Is DMT a "constructive" or "destructive" trip?

[Veritatis cupitor]

Hello All,

-My biggest concern is to discern the differences in experiential analysis of our physical, emotional, and spiritual being before and after consuming DMT. Over all, I would like to know what DMT has done for you. Also, I would like to know if it was either positive, negative, a mixture of both, or just ineffective.
-I cannot say I am a different person or have a different outlook on life after tripping. I realize that the methodology to bring about my experience and any other persons methodology will have marked differences. I am looking for commonalities in experience; including the before and after mind-sets of all who wish to participate in this survey.
-Since the actual, well-funded, unbiased, and unmitigated research into this substance might be far in the future, I look to all those who have experienced it. I am having doubts about DMT's overall worth as a substance. I question whether or not I should risk heavy jail time to extract, posses, and consume DMT. My biggest question is simply, "What do you think the purpose of this hallucinogen is?"
-It's there, it's accessible, it's potent, it's a part of the natural whole. I feel strongly for any and all of nature. I like to believe that there is no wasted space. We, as humans, have used hallucinogens for a very long time. Mainly, for spiritual reasons. Practically, I cannot seem to point out it's usefulness. What can we take from this experience? Is it solely remanded to remain as an experience and nothing more? Is it something foreign or a part of us? Does it give us a glimpse at something new or alien? What does it allow us to see? Are we really seeing anything? Or are the hallucinations just blind, chaotic, aberrations of perception? Is what we experience when tripping simply hallucinations on account of intoxication? Or is it a "frequency" of sorts for our cognitive brains to tune into; a key to some extra-dimension of our existence? Or is it something much more simple and much less romantic? What is it's unbiased and unprejudiced purpose?

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

I have seen both sides.
I have seen people worse off for it and better off for it.

When people approach it with good information and good intentions they tend to be fine. If they are careless or approach it without respect for how strong it can be then there is a chance it will not be good for them.

It is a tool for some, neither good nor bad, just something you can use with intention and thus produce a range of results.

However it can lead to psychosis, though i have seen that arise from 4hoDMT use more often, it can take years for people to work through delusions formed from or during the experience and often their functionality can be harmed, depression and anxiety can also arise. This is not common but not unknown either. It can definitely be abused and cause mental harm in some cases, usually this relates to how belief systems are affected when people take a trip too seriously.

Others never have any issues at all.


In my own case it allowed for personal insight into mental function, the nature of belief and motivation. I cannot say that i have seen it be spiritual in any of the dozens of people i have given it to or seen take it, but i never told them it was spiritual to begin with, i usually give them only a little information so as not to taint their experience with expectation.

I found it helpful personally in terms of the use of insights about my own nature, i also found it made me say wow over and over...

 

[Veritatis cupitor]

I see where you are coming from. I do believe that it is a tool, like a screwdriver. I can hang a picture with it or stab someone. It depends upon my intention. But there has to be some less "broad spectrum" use.
I have seen somewhere, I cannot seem to remember where, that all living things contain some amount of the molecule. If that is the case, then why do only certain plants contain more than others? Why do some plants contain enough to actually extract and use? Like with Marijuana, canabinoids are insecticidal. Which I can see may be a useful quality for certain ecological circumstances. But as for plants such as Psychotria viridis, Acacia confusa, Mimosa hostilis, and many others that contain high concentrations of DMT, I cannot seem to find a practical use other than some ecological necessity. I also know that these plants are around today due to selection; both natural and artificial. I would like to see some "objective" purposes. Subjectively, we can use whatever we want for whatever we want. I guess my curiosity stems from my firm belief in purpose. Why only these plants and not some water lily or fern?

 

[obliguhl]

Construction IS Destruction.

 

[Veritatis cupitor]

Yes, it's a cyclic process. A catch 22. A Tao. I thought it would be a somewhat catchy title.

 

[AlbertKLloyd]

Why some plants and not others?

Chance.

Like how seeds fall where they may, some grow some do not. Why do some seeds fall upon fertile ground? Why do some fall where they cannot grow?

The concept of purpose is itself deeply flawed when it is abstracted. It does not exist objectively outside of when it is applied by human intention.

The question for me is not so much why do some plants have X alkaloid but not others, but HOW do some plants have X alkaloid but not others.

Why is always a loaded and unanswerable question. It is the ultimate koan.

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

Why is always a loaded and unanswerable question. It is the ultimate koan.

why? :lol:

 

[Veritatis cupitor]

Indeed. I seem to struggle with "loaded" questions and dive into the more mystical and esoteric spaces of existence in hopes of alleviating some of the more challenging aspects of life. I used to think that the purpose of said psychedelics are for that very notion. I still think that answers to all of life stem from a loaded question such as this. I only ask to try and fish for some ideas as to how one would find a purpose.
If I were to look elsewhere, where else is there such a profound mystery? Plant human symbiosis is the avenue upon which I seem to coast. Or more likely, stumble around in the dark.
If I stay at the assumption that human and plant alike are the fruit of the Gian soul or universal consciousness, etc, only more questions arise out of searching for answers. I would like to believe that what I and many others experience when taking psychedelics is more than just a flighty state of euphoria. I would like to believe that existence is composed of more than just chemical reactions and that there is a more fulfilling purpose in exploring these dimensions of experience.
-How about I make the question a bit more personable and personal?

What has DMT done for you? What purpose do you impose upon it? What do you suppose it does, if anything at all?

 

[Bill Cipher]

I don't think there are objective answers to any of your questions. I think too that most people here are probably still in a period of active use (to one degree or another), so they may not have any idea of what their effects will be long term.

But ask yourself is a book a good thing or a bad thing? My answer would be that there are worthwhile books which one can encounter, and others maybe not so much. A good one is probably best utilized by reading it and chewing over its contents. A bad one might be better used as a coaster or a paperweight, to throw at your enemies, or to wipe your ass with the pages. Regardless, it's just a tool, and how you choose to implement it is up to you. Likewise, the experience of communing with nature - for some this is a spiritual endeavor; for others, it's just a bunch of green stuff. Are art and music spiritual endeavors? Is sex? For some yes, for others no.

My point is that what moves one person and enables growth, may not do the trick for another. I've seen psychedelics used to great effect as catalysts for growth and change, and I've seen them abused and used as a means of avoiding baseline reality. I've seen their ability to transform and make one question long standing paradigms, and I've seen them used to validate one's pre-existing delusions.

It's a roll of the dice, but essentially (like with most things in life) what you get out of the experience is a result of how you approach it and what you invest. What kind of person are you? Are you malleable, teachable, open to ideas that contradict your own? If so, I believe that DMT can be enormously transformative. If not, it's likely to be just another experience that may in the moment blow you away, but not have a long lasting impact.

 

[Veritatis cupitor]

I see. That is a very great way to put it. I have to say that without experiencing hyperspace, I wouldn't have the fervent desire for answers. I could still be floating in an inexplicable state of ignorance. Which is an alley I wish sometimes I could nestle into.

I do understand that the Occam's Razor for any question is: "It depends." Most everything one experiences is open to interpretation, because interpretation is communicating experience.

Whether or not something is real, "depends." I try to conceive a holistic view of existence and try not to leave any aspect of the whole unevaluated. I try to discern reality from hallucination when under the influence of DMT. I look at a print on my wall sober, and then I look at it high. It's obviously the same print, but when I'm high, it takes on a new light. So if any changes are being made, they are being made inside. Perhaps a purpose of DMT is to give one a different interpretation of reality. But if one's perception of reality is so easily changeable, what is so real about it?

What this does is opens an entirely new dimension of thought and leads me to believe that one use of any psychedelic is to show you that all is malleable and open to interpretation. If I wanted to I could easily say that Blue is Green. But when it comes to another individuals take on it, I would sound crazy. If that's the case then reality should be as I or any one else makes of it. Not necessarily physically, but psychologically. But when I take DMT, reality is once again out of my control, like a dream. All I can do is observe.

When I first took DMT, I was gone. I felt that my "mind" was absent from my body. I was standing in a kitchen, I think, and was completely, utterly GONE. I truly thought I had died. The biggest thing about that experience was that every time I took it afterwards, it was no where near as profound. I've questioned whether or not this was a transformation in my mind or simply a transient state of bliss that just took me by surprise and I was just in shock.

Trying to question something like that is like trying to question a dream. Maybe hyperspace is a dream. A waking dream. But how does that leave reality? Of course this train of thought seems to be cascading into a philosophical inquiry about reality. But that is my question in general.

When I asked about the purpose of DMT, I ask how does this affect "you" being the reader. Not a general purpose of the compound. I would just like to hear some other takes on what the purpose of DMT is for other travelers. I'm just trying to create a sort of index of shared assumptions about hyperspace to better understand what I've been getting myself into.

 

[Entheogenerator]

For starters, many people seem to feel that ayahuasca tends to be more therapeutic or beneficial than vaporized DMT, as vaporized DMT is such an abrupt experience it can be hard to "bring back" any insight from the experience. But I do not have much experience with ayahuasca brews, so I cannot say from experience whether or not this is true.

As far as the purpose of DMT: I did not create it, and I was not there when it was created. Therefore, I cannot say with any sort of certainty what it is "for" or what it's "purpose is". For me, it has been a useful tool for spiritual and personal development, for others it may serve some other purpose.

Personally, vaporized DMT has proven to have some significant effects on my life outside the journey. One of the largest and most tangible effects it has had on me is helping me to overcome some personal fears, primarily fears of relinquishing control. Now it could be said that this effect is merely from practicing letting go by vaporizing DMT, and not from the experience itself. I cannot say for certain whether this was caused by the experiences themselves or if it was just caused by the practice of letting go of control by vaporizing DMT, but either way it has been beneficial in other aspects of my life.

I also feel like I should mention that DMT and other psychedelics have allowed me to find my spiritual side, which was all but nonexistent before. I am not religious, and I don't necessarily have any set-in-stone belief system in place. I guess it has allowed me to be more agnostic or open to possibilities. I used to be somewhat of a devout athiest, and any suggestion of spiritual or mystic theories/beliefs made me angry and hateful. My experiences with psychedelics have shown me that I don't know everything, and that there are infinite possibilities which are all equally plausible. Experiencing such profoundly different perceptions and thought patterns basically brought me to the realization that there are many different ways to look at things, and that it was foolish of me to have said which ones are "correct" and which ones aren't. I never realized just how much our experiences, ideas, opinions, and preexisting beliefs can effect the way we perceive things until I started exploring the possibilities of plant-sourced psychedelics.

I can't say whether DMT will be beneficial for you. Only you will be able to determine that. But I can say that it might, and that it has been very beneficial to my spiritual and mental well being. I would also be willing to bet that it has done the same for many other people as well.

 

[anrchy]

When I first took DMT, I was gone. I felt that my "mind" was absent from my body. I was standing in a kitchen, I think, and was completely, utterly GONE. I truly thought I had died. The biggest thing about that experience was that every time I took it afterwards, it was no where near as profound. I've questioned whether or not this was a transformation in my mind or simply a transient state of bliss that just took me by surprise and I was just in shock.

Maybe question whether or not you have taken a dose large enough to take you the same distance. I actually found that once my shock had subsided over time and use, I was actually able to go farther. "Don't give in to astonishment" is a quote that resonates with this idea. Believe it was TM that said that.

Seems like the questions you have are the unanswerable. Also they are very common amongst those that have just joined in on the fun. Overtime I stopped asking those type of questions and instead I now seek answers to which I am confronted with during the experience. Kind of an open mind to whatever you have to show me kind of thing. No expectation.

DMT has helped me tremendously. I have experienced the ill effects, most def due to taking it too seriously and being put in my place. I still struggle very slightly, but my new understanding that I take all kinds of things too seriously has been the cure to my ailment.

 

[Global]

Part of the dilemma, as others have been pointing at, is this framing of the question as "either or". It is a linear approach to what may be figuratively likened to a "quantum" (or holistic) question. When we frame a question as "either or" we expect one answer, but the reality of the situation is that it can easily be both answers at the same time. This has to do with perspective, scope and relativity.

Whether or not something is real, "depends." I try to conceive a holistic view of existence and try not to leave any aspect of the whole unevaluated. I try to discern reality from hallucination when under the influence of DMT. I look at a print on my wall sober, and then I look at it high. It's obviously the same print, but when I'm high, it takes on a new light. So if any changes are being made, they are being made inside. Perhaps a purpose of DMT is to give one a different interpretation of reality. But if one's perception of reality is so easily changeable, what is so real about it?

This example you pose with the print on your wall is in my opinion superficial. I mean no offense when I say this. When DMT is taken in low doses or inefficiently (and it should seem plain "luck" plays into this as well) then simple perceptual distortions can be detected. Up to a certain "level," DMT can show you more of yourself and your own perceptions than anything else. DMT can be quite adept at manipulating light after-images, playing with the voice in your head (i.e. echoing your personal thoughts), etc...however there is something of a tipping point when one gets "far enough". At this point, it becomes less about those things and more about this seemingly freestanding autonomous reality that seems to have extraordinarily little to do with "you" or consensual reality. At some point it goes from echoing or playing with the voice in your head as your own thoughts to a voice with a narrative entirely separate from any information your conscious mind can project. It doesn't mean that DMT is one way or another, but simply that it is capable of a number of contradictory phenomena which of course furthers confusion on the matter. Perhaps its effects are at times best likened to a spectrum of answers. If you're looking for the "ultimate" just-one-answer, I don't think you'll ever be satisfied.

Another part of the problem is that we can all relate to this notion of distorted perceptions. Even without drugs, you can create visual alterations by staring at certain images for a long duration of time, pressing your hands to your eyes, crossing your eyes, etc...A significantly smaller percentage of us are familiar with the elements that are practically 100% foreign to normal consciousness. Every now and then, if you do it enough at the proper dosages, administered properly (and with good luck) DMT can throw you a bone to suggest that there is quite more to it than distorted perceptions or synthesized memories or the like.

In one instance I can remember, this very elaborate vision was playing out before me. Now, even if you let me sit "there" with a pencil and notebook to take notes and create a narrative while being given the never-given opportunity to rewind freely and make careful observations to try and create a narrative, I would not be able to. The vision was simply too complex, foreign, and seemingly unlanguageable that I would be incapable of fabricating a narrative. Nevertheless, as it was playing out in real time, there was an elfin voice that was accurately narrating and describing the scene as it unfolded. It wasn't gibberish. It wasn't my "language centers" just firing off words, phrases and sentences. It was the perfect verbal accompaniment to the visual scene in such a way that as aforementioned I would be incapable of creating myself. It was done with knowledge and information that I do not have.

I've had encounters with a deity whom I was completely unaware of, yet managed to validate later. It turned out to be contextually appropriate as well in terms of the day it was experienced (a solstice themed experience on the winter solstice). I've had an experience that directly mirrors an afterlife process outlined in the kabbalah of which I was completely unaware. This wasn't some commonly told biblical tale like Noah's Ark or the Garden of Eden or something like that. It was entirely obscure, and it wasn't until months later, upon reading the story that I instantly realized that I had been there, and that esoteric process had happened to me. It is through retroactive validation that the potential realness of DMT comes to the fore; and yet, this is all not to say that it is real, because as I've made explicit at the beginning of this post, I don't believe DMT is any one thing. It's too complex for that. I will reiterate that I think it is most accurate to think of DMT as the simultaneous combination of things or maybe a spectrum of things. It's far too easy to note some things of it that are unrealistic and plant your flag there or to note the parts of it that are realistic and plant your flag there.

 

[Tranzcentral]

Very constructive for me.

It has made me realize this place, this world, our very existence is not as we all think.

To me, DMT can be a key to a gateway, to another place, when i went to hyperspace, i was somewhere where i was sure would only be reserved for gods if their is such a thing.

When i broke through, one thing i forgot to mention in my report on another thread, i felt a shift...its hard to explain, but there was so much energy above my head, it felt and sounded as though the very roof above me cracked, as though something physical moved something, i felt this, and heard it, what it was i can't say, but it must have been the opening, the start of the eventual gateway that slowly but surely approached me..

It can be so hard to explain, i'm still feeling the effects in a great way days later.
I can close my eyes now....and its there...i've opened up a gateway, a door, which i had never seen or known to have previously existed...theres another world out there, and being able to travel without moving with this spice is something i will forever be eternally grateful for.

 

[jbark]

I must answer with a question:

Is love destructive or constructive?

YES.

Is it meaningful or not?

YES.


Will I pursue it in spite of, or because of these aspects?

YES.


I think you get the idea.


JBArk

 

[universecannon]

took the words right out of my mouth jbark

less think, moar smoalk