with the fact that for many people this word is associated with a certain cultural/religious load, which got shaped in their childhood, and these strong (negative) associations cannot be shed anymore (like a trauma).
E.g. I like how Oroc has to name the word "G/d" just so that he can accept it for himself.
The word "God" itself seems too negatively associated for him (with his cultural imprints) to be able to accept it.

But everyone as he likes. Doesn't matter how you call it. If it is "holy", "mystic", or "...".
In the end we are all talking about the same.

Is this my atheist side gaining terrain back?

I think this is generally how the mind/ego works. No matter if you're atheist or not (e.g. my mind does the same).
From my experience, people like tatt are rather seldom, where their mind doesn't start to question the experience after some time. That's why a spiritual master once said, to write down your experience and what you felt in that situation. Then your mind will have much a harder job into dissecting and reinterpreting the experience into nothingness.
Or to the other extreme if you really want to believe in such mystic experiences, your ego/mind will probably try to put more of your preconceived ideas about it into the memory of the experience and will in the end also completely vanish the actual experience with a "wished" experience from your mind ideas.
So writing down also helps you to prevent this also.
That's basically from the observation how my mind works. As said, all from my POV.

I mentioned many times now how I think psychedelics work, and don't be afraid, I won't again start explaining it...
But from this, in my POV it gets clear that whatever picture finally manifests in your memory had to go through your physical brain for manifestation.
And during this process the interpretation and visual aspect got influenced by whatever your ideas are.
Therefore e.g. seeing an "Egyptian imagery" doesn't mean it is like that and everything else is wrong. It's just a picture your mind gave during interpretation for memorization.
E.g. a spiritual master once said, that God appears in that form, that you think he looks like. IMHO that's exactly this.
E.g. when I first experienced god, I was a little child, and so he got manifested in my memory as an old man with a white beard (really!). That was just the idea my mind had at that time of how god looks like.

E.g. when Sri Ramakrishna realized "God" through different known religious paths he ended up seeing/experiencing "God" exactly in the way this "religious" path describes him.
IMHO that's again exactly the same.

A spiritual master also once said, that there's no "correct" picture of how god looks like. One form isn't better or truer as the other.
E.g. although from an intellectual mind aspect you could say god is ultimately formless, and this is the only truth, and giving him form is a minor representation, so is this IMHO only a game of the ego/mind.
For as a spiritual master once said: It is easier for a human to see God in the form than in the formless.

Our mind just cannot really use this formless aspect as it cannot really understand it. So therefore if you wanna remember god in the formless, chances are high you will only remember a whiteout.

Sorry if I again drifted too much offtopic. Really!

 

[Ram Dazz]

I wouldn't feel pressured to believe anything or subscribe to a belief system or something like that. Holy experiences come in all varieties. On DMT, I've seen Hindu imagery and Egyptian imagery. There are others who report seeing Buddhist, Christian, Aztec/Mayan imagery, etc...I don't see a reason to immediately jump on board with a certain belief system because after all, even assuming your vision is "valid," we have no way of knowing just how much the "pop culture" form of the religion has been filtered down by man. If I see an Egyptian deity, my first reaction isn't necessarily that everything has now been validated in regards to Egyptian spirituality. I would stay open minded. Do research on the religion of your holy vision like you're auditing a class or something, without needing to feel like it is the truth. You're just gathering evidence and maybe you'll start noticing certain trends, and that would be a beneficial form of integration, even if it is not satisfactorily complete by your standards.

Interesting point, as you mentioned Hindu/Egypt imagery...I suddenly realize that my experiences are complete abstract. What I saw was not from this world, but this make it complete impossible to describe. That's maybe the reason I can't remember because there is nothing familiar to remember.

When I try to recall ... it is like describing colors to a blind person (at the daily business I'm the blind person).
BTW, I read a lot religious books but these religious stories or metaphors did not appear (in my) DMT realm.

 

[Ram Dazz]

Friends,

thanks for your postings. When I read them...I have a certain feeling that this is the way I have to go.
Yes,yes, I know "big words".


Could it be that behind DMT is not "one truth for all" and "one message for everyone"?
Could it be that anybody gets the truth he deserve?
Could it be that we get a message from DMT in our personal words and personal perception dedicated only for you?
Could it be that this message is only understandable by the receiver?

Thanks

 

[syberdelic]

In response to the OP, I think there is often a deep seated drive to give DMT/Ayahuasca experiences a spiritual meaning when that may or may not be reasonable. These experiences might have a spiritual basis, but from my experience this is definitely not a defacto assumption.

I had a very difficult time integrating my first Ayahuasca experience while trying to link it to spirituality. Once I let go and realized that it all happened inside my own head without any outside influence, the integration wasn't necessarily easy, but proceeded and precipitated a good deal of personal growth and clarity.

One might assume that I'm atheist. This is true in that I would consider myself an athiest before prescribing to any known religion/spirituality. I would first consider myself an agnostic as I'm a skeptic. I believe that there is a place for spirituality in the world, but I don't believe that this should be the first place people turn when in a crisis... or the second, third, fourth, etc. I think it should be one of the last in terms of all other possibilities have been exhausted. Spirituality should be approached carefully as it can easily fester into religion and cause more harm than good.

All I'm suggesting is that sometimes we need to step out of the spirituality for a moment. Give it a few days, maybe a week. Try to integrate the experience within what is known. If this doesn't help, then by all means return to belief systems. Even I have not entirely abandoned spirituality, but it is the "voice" not the "hand".

 

[HumbleTraveler777]

Ive had some truly holy experiences ive had some truly hellish experiences they come and go. Believe everything, believe nothing most importantly dont look to have your beliefs validated by others.

 

[IAmWe-WeAreYou]

Maybe it is a good idea to start to say that everything I write is just my ego understanding and my point of view from a very limited mental framework. But I guess that should go with saying for all of us.

* I can't integrate this experience in my life.

Relax and let it take the time necessary for you to do the integration. A couple of weeks is not much IMHO, it took me 3 years until I manage to create a crude mental picture that satisfied my rational and logical side (although I know that it is probably more wrong than right) and be able to start to integrate my DMT experiences with my normal everyday life.

* It's impossible for me to say "that was nice but it make no sense to try to explain/understand it" and
"keep it as it is".
* Don't get me wrong, but this holy experience is a little bit stress/pressure for me.

I totally understand the stress and pressure. I have also felt that but I managed to turn it around into curiosity and saw all this as an unique opportunity to explore something that is out of the ordinary and very few people are aware of.

* It is itchy but I can't scratch it.

Keep on trying, I'm sure you will find the sweet spot sooner or later

* If you ever had such situation...how do you interact?

I reacted pretty much in the same way as you, to start with. But yeah, as I just mentioned, I managed to turn it into (very fun and pleasant) curiosity.

* Did you become a "believer"?

Not until I got all my answers and I could not deny it anymore

* If yes, what should we believe?

Sorry, I don't think you can be told what to believe. You have to find it yourself.
But for a starter, take a look at all the religions that are out there, but don't settle with that. Keep on looking.
Read every thread you find interesting in this forum, but don't settle with that. Keep on looking.
Set your intention to find the answer and take a trip to hyperspace and ask questions, but don't... yeah I guess you already figured out I'm going to write

* Are these questions normal?

For me it is very normal.

Could it be that behind DMT is not "one truth for all" and "one message for everyone"?

I dare say, of course not! I believe that each journey is unique and we need to find our own way. There are a lot of tools that we can use and DMT/psychedelics is one of them. But it doesn't suits everyone for sure.

Could it be that anybody gets the truth he deserve?

I don't think there is an external judge in some way other than that you get the truth that you think you deserve. You will get what you settle down with so don't stop trying to find it until you got your answers loud and clear

Could it be that we get a message from DMT in our personal words and personal perception dedicated only for you?

Of course, everything you experience is filtered through your mental structures, memories and all the things that make you the person you are. And since this type of experience is something that goes beyond physical form and normal thinking, it makes it extremely difficult for our egos to grasp without dragging it through the whole machinery a couple of times. And that will give you an experience that is unique for you (but may very well be similar to others). Also, I don't think there always is a message in the sense that we will understand it directly, or it may not be a message at all.
E.g. I have realized that I needed to have all these, for me, very extreme experiences without any answers for a long time. Because I wouldn't had done all the things that have lead me where I am today without them.

Could it be that this message is only understandable by the receiver?

No, I don't think that. I actually think that the very opposite might be true in some cases. That the messages we get will help others more than ourself.

Good luck and remember to have fun! The important thing I dare to say, is that this journey, to find all these answers, is the best thing we can do in our life time.

 

[Ram Dazz]

In response to the OP, I think there is often a deep seated drive to give DMT/Ayahuasca experiences a spiritual meaning when that may or may not be reasonable. These experiences might have a spiritual basis, but from my experience this is definitely not a defacto assumption.

I had a very difficult time integrating my first Ayahuasca experience while trying to link it to spirituality. Once I let go and realized that it all happened inside my own head without any outside influence, the integration wasn't necessarily easy, but proceeded and precipitated a good deal of personal growth and clarity.

One might assume that I'm atheist. This is true in that I would consider myself an athiest before prescribing to any known religion/spirituality. I would first consider myself an agnostic as I'm a skeptic. I believe that there is a place for spirituality in the world, but I don't believe that this should be the first place people turn when in a crisis... or the second, third, fourth, etc. I think it should be one of the last in terms of all other possibilities have been exhausted. Spirituality should be approached carefully as it can easily fester into religion and cause more harm than good.

All I'm suggesting is that sometimes we need to step out of the spirituality for a moment. Give it a few days, maybe a week. Try to integrate the experience within what is known. If this doesn't help, then by all means return to belief systems. Even I have not entirely abandoned spirituality, but it is the "voice" not the "hand".

...wonderful. Thanks.
Sometimes you can feel it but you don't find the right words. This are the right words (for me).

 

[Ram Dazz]

Maybe it is a good idea to start to say that everything I write is just my ego understanding and my point of view from a very limited mental framework. But I guess that should go with saying for all of us.

* I can't integrate this experience in my life.

Relax and let it take the time necessary for you to do the integration. A couple of weeks is not much IMHO, it took me 3 years until I manage to create a crude mental picture that satisfied my rational and logical side (although I know that it is probably more wrong than right) and be able to start to integrate my DMT experiences with my normal everyday life.

* It's impossible for me to say "that was nice but it make no sense to try to explain/understand it" and
"keep it as it is".
* Don't get me wrong, but this holy experience is a little bit stress/pressure for me.

I totally understand the stress and pressure. I have also felt that but I managed to turn it around into curiosity and saw all this as an unique opportunity to explore something that is out of the ordinary and very few people are aware of.

* It is itchy but I can't scratch it.

Keep on trying, I'm sure you will find the sweet spot sooner or later

* If you ever had such situation...how do you interact?

I reacted pretty much in the same way as you, to start with. But yeah, as I just mentioned, I managed to turn it into (very fun and pleasant) curiosity.

* Did you become a "believer"?

Not until I got all my answers and I could not deny it anymore

* If yes, what should we believe?

Sorry, I don't think you can be told what to believe. You have to find it yourself.
But for a starter, take a look at all the religions that are out there, but don't settle with that. Keep on looking.
Read every thread you find interesting in this forum, but don't settle with that. Keep on looking.
Set your intention to find the answer and take a trip to hyperspace and ask questions, but don't... yeah I guess you already figured out I'm going to write

* Are these questions normal?

For me it is very normal.

Could it be that behind DMT is not "one truth for all" and "one message for everyone"?

I dare say, of course not! I believe that each journey is unique and we need to find our own way. There are a lot of tools that we can use and DMT/psychedelics is one of them. But it doesn't suits everyone for sure.

Could it be that anybody gets the truth he deserve?

I don't think there is an external judge in some way other than that you get the truth that you think you deserve. You will get what you settle down with so don't stop trying to find it until you got your answers loud and clear

Could it be that we get a message from DMT in our personal words and personal perception dedicated only for you?

Of course, everything you experience is filtered through your mental structures, memories and all the things that make you the person you are. And since this type of experience is something that goes beyond physical form and normal thinking, it makes it extremely difficult for our egos to grasp without dragging it through the whole machinery a couple of times. And that will give you an experience that is unique for you (but may very well be similar to others). Also, I don't think there always is a message in the sense that we will understand it directly, or it may not be a message at all.
E.g. I have realized that I needed to have all these, for me, very extreme experiences without any answers for a long time. Because I wouldn't had done all the things that have lead me where I am today without them.

Could it be that this message is only understandable by the receiver?

No, I don't think that. I actually think that the very opposite might be true in some cases. That the messages we get will help others more than ourself.

Good luck and remember to have fun! The important thing I dare to say, is that this journey, to find all these answers, is the best thing we can do in our life time.

There is great wisdom in your words (I'm not kidding). Please share more of your findings. I need time to find the right answer.

BTW, the last 30 years I did read a lot of religious, physical, political books. What I recognize is that the world is not so easy as it seems (when you are 18 everything seems so simple...).
Currently my focus is at Buddhismus and Quantenmechanic. I don't dare to say that I understand them fully but some parts make sense and fit to the DMT realm.
Thanks

 

[Naut]

BTW, the last 30 years I did read a lot of religious, physical, political books. What I recognize is that the world is not so easy as it seems (when you are 18 everything seems so simple...).

When I was 18 a majority of my simplicity was annihilated by the fungi. Life went from a youthful linearity to exponentially vivid and complicated real quick.

* If you ever had such situation...how do you interact?

I was a 21st century robot programmed by the "middle-class" suburban culture of America. Kind of like a sim character unaware of it's own ontological relativity I cruised through the continuum naively. Then this first tremendous trip hit me, left in shambles, and I painfully said goodbye to the convincing grasp of my plastic worldview. With that said, this experience was my first wake-up call to the universe's ability to existentially BE and my ability to existentially ponder it with some sort of lucidity. I reacted with a clumsy messianic mindset that I thankfully threw out as I became more critical during the ensuing years. Now-a-days it fascinates me to wonder what it would have been like to live my 20s and perhaps further completely incognizant to any psychedelic experience. What would I be like? Would it be more enjoyable? I don't know... Overall it's friggen bananas going from being freshly sensitive to the gambit of early life only to have to say goodbye shortly when the sacraments come knocking.

I love these integration posts. Y'all have dished some insightful stuff.