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How to know if extraction is producing N,N-DMT or 5-MeO-DMT?

Migrated topic.

RUAware

Rising Star
I've read a few extraction processes, they all used root bark, some mimosa others used acacia, and others used different plants. How do you know which type of DMT gets extracted; N,N-DMT or 5-MeO-DMT? Just to clarify, I don't mean it as the plant contains both kinds of DMT, and if an error is made, or a certain extraction process if followed one gets extracted over the other. I mean it as in, which extraction processes produce which type of DMT? And how do you know?
 
The DMT is contained with in the plant, so your not synthesizing or creating any chemicals in an extraction, your simply separating the DMT from the plant matter.

DMT consists of an indole ring, with a two-carbon side chain at position 1 (the top right corner if the pyrrole ring) at the end of this two carbon chain is an amine nitrogen with two methyl groups connected, so you have an idea of the structure of DMT.

Now, 5-methoxy-DMT, contains this initial structure, only at position 5 of the indole ring a methoxy group (ch30) is connected, these additional atoms, create a unique molecule with its own pharmocology...

These minor substitutions make major differences!

5-meo-DMT is very different from DMT, to give an example look at 4-ho-DMT (psilocin), a simple hydroxy group at position 4 chemically and pharmocologically is the difference between psilocin and DMT.

it's very important to understand dimethyltryptamine and the chemistry behind the extraction before this is ever attempted, it's also important to understand the pharmocological difference between similar compounds...

-eg
 
entheogenic-gnosis said:
Mimosa hostillis and acacia confusa do not contain 5-methoxy-DMT.

I'm not sure I understand your question, would you be willing to clarify?

-eg

i didn't realize 5-meo isnt made with plants the way DMT is
 
None of the commonly extracted plants contain 5-meo-dmt. In fact this is still one of the issues we as a community have been trying to solve, to find a reliable 5-meo-dmt plant source.

In the case we did find a plant that had it, to differentiate between 5-meo-dmt and dmt you can use a tlc kit (click my signature link) or even just ehrlich reagent could already differentiate, check the reagent video database linked in the tlc subforum here for high definition videos showing the difference between 5-meo-dmt and nn dmt
 
endlessness said:
None of the commonly extracted plants contain 5-meo-dmt. In fact this is still one of the issues we as a community have been trying to solve, to find a reliable 5-meo-dmt plant source.

Hmmm...

As for plant sources for 5-methoxy-DMT I have some suggestions, I'm sure there's nothing that's going to be new for you here, but perhaps you could explain why or why not the following plants would or would not be good sources of 5-methoxy-DMT

·Delosperma cooperi (Delosperma hallii; Delosperma harazianum; Delosperma lydenbergense;
Delosperma nubigenum; Delosperma nubigenum; Delosperma pageanum)

·Acacia auriculiformis

·Anadenanthera colubrina var. cebil ( Anadenanthera peregrina )

·Codariocalyx motorius (Desmodium gyrans)

·Desmodium racemosum

·Lespedeza bicolor

·Mucuna pruriens

·Phyllodium pulchellum ( Desmodium pulchellum ) [ 0.2% 5-MeO-DMT ]

·Horsfieldia superba

·Iryanthera macrophylla

·Iryanthera ulei

·Osteophloem platyspermum

·Virola calophylla (Virola elongata (syn.Virola theiodora); Virola multinervia; Virola peruviana; Virola rufula; Virola sebifera; Virola venosa)

·Testulea gabonensis ( 0.2% 5-MeO-DMT )

·Phalaris grass species have been known to produce small amounts of 5-methoxy-DNT.

·Dictyoloma incanescens

·Dutaillyea drupacea, ( 0.4% 5-MeO-DMT in leaves )

·Dutaillyea oreophila

·Tetradium ruticarpum ( Evodia rutaecarpa )

·Limonia acidissima

·Euodia leptococca

·Pilocarpus organensis

There are a few more plants containing 5-methoxy-DMT listed in TIHKAL in the "DMT is everywhere" chapter as well...

And of coarse, though it's not a plant, there's the Bufo alvarius toad, you can extract the 5-methoxy-DMT/5-hydroxy-DMT rich venom from the toad without harming it, now, I'm aware most will not want to own and care for one of these toads, but if you live in an area where they are easily found, and can capture these toads and milk their venom without hurting them or disrupting their lives, then why not the toads?
Is it the 5-hydroxy-DMT present?

Any way, there appear to be many options for a plant source of 5-methoxy-DMT, I'm sure at least a few of them are bound to be viable right?

Though personally I'm not sure what the appeal in 5-methoxy-DMT is...



-eg
 
5-MeO-DMT is the DMT you would find in a Colorado river toad. If you are extracting from a plant material you will always get N, N-DMT, always. Sorry if this was answered already!!
 
PhatShots said:
5-MeO-DMT is the DMT you would find in a Colorado river toad. If you are extracting from a plant material you will always get N, N-DMT, always. Sorry if this was answered already!!

Unless the plant material contains 5-methoxy-dimethyltryptamine, then you will get 5-meo-DMT along with any other present trptamines...

I'm not sure I understand what you were trying to say here...

Bufo alvarius toad venom contains 5-hydroxy-dimethyltryptamine as well as 5-methoxy-DMT... Though these two compounds are also found in a wide variety of plants and are produced by many living creatures.

-eg













There are many many plants that contain 5-methoxy-DMT

·Delosperma cooperi (Delosperma hallii; Delosperma harazianum; Delosperma lydenbergense;
Delosperma nubigenum; Delosperma nubigenum; Delosperma pageanum)

·Acacia auriculiformis

·Anadenanthera colubrina var. cebil ( Anadenanthera peregrina )

·Codariocalyx motorius (Desmodium gyrans)

·Desmodium racemosum

·Lespedeza bicolor

·Mucuna pruriens

·Phyllodium pulchellum ( Desmodium pulchellum ) [ 0.2% 5-MeO-DMT ]

·Horsfieldia superba

·Iryanthera macrophylla

·Iryanthera ulei

·Osteophloem platyspermum

·Virola calophylla (Virola elongata (syn.Virola theiodora); Virola multinervia; Virola peruviana; Virola rufula; Virola sebifera; Virola venosa)

·Testulea gabonensis ( 0.2% 5-MeO-DMT )

·Phalaris grass species have been known to produce small amounts of 5-methoxy-DNT.

·Dictyoloma incanescens

·Dutaillyea drupacea, ( 0.4% 5-MeO-DMT in leaves )

·Dutaillyea oreophila

·Tetradium ruticarpum ( Evodia rutaecarpa )

·Limonia acidissima

·Euodia leptococca

·Pilocarpus organensis

So if you run an extract on these plants, you will not "always get DMT", you will get any DMT Present as well as the 5-hydroxy-DMT and 5-methoxy-DMT.
 
BringsUsTogether said:
entheogenic-gnosis said:
Though personally I'm not sure what the appeal in 5-methoxy-DMT is...

I haven't tried it myself, but some have described it as the holy grail of psychedelics. It was one of the only compounds to give Shulgin a (++++) experience.


I have not worked with 5-meo-DMT enough to make a sound judgement, I've never consumed it in its pure form, I have consumed yagé containing 5-meo-DMT, but that's hardly enough experiance to judge the compound.

(with an unknown but large amount of 5-methoxy-DMT, smoked) I observed the subject pass very quickly into an almost coma-like state. Within seconds his face became purple and his breathing stopped. I pounded his chest, and breathed for him, and he seemed to emerge in consciousness, with the comment, "This is absolute ecstasy." He stopped breathing a second time, and both heart massage and mouth-to-mouth resuscitation was provided. Again, he recovered and managed to maintain a continuing consciousness and achieve a partial recovery. In the awake condition he was increasingly lucid, but on closing his eyes he became possessed with, what he called, "The energy of terror." He could not sleep, as upon closing his eyes he felt threatened in a way he could not tolerate. Three days later, medical intervention with antipsychotic medication was provided, which allowed the recovery of an acceptable behavior pattern in a few more days. --shulgin;TIHKAL;5MEODMT entry

Also, 5-methoxy-DMT can be dangerous when consumed with an MAOI

Sklerov J, Levine B, Moore KA, King T, Fowler D. "A Fatal Intoxication Following the Ingestion of 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine in an Ayahuasca Preparation". J. Analytical Toxicology, Vol. 29, Nov/Dec 2005.
A case of a 25-year-old white male who was found dead the morning after consuming herbal extracts containing Β-carbolines and hallucinogenic tryptamines is presented. No anatomic cause of death was found at autopsy. Toxicologic analysis of the heart blood identified N,N-dimethyltryptamine (0.02 mg/L), 5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine (1.88 mg/L), tetrahydroharmine (0.38 mg/L), harmaline (0.07 mg/L), and harmine (0.17 mg/L). All substances were extracted by a single-step n-butyl chloride extraction following alkalinization with borate buffer. Detection and quantitation was performed using liquid chromatography-electrospray mass spectrometry. The medical examiner ruled that the cause of death was hallucinogenic amine intoxication, and the manner of death was undetermined -erowid


My concerns have always been associated with physical risks...

I'm not opposed to 5-meo-DMT, just cautious...

-eg
 
entheogenic-gnosis said:
endlessness said:
None of the commonly extracted plants contain 5-meo-dmt. In fact this is still one of the issues we as a community have been trying to solve, to find a reliable 5-meo-dmt plant source.

Hmmm...

As for plant sources for 5-methoxy-DMT I have some suggestions, I'm sure there's nothing that's going to be new for you here, but perhaps you could explain why or why not the following plants would or would not be good sources of 5-methoxy-DMT

·Delosperma cooperi (Delosperma hallii; Delosperma harazianum; Delosperma lydenbergense;
Delosperma nubigenum; Delosperma nubigenum; Delosperma pageanum)

·Acacia auriculiformis

·Anadenanthera colubrina var. cebil ( Anadenanthera peregrina )

·Codariocalyx motorius (Desmodium gyrans)

·Desmodium racemosum

·Lespedeza bicolor

·Mucuna pruriens

·Phyllodium pulchellum ( Desmodium pulchellum ) [ 0.2% 5-MeO-DMT ]

·Horsfieldia superba

·Iryanthera macrophylla

·Iryanthera ulei

·Osteophloem platyspermum

·Virola calophylla (Virola elongata (syn.Virola theiodora); Virola multinervia; Virola peruviana; Virola rufula; Virola sebifera; Virola venosa)

·Testulea gabonensis ( 0.2% 5-MeO-DMT )

·Phalaris grass species have been known to produce small amounts of 5-methoxy-DNT.

·Dictyoloma incanescens

·Dutaillyea drupacea, ( 0.4% 5-MeO-DMT in leaves )

·Dutaillyea oreophila

·Tetradium ruticarpum ( Evodia rutaecarpa )

·Limonia acidissima

·Euodia leptococca

·Pilocarpus organensis

There are a few more plants containing 5-methoxy-DMT listed in TIHKAL in the "DMT is everywhere" chapter as well...

And of coarse, though it's not a plant, there's the Bufo alvarius toad, you can extract the 5-methoxy-DMT/5-hydroxy-DMT rich venom from the toad without harming it, now, I'm aware most will not want to own and care for one of these toads, but if you live in an area where they are easily found, and can capture these toads and milk their venom without hurting them or disrupting their lives, then why not the toads?
Is it the 5-hydroxy-DMT present?

Any way, there appear to be many options for a plant source of 5-methoxy-DMT, I'm sure at least a few of them are bound to be viable right?

Though personally I'm not sure what the appeal in 5-methoxy-DMT is...



-eg

Yes those might all be sound suggestions (and so might other plants from this list) but how many of those are available commercially either as plant material or ideally cutting/seeds ? And which can be grown outside tropical regions?

Most people in the forum don't live in tropical regions I think, so so far not much news about it.

I'm definitely not saying it's impossible, just noting that so far nobody came up with an easy option that works for most people, or even at all.. All the 5-meo-dmt I've seen so far has been synthetic or from bufo alvarius toads (which imo would have a questionable ethical component if we were talking about people shipping live toads by mail for people to keep as pets if they dont live in the sonoran desert)

By the way how do you know you consumed yage containing 5-meo-dmt?


PhatShots, what you said is wrong.. While most commonly extracted plants indeed don't contain 5-meo-dmt, there certainly are plants that contain that compound in nature.
 
endlessness said:
entheogenic-gnosis said:
endlessness said:
None of the commonly extracted plants contain 5-meo-dmt. In fact this is still one of the issues we as a community have been trying to solve, to find a reliable 5-meo-dmt plant source.

Hmmm...

As for plant sources for 5-methoxy-DMT I have some suggestions, I'm sure there's nothing that's going to be new for you here, but perhaps you could explain why or why not the following plants would or would not be good sources of 5-methoxy-DMT

·Delosperma cooperi (Delosperma hallii; Delosperma harazianum; Delosperma lydenbergense;
Delosperma nubigenum; Delosperma nubigenum; Delosperma pageanum)

·Acacia auriculiformis

·Anadenanthera colubrina var. cebil ( Anadenanthera peregrina )

·Codariocalyx motorius (Desmodium gyrans)

·Desmodium racemosum

·Lespedeza bicolor

·Mucuna pruriens

·Phyllodium pulchellum ( Desmodium pulchellum ) [ 0.2% 5-MeO-DMT ]

·Horsfieldia superba

·Iryanthera macrophylla

·Iryanthera ulei

·Osteophloem platyspermum

·Virola calophylla (Virola elongata (syn.Virola theiodora); Virola multinervia; Virola peruviana; Virola rufula; Virola sebifera; Virola venosa)

·Testulea gabonensis ( 0.2% 5-MeO-DMT )

·Phalaris grass species have been known to produce small amounts of 5-methoxy-DNT.

·Dictyoloma incanescens

·Dutaillyea drupacea, ( 0.4% 5-MeO-DMT in leaves )

·Dutaillyea oreophila

·Tetradium ruticarpum ( Evodia rutaecarpa )

·Limonia acidissima

·Euodia leptococca

·Pilocarpus organensis

There are a few more plants containing 5-methoxy-DMT listed in TIHKAL in the "DMT is everywhere" chapter as well...

And of coarse, though it's not a plant, there's the Bufo alvarius toad, you can extract the 5-methoxy-DMT/5-hydroxy-DMT rich venom from the toad without harming it, now, I'm aware most will not want to own and care for one of these toads, but if you live in an area where they are easily found, and can capture these toads and milk their venom without hurting them or disrupting their lives, then why not the toads?
Is it the 5-hydroxy-DMT present?

Any way, there appear to be many options for a plant source of 5-methoxy-DMT, I'm sure at least a few of them are bound to be viable right?

Though personally I'm not sure what the appeal in 5-methoxy-DMT is...



-eg

Yes those might all be sound suggestions (and so might other plants from this list) but how many of those are available commercially either as plant material or ideally cutting/seeds ? And which can be grown outside tropical regions?

Most people in the forum don't live in tropical regions I think, so so far not much news about it.

I'm definitely not saying it's impossible, just noting that so far nobody came up with an easy option that works for most people, or even at all.. All the 5-meo-dmt I've seen so far has been synthetic or from bufo alvarius toads (which imo would have a questionable ethical component if we were talking about people shipping live toads by mail for people to keep as pets if they dont live in the sonoran desert)

By the way how do you know you consumed yage containing 5-meo-dmt?


PhatShots, what you said is wrong.. While most commonly extracted plants indeed don't contain 5-meo-dmt, there certainly are plants that contain that compound in nature.



By the way how do you know you consumed yage containing 5-meo-dmt?

Technically I don't, though the decoction was brewed with Lespedeza bicolor leaf/root and Virola theiodora bark (along with peganum harmala seeds and acacia confusa rootbark )

but how many of those are available commercially either as plant material or ideally cutting/seeds ? And which can be grown outside tropical regions?

Actually way more of these plants than you would think can be purchased online, the Lespedeza bicolor is even sold as an ornamental.

I'm always keeping an eye out for novel botanical sources of tryptamines, and often have been able to locate just about any plant I've searched for.

-------

As for the bufo toad ethics, yes, involving a living and feeling creature does complicate the situation, I have known those who lived in areas where where the toads were prevalent, and who were able to obtain decent amounts of 5-meo-DMT...but I can't say I would condone people keeping these as pets simply for drug harvest, there's a good deal of potential for abuse in that situation, and I feel that the animals life must always be respected...so, again, yes, it's a bad idea to want to own one of these unless your qualified to do so, but if you can locate them in nature and "milk" them with out injuring them, it may be a viable source...

However,

the toad venom contains many indole alkaloids, many of which may be difficult to separate from one another...so unless your skilled in certain chromatography techniques, even with bufo toads you won't get pure 5-meo-DNT...

The following compounds were identified in Bufo alvarius venom using paper chromatography:
N,N-dimethyl-5-hydroxytrytamine; bufotenine
N,N-dimethyl-5-methoxytrytamine; O-methylbufotenine; (5-methoxy-N,N-dimethyltrypamine; 5-MeO-DMT)
5-methoxytryptophol
5-methoxyindoleacetic acid
5-hydroxytryptophol
5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid
N-methyl-5-methoxytryptamine
N-methyl-5-hydroxytryptamine
bufoviridine; N,N-dimethyl-5-hydroxytrytamine-O-sulfate
5-hydroxytryptamine; 5-HT; serotonin; enteramine; thrombocytin; thrombotonin
N-methyl-serotonin
tryptophan
bufotalindin; hellebrigenin; (a bufogenin - cardioactive sterol)
Bufo alvarius - Colorado River Toad Sonoran Desert Toad




-----

This may be going a bit off topic though I was fascinated by this article and wanted to share, it regards a new indole alkaloid isolated from the venom of a species of bufo toad:

A new indole alkaloid found in a species of bufo toad venom:

Abstract

A new indole alkaloid named bufobutarginine (1), along with three known bufotenines, namely, serotonin (2), bufotenidine (3), and bufotenine (4), were isolated from the water extract of toad venom. Their structures were elucidated by spectral methods. This is the first time that arginine has been found to be involved in the biosynthesis of bufotenines in parotid of toad. The cytotoxic activities of these compounds have been assayed against A375 and A549 cell lines by the MTT method; however, they showed no cytotoxic activities. A New Indole Alkaloid from the Toad Venom of Bufo bufo gargarizans

----

-eg
 
Isn't 5-MeO-DMT one of the most hated tryptamines? Many people report that it induces almost exclusively bad trips. Erowid 5-MeO-DMT bad trips
Yopo and Cebil are supposed to contain both 5-MeO-DMT and Bufotenin.
Cebil is supossed to be higher in Bufotenin while Yopo is higher in 5-MeO-DMT see this for more info.
I have been using mostly cebil seeds. For me they feel like a weaker ayahuasca.
Bufotenin is also supposed to be harder to extract with normal DMT teks but I never even bothered. Just heat, grind, mix and up the nose.
 
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