Is DMT dream fuel?

[ControlledChaos]

I've read about many others having this too, but ever since I began drinking Ayahausca on a relatively regular basis I've been experiencing very vivid dreams. In fact, I'm almost developing somewhat of a consistent "dream world" that seems to actually be similar/the same from dream to dream and some dream lore with a vividness I never experienced before. It really lends some credence to the DMT-dream theory I've seen thrown around. I really think this stuff is dream fuel.

Vivid dreams aren't the only odd thing I noticed after drinking Ayahausca. My hypnagogic visions have also gotten pretty strong to the point where one made me think I was actually hallucinating. I also swear I hear the carrier wave when not on DMT, particularly when I'm very tired. It doesn't feel like a psychosis because I'm not hearing any voices or having any phenomenon other than this carrier wave thing and mostly at night. It doesn't make me scared or dysphoric in of itself but the idea that it could become something more scary does kind of worry me.

What do you think? Is DMT dream fuel? Anybody else have odd experiences after DMT, particularly frequent DMT use?

 

[benzyme]

not likely.
REM sleep (and dreaming) is initiated by ACh (acetylcholine), not DMT... and anticholinergics and inhibitors of cholinesterase are known to be oneirogenic. It's more plausible the MAOI activity in harmala alkaloids are causing upregulation in ACh activity.

 

[StagLady77]

From a neurological perspective, hallucinogens affect the hypothalamus which is the part of the brain that picks up images, sounds, and translates them into your vision. You see an object that bears a shape/texture to a chair, the hypothalamus picks that up and makes your brain go 'Ok I'm looking at a chair'.
Studies have shown that increased use of hallucinogens alters the hypothalamus' ability to differentiate between objects, sounds and visions — we may see under-layers to specific patterns that might not 'normally' be there.

This is just my hunch, I'm not a neurologist or researcher in this, but I would think frequent use of DMT might be responsible for some of those changes (not necessarily permanent, the brain is beautifully elastic), particularly if your DMT experiences usually bear signatures such as the carrier wave. It's not dissimilar to the indole phenomenon, where people can smell DMT for no reason and are in a place where it's unlikely someone would be there smoking it. I've had it a few times recently, because I've had a calling to re-enter hyperspace again — but sometimes the smell manifests out of no where.

But to bring this back to your question about DMT as dream fuel, it's now understood that DMT is secreted in minute amounts during REM sleep, and I wonder if regular DMT use imprints itself within REM afterwards. It may be that it is metabolised quickly in a physical sense, but what's to say that neurologically, dreams absorb a remnant of the potency of an Ayahuasca experience? For me DMT feels more than dream fuel (if you believe that that is all dreams are and ever can be, just dreams and not something more peculiar/complicated) — DMT is an education in the hyperreal and its relevance and appearance in countless mammals and plants indicates to me that this molecule has an omnipresence to it that has the capacity to influence the intensity of other windows of consciousness, including that of REM sleep. Maybe this is a case of pouring gasoline on a small fire...

If you're feeling worried that it could manifest into something more unpleasant, my recommendation would be to take a break from it for a while and reintegrate. Love n light.

 

[StagLady77]

not likely.
REM sleep (and dreaming) is initiated by ACh (acetylcholine), not DMT... and anticholinergics and inhibitors of cholinesterase are known to be oneirogenic. It's more plausible the MAOI activity in harmala alkaloids are causing upregulation in ACh activity.

This is indeed more likely, particularly following an Ayahuasca experience. I wouldn't write off DMT completely though, there's still a lot that we don't know about how the brain processes information on psychedelics, after psychedelic experiences during REM/how DMT affects neuroplasticity.

 

[benzyme]

not likely.
REM sleep (and dreaming) is initiated by ACh (acetylcholine), not DMT... and anticholinergics and inhibitors of cholinesterase are known to be oneirogenic. It's more plausible the MAOI activity in harmala alkaloids are causing upregulation in ACh activity.

This is indeed more likely, particularly following an Ayahuasca experience. I wouldn't write off DMT completely though, there's still a lot that we don't know about how the brain processes information on psychedelics, after psychedelic experiences during REM/how DMT affects neuroplasticity.

There is scant evidence, mainly anecdotes, to suggest DMT has any role in dreaming. 5HT signaling during REM sleep is inhibited. Dreams are primarily indexed memories, acetylcholine is reponsible for memory. The connection between ACh and dreams is well documented.
I understand the romanticized theories, several of which have been debunked, proposed by Strassman. But there simply isn't enough evidence to substantiate them. Being in the scientific community, I don't tend to hypothesize or observe hypotheses based on belief, there needs to be evidence, not anecdotes.

 

[benzyme]

Hypnagogia is different altogether, it is not REM sleep. 5HT signaling is still active, it is theta-wave bw activity. Metabolites of melatonin may be produced, a certain notorious one is a CYP2D6 inhibitor (MAOI-A), and it may increase the plasma concentration certain active endogenous trace amines.

 

[StagLady77]

not likely.
REM sleep (and dreaming) is initiated by ACh (acetylcholine), not DMT... and anticholinergics and inhibitors of cholinesterase are known to be oneirogenic. It's more plausible the MAOI activity in harmala alkaloids are causing upregulation in ACh activity.

This is indeed more likely, particularly following an Ayahuasca experience. I wouldn't write off DMT completely though, there's still a lot that we don't know about how the brain processes information on psychedelics, after psychedelic experiences during REM/how DMT affects neuroplasticity.

There is scant evidence, mainly anecdotes, to suggest DMT has any role in dreaming. 5HT signaling during REM sleep is inhibited. Dreams are primarily indexed memories, acetylcholine is reponsible for memory. The connection between ACh and dreams is well documented.
I understand the romanticized theories, several of which have been debunked, proposed by Strassman. But there simply isn't enough evidence to substantiate them.

Not disputing any of the above, you're quite right. I've read some of the research conducted by Nichols, i.e. more likely the kappa opioid receptor, when activated, is responsible for rendering 'psychedelic dreams' for example than say, DMT itself. In which case as you say about memory, the memory of a DMT experience can be so profound that it has the ability to manifest in REM... I guess the metaphysicality of such substances makes it feel as if they have the power to later shape how we dream and the intensity of those dreams. The two would seem inextricably bound. I wonder if evidence will prove or disprove further in future.

 

[benzyme]

I've had really profound dreams about PCP, because I have done pcp in the past. The experiences were uncanny similar. Does that mean my dreams are fueled by pcp? No. The memories tied to it are.

When there does exist enough repeatable evidence to suggest a correlation, I'll certainly shed my skepticism.

 

[Tony6Strings]

Benzyme did you ever write a trip report about your pcp experiences? Link?

 

[benzyme]

I did not, unfortunately.
When I did PCP, the internet was still rudimentary. Windows 3.1 was the common OS.

 

[Tomtegubbe]

What are dreams anyway?

 

[Cheelin]

I did not, unfortunately.
When I did PCP, the internet was still rudimentary. Windows 3.1 was the common OS.

C:\WINDOWS>_

C:\programs\netscape\navstart.exe

 

[murklan]

... Does that mean my dreams are fueled by pcp? No. The memories tied to it are.
...

Yes I think this is a very important point. I believe that our experiences are not 'fueled' by substances but formed into shapes and menings that goes beyont that. Like that the colours on oil paint palette dont say all about the paintings that is made.

 

[benzyme]

What are dreams anyway?

re-indexed memories.

People mistakenly attribute dreams to the inspiration of creative geniuses; as I mentioned, hypnagogia is not the same as dreaming. Tesla, Edison, and Dali all engaged in hypnagogia...the phase of waking consciousness prior to REM sleep.

 

[StagLady77]

I understand the romanticized theories, several of which have been debunked, proposed by Strassman. But there simply isn't enough evidence to substantiate them. Being in the scientific community, I don't tend to hypothesize or observe hypotheses based on belief, there needs to be evidence, not anecdotes.

Benzyme, sorry I dipped out of this thread for a really really long time, it's been a while since I last came onto the Nexus — but I went away and read further, and you're right, the evidence is entirely scant. I hope I did not come across as arrogant in the above, I do have a tendency however to favour the romance, the abstract, the 'instinctive' spiritualist naivety of 'I just know, okay, don't question it!'. Even though that's not always appropriate or as you highlighted, correct!

I have a question though, entirely unrelated and tangential and it's not at all to challenge what you say with regard to DMT not fuelling dreams. But I am interested to know your personal feelings about the changeabilities in science, in general, and in how you feel about evidence as a concept, in this world, in this ever-changing plane. Do you feel that your psychedelic experiences have sometimes challenged your disposition (on avoiding hypothesising based on belief)? Have they ever made you feel empiricism or evidential proof is mere folly in hyperspace?
Or have they reinforced this further and you're more rooted in the scientific community because of what you have experienced?

 

[stone_rebel]

I understand the romanticized theories, several of which have been debunked, proposed by Strassman. But there simply isn't enough evidence to substantiate them. Being in the scientific community, I don't tend to hypothesize or observe hypotheses based on belief, there needs to be evidence, not anecdotes.

Benzyme, sorry I dipped out of this thread for a really really long time, it's been a while since I last came onto the Nexus — but I went away and read further, and you're right, the evidence is entirely scant. I hope I did not come across as arrogant in the above, I do have a tendency however to favour the romance, the abstract, the 'instinctive' spiritualist naivety of 'I just know, okay, don't question it!'. Even though that's not always appropriate or as you highlighted, correct!

I have a question though, entirely unrelated and tangential and it's not at all to challenge what you say with regard to DMT not fuelling dreams. But I am interested to know your personal feelings about the changeabilities in science, in general, and in how you feel about evidence as a concept, in this world, in this ever-changing plane. Do you feel that your psychedelic experiences have sometimes challenged your disposition (on avoiding hypothesising based on belief)? Have they ever made you feel empiricism or evidential proof is mere folly in hyperspace?
Or have they reinforced this further and you're more rooted in the scientific community because of what you have experienced?

soo interesting question ! i was asking myself similar things without knowing how to put in words!
thanks !

and to benzyme: its so important that people with solid scientific knowledge are present in spaces like this, thanks for that as well!

 

[Pandora]

Lots of technical and scientific discussion here but as far as I can tell no direct shared experience so I'll be the devil's advocate.

Not looking at brain structures or neurotransmitters, but just remembering my lived experience . . .

I had a couple dreams that reminded me of DMT breakthroughs but they do seem to be two different beasts.

Yet, when I was using a lot of DMT about 13 years ago, that was the one and only period in my life where I actively and regularly achieved an authentic lucid dreaming state multiple times.

-Pandora

 

[fink]

What are dreams anyway?

re-indexed memories.

Memories to me seem more focused on the past. Dejavu not withstanding. Where as dreams bring me into the realm of future echoes far more often than re-indexed experiences.

Or another way to think about it. I am younger than I am right now in all my memories. In my dreams I am in the present or older than I am today.