In search of a Caapi substitute

[Jagube]

Over the last few months I've been experimenting with various preparations made from P. harmala seeds in search of a product that would be like B. caapi - in terms of the experience, healing, long term effects and so on.

The first experiments were with raw Rue seeds as well as crude brews made from the seeds.
While it worked very well to activate the DMT, it was quite different:
- The taste was much worse
- It lasted much longer
- It gave me a certain type of lightheadedness (presumably due to the harmaline and potentially other alkaloids)
- It had a certain 'sweetness' to it - it was easy to handle and made me laugh. I missed the seriousness and depth of the vine.

Then I learned to do Manske extractions and worked with the mansked extracts for some time.
I loved them, but:
- It still lasted long
- It still gave me lightheadedness
- The sweetness was still there, probably even more pronounced.
- It felt very clean, almost artificial.

The good thing is I was able to separate the harmine from the harmaline to an extent, and drink mixes with a higher harmine to harmaline ratio. Those mixes had a shorter duration, less lightheadedness and less sweetness. This was a significant improvement.

Then, after a couple of failures, I learned how to reduce harmaline to THH. The addition of THH was another improvement:
- It added depth, seriousness and a Caapi-like afteglow
- It sorted the issue of "what to do with the spare harmaline?"

However, the problems were:
- It still felt too clean, or "artificial"
- The addition of THH seemed to add an unpredictability factor; The same dose would work great one time, and not activate the DMT another time.
- When I took harmine and THH with no harmaline, the experience was very bleak, lacking depth.

The last bit prompted me to brew up some crude Rue tea and have a bit of it with every serving.

My conclusions:
- Harmine should be the main MAOI. Perhaps 150mg per serving.
- THH is great to have, 100mg per serving is good.
- It's good to have a touch of harmaline. 50mg-ish is good.
- It's good to have other alkaloids for a fuller-spectrum feel.

This has led me to the following recipe:
Take 300g of rue seeds. Cook, freebase, wash, dry.
Of the freebase alkaloids, put roughly 1/3 aside. These will be for the harmaline and other alks for a full-spectrum feel.
Manske the remaining 2/3. Do a zinc reduction, base, wash, dry.
Combine the two powders: full alks + Mansked/reduced alks.
Dissolve in vinegar for a drinkable, easy-to-dose 'tea'. I like the concentration of 5ml per serving.

This should give you roughly the ratios: 150mg harmine : 100mg THH : 50mg harmaline : 50mg other alks.

 

[Sabnock1990]

"it was easy to handle and made me laugh. I missed the seriousness and depth of the vine."

Then you haven't taken enough Rue, trust me, Rue is way more serious and kick ass than Caapi, i assure you. I've worked extensively with Rue, the way to work with Rue ime is to either go for 4+ grams, or take 3 to 4 grams regularly and allow the Harmala reverse tolerance to build up which takes you into heavy Harmala dosage territory without having to take so much actual Rue. I really don't understand why people don't think Rue isn't as serious as Caapi other than them not working with Rue enough, Rue is waaaaaaay stronger than Caapi, and way more disciplining as well. I usually build up the reverse tolerance, i take the same dosage repeatedly/regularly (at least a few times a week) until i'm in heavy Harmala territory and only needing to use 3 to 4 grams of Rue, or less as the reverse tolerance continues to build, i can use 2 grams of Rue eventually for a heavy heavy Harmala dosage if i build up the reverse tolerance enough. Plus the side-effects go away as the reverse tolerance is built up, no nausea, vomiting or diarrhea, the bodyload cleans up significantly, the motor function impairment is reduced so moving around isn't difficult, there's no motion sickness or lightheadedness or dizziness, it's awesome.

I do agree though that a higher Harmine to Harmaline ratio is more desired, however i do enjoy my Harmaline, so i do like a good bit of Harmaline as well. I can clean up how the Harmaline feels by the addition of 4 grams of Lemon Balm (check out the Lemon Balm, it goes wonderfully with Harmine and Harmaline, and Rue and Caapi), so how Harmaline feels doesn't necessarily bother me since i can alter how it feels.

I also agree that purified/isolated Harmala extracts feel like isolated compounds, almost artificial, but that can be solved by adding the isolated compounds to some admixture plant or mixture of plants, which gives the isolated compound some full spectrum compounds to synergize with and make it feel more natural/plant-like, did it last night with 300mgs of Harmine and Lemon Balm, it was really nice, which btw Harmaline definitely is way stronger than Harmine, 300mgs of Harmine wasn't bad at all and no side-effects noticed, even 250mgs of Rue or Harmala extract containing Harmaline would have had me purging and unable to really move lol.

Also i use capsules of the Rue seed powder or freebased Rue or Harmala extracts, i don't drink it as a tea, although i do wanna get into tea here soon. Don't know anything about THH though, haven't messed around with it yet, but i haven't found it necessary for the benefits/experiences/understandings i've gained from Rue and Acacia.

 

[padawan]

Interesting. This is very similar to what I will be testing/researching soon (just waiting on zinc and refining some things to lab reagent grade). However I'd rather not work with the full spectrum alks, and will run manske's and isolate harmine, DHH and THH. Unfortunately I can't access caapi anymore for side-by-side comparison, and it's been too many years since my last caapi adventures to recall the effects properly.

One thing I'm curious about, and will test, is using the isolated alks infused into herb (eg. mullein) and exploring the differences - all in search of the perfect changa blend. Vaporising/combusting each alkaloid with a herb might be qualitatively different to the pharma MOA. I plan on infusing each alk into mullein using warm IPA and testing them separately on their own. Might try different herb admixtures too - such as the lemon balm that ShamenStamen mentions. Down the track if I also make some enhanced (DMT) leaf, then I can play with the ratios by simply combining the herbs (so long as I combust or vape all the herb then it won't matter that they're separately infused then combined) - will probably use my Volcano Digit to ensure standardisation of the vape.

 

[Jagube]

"it was easy to handle and made me laugh. I missed the seriousness and depth of the vine."

Then you haven't taken enough Rue, trust me, Rue is way more serious and kick ass than Caapi, i assure you. I've worked extensively with Rue, the way to work with Rue ime is to either go for 4+ grams, or take 3 to 4 grams regularly and allow the Harmala reverse tolerance to build up which takes you into heavy Harmala dosage territory without having to take so much actual Rue.

It may be, but then I've had deep experiences with a Caapi-like, high harmine / harmaline ratio even at relatively low doses.

As for building up reverse tolerance, that may be work well for devoted individuals, but doesn't bring it closer to Caapi, which doesn't require it and can produce profound and clear experiences even in those who only drink occasionally.

I do agree though that a higher Harmine to Harmaline ratio is more desired, however i do enjoy my Harmaline, so i do like a good bit of Harmaline as well. I can clean up how the Harmaline feels by the addition of 4 grams of Lemon Balm (check out the Lemon Balm, it goes wonderfully with Harmine and Harmaline, and Rue and Caapi), so how Harmaline feels doesn't necessarily bother me since i can alter how it feels.

I also like what harmaline adds. I find it bright, uplifting and positive, but I like to keep it on the low side for a good balance.

I've been guided to create a Caapi-like medicine from Rue alone, without additional plants, but might give lemon balm a try one day. Thanks for the input.

Don't know anything about THH though, haven't messed around with it yet, but i haven't found it necessary for the benefits/experiences/understandings i've gained from Rue and Acacia.

It's not necessary, but when it's present it adds a whole new dimension to the experience. Very magical and special.

 

[Jagube]

However I'd rather not work with the full spectrum alks, and will run manske's and isolate harmine, DHH and THH. Unfortunately I can't access caapi anymore for side-by-side comparison, and it's been too many years since my last caapi adventures to recall the effects properly.

There is nothing wrong with full spectrum Rue alks, I know people who work with crude Rue tea regularly and haven't experienced any toxic effects. In fact, these alks are said to be beneficial.

The only thing I'd worry about would be use by pregnant women. In the recipe in the OP, full spectrum alks only constitute 1/3 of the dose though. And pregnant women tend to be careful drinking even traditional Ayahuasca anyway.

 

[Sabnock1990]

As for building up reverse tolerance, that may be work well for devoted individuals, but doesn't bring it closer to Caapi, which doesn't require it and can produce profound and clear experiences even in those who only drink occasionally.

Yeah you do have to be pretty devoted/committed to consuming it regularly lol. But i do say, with the reverse tolerance, things clear up with the Rue and you definitely enter pretty much the same territory that you do with Caapi, albeit still flavored a bit differently but there's benefits to building up the reverse tolerance for sure, plus no nausea/vomiting/diarrhea, the body load and headspace clears up, the motor function impairment is reduced, and you can access heavier Harmala dosages without having to take so much Rue, it's really THE way to work with Rue ime, from the impression i've gotten from the Rue.

And yeah Caapi can produce clear experiences without needing to consume it regularly, but if one isn't looking to build up Rue's reverse tolerance, then adding Lemon Balm (or some other admixture plant) to the Rue will clean it up quite nicely, and then it's not an issue. I understand the want for a clean/clear feeling experience though, but if i can use Rue and clean it up, i'll stick with the Rue personally, treats me very well.