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How to use vinegar and sodium carbonate?

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Flutist

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Hey everyone,

SWIM has been looking around the forums for a couple of days and has decided to join. Seems like a sweet place :). Anyways, SWIM has never tried DMT (has tried mushrooms and loves them to death) and very much wants to. None of SWIM's friends have ever even heard of it, so SWIM has been trying to figure out how to extract his own. Most of the teks so far have called for sodium hydroxide, which has been a pain for SWIM to find. He would rather not order it online, so has been searching for alternatives.

Apparently, it is possible to extract DMT using vinegar as an acid, and sodium carbonate as a base. These materials are easily attainable, so this has drawn SWIM's attention. He's been searching the forum quite a bit, but can't find what he's looking for specifically. SWIM is wondering: What is the best tek to use when vinegar and sodium carbonate are being used? Any help is greatly appreciated :d!

Thanks
 
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Hey thanks for the help :). SWIM read through the thread and it was said a couple of times that sodium carbonate will work with A/B extractions but not STB. So could one just follow the Marsfold tek step by step, but replace the Lye with sodium carbonate? :surprised
 
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Yes, but it could be better to add twice as much sodium carbonate as NaOH. I.e. if marsofold says 50g NaOH feel free to use 100g sodium carbonate.

There's not really much "logic" to that, just the fact that too much sodium carbonate is not bad (100g/litre is already plenty!) and will definitely avoid problems with underbasification.

Whenever SWIM did A/B he never really measured how much acid or base he was adding. He was just adding by eye.
 
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Thanks again, that's awesome news :). SWIM still has some questions, and they might be more easily answered if you guys can just critique SWIM's idea of the procedure. By the way, SWIM will probably be using 112 grams of Mimosa Hostilis inner root bark. So, does this sound anywhere near correct? :

1. Break/grind up the root bark as finely as possible.
2. Premix 1 quart White Vinegar and 3 quarts water (This is from the tek, which calls for a pound of bark, so would SWIM use 1/4 the amount of vinegar and water since SWIM is using 1/4 the bark?)
3. Put the root bark into a crockpot, then fill with the water-vinegar solution. Stir well and turn on "high" for 2 hours. Then pour most of the liquid into a 1 gallon glass container.

Question here: The next step in the tek says to "Add the remaining water-vinegar solution to the crockpot again." Does this mean: 1) take the poured-out liquid from my 3rd step, and pour that back in? OR 2) should I still have some vinegar-water left over which has not been in the crockpot?

4. Heat this again for 2 hours, then pour off the liquid into the same 1 gallon glass container. Discard the rootbark and allow the vegetable particles in the glass container to settle to bottom overnight. Then pour liquid into an empty 1 gallon glass wine jug, being careful not to pour in any sludge at the bottom. Discard sludge, keep contents of wine jug.
5. (This is where the Lye is usually called for) The tek says to add ~70g of NaOH to a pint of warm water and then slowly add the solution to the wine jug and mix. Now, following Infundibulum's advice, 140 g of sodium carbonate should be more than sufficient to replace this NaOH. So could SWIM just mix in ~140g of sodium carbonate into the wine jug and mix? SWIM's heard you can add the sodium carbonate directly (but slowly and carefully) to the mix instead of putting it in water and then mixing it. Is this true? And will this step work?
6. The tek calls for 275 ml of Naphtha to be added to the wine jug. Then enough warm water until the solution is an inch below the top. Now mix everything together and then leave it undisturbed for 3+ hours. Apparently, two layers should be visible. A glass turkey baster is used to suck up the top clear layer into a glass baking pan.
7. Cover the glass baking pan with plastic wrap and place it in freezer for 3 days. Remove pan, quickly lift plastic wrap and pour naphtha off through the exposed corner. Reseal the corner of the pan. Allow the pan to reach room temperature. Remove all plastic wrap, allow the crystals to dry overnight, and scrape with a razor blade.

If anyone was kind enough to actually read all of that, thank you very much lol. Please point out any parts that are wrong, SWIM is hoping to to the best job he can on his first go. The steps included here left out the ammonia wash from the Marsfold tek because SWIM has heard bad things. Anyone have any tips on how one should wash it?

Also, SWIM has read that it's a good idea to evaporate down to ~10% of the original Naphtha volume, and then freeze it. Is this true for this tek?

Remember, this is all based on extracting the DMT from 112 grams of rootbark, so if the amount of stuff used is way too high, please point that out too lol :)

Thank you very much for the help so far :d
 
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on the first question about which water to add again in the vinegar step, SWIY has to basically filter after the first boil, keep the liquid separate somewhere, and then add a fresh water and vinegar mix and cook again.. do this for a total of 3x, then put the liquid together, discard solid. If its too much liquid in total, just put on a pot on low boil for a while to reduce to desired amount.

yes SWIT can mix the sodium carbonate directly but notice it will probably foam a lot in the first moments, because of the reaction between sodium carbonate and vinegar, so add slowly. When it neutralizes (reaches ph 7) it will stop foaming, and then SWIY can add the rest faster.

275ml of naphtha seem too much for only 100g of MHRB. Maybe use half the amount, but do a total of 4 or 5 pulls, so if SWIY uses 150ml naphtha, in total SWIY will use maybe 600 or 700 ml naphtha.you Evap to maybe one quarter of original amount and then put in the freezer, yes! This is very important, otherwise the naphtha wont be saturated enough and not all the dmt will precipitate. Ah and, when mixing the solvent together with everything, dont mix too strongly/shake, or else you will get an emulsion (foamy layer on top of the acqueous liquid, that does not separate perfectly with the naphtha). So stir or mix steadily but softly (Actually now that I think about it, I dont know if emulsions form with sodium carbonate A/B or only when using lye.. in any case better be careful when mixing). It wont take 3 hours to separate, maybe a few minutes, so you should do the stir/let separate routine a few times over and over before pulling the naphtha out.

When you're sucking the solvent layer off, in the end when the layer is thin, it will get tough to do it accurately without pulling the basified liquid together. In this case, leave some naphtha inside and just mix with the next pull. In the last pull if there is a bit left, doesnt matter.. Better not having any remains of the basified liquid with your naphtha.

Another issue there in SWIY's plan is freezing in a baking pan. To pour the naphtha out, it will probably make a mess as the naphtha 'sticks' to the container and runs down the side as SWIY pours it. Maybe its better putting each pull in some sort of straight whisky kind of glass or mason jar or something, where SWIY can pour off easier. In any case, do a 'test run' with water in SWIY's container and see how clean SWIY can pour off the liquid from it.

This last step after freeze precipitation to remove crystals is troubling to some people, so there are many different ways. Some people quickly scrape the crystals in the container with the naphtha still inside and then pour through filter, others pour the naphtha out first, let it reach room temperature and then scrape, others pour naphtha out, turn the container upside down with some support to keep space for air, and put a fan next to the container so that any remaining solvent will drip out, and then they scrape after its dry. It happens to some people that when they get the stuff out of the freezer, it starts melting back together, or melts into the filter when they filter. If anything like this happens to SWIY, dont throw anything away, the actives are still there and can be recovered, dont worry. But most likely it will all work fine :)

Dont make ammonia wash! With sodium carbonate, SWIY's much safer, unlike when teks use lye. After SWIY's got the crystals, if he feels they are not clean enough he can recrystalize them, but most likely it will be fine.
 
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