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Is Locales a better way to try to piece together a common shared experience?

Migrated topic.

Metashaman

Rising Star
So I am trying to research entities as it is REALLY interesting and fun.

However, it does seem like the entities are all over he place with a lot of the greaters reappearing, but many of the lesser being extremely random.

I started listening to a speech comparing NDE's and OBE's that they both have places that if people go they will have a similar experience.

While DMT is a more random, maybe it just means there are more "locales" to go too.. and we have 3 common ones. The waiting room chrysanthemum and "the light". However NDE and OBE also have the "light".

Should we be looking at similar places rather than just entities?

Thoughts?
 
Interesting idea. :)

I wouldn't call the waiting room or the chrysanthemum a locale personally, though "the light" is definitely a place. They are more like a pre-trip experience imo, you can open your eyes at that stage and you are still definitely here, not there.

There's "the room" (not the waiting room, but the room with walls), "the tunnel", "the temple" and "space"... very common locales for me. But I've run across street carnivals and visited planets and forests too.

Then there's the warped and twisted environments that make 0 sense in the common understanding of what we see around us. Strange and wonderful, warped things... all encompassing shapes and machines and landscapes that feel like they are being oscillated randomly. Often with ebb and flow. I call that place hypersoup. I dunno what other people call it, or even if they experience it too. Sometimes I run into random entities in the hypersoup, but these things are just creatures, mostly ineffable.
 
Monroe and Moore did this with the OBe and NDE respectively. They mapped out the places. It seemed like people went to one of many, but it seemed as if the places matched up then the experiences seemed to as well. It may not be the same entity, but the interactions seemed similar.

Thanks for chatting the other morning too!
 
After entering about 30 sets of keywords and entities and locales. It does seem like the Locale thing may have merit. Seems like places are more commonly similar, control panel. Than the entities met.

Once I have enough data to splunk I will post results :)

~Fate/EssCee/MetaShaman
 
Although I don't have much experience in DMT usage and commonalities between the places you go to during DMT use, my friends and I have tried creating the same visuals using LSD. After a couple different attempts, we were able to create the same visuals across four different people by spending the previous day together in attempts to set our emotions and minds at the same place. Then we made a 10-hour playlist of music, laid down on a bed, turned the lights off besides the dull alternating of LED lights, played the music, and stared at a ceiling with uniform patterns on it. Although our visuals were not 100% the same the entire time, we found a common pattern to our visuals and very common themes all through. Although this is much more rudimentary than DMT and is not nearly as intense of an experience, maybe this small scale usage of LSD to create similar visuals could provide similar results with DMT?
 
I've always been fascinated with the idea of locale withinthe dmt experience (well not always). More than entity encounters i have definite revisited locations within hyperspace. The idea of hyperspacial cartography is awesome but i don't think it's novel especially. Interesting but not new.
 
Astro Nova said:
Although I don't have much experience in DMT usage and commonalities between the places you go to during DMT use, my friends and I have tried creating the same visuals using LSD. After a couple different attempts, we were able to create the same visuals across four different people by spending the previous day together in attempts to set our emotions and minds at the same place. Then we made a 10-hour playlist of music, laid down on a bed, turned the lights off besides the dull alternating of LED lights, played the music, and stared at a ceiling with uniform patterns on it. Although our visuals were not 100% the same the entire time, we found a common pattern to our visuals and very common themes all through. Although this is much more rudimentary than DMT and is not nearly as intense of an experience, maybe this small scale usage of LSD to create similar visuals could provide similar results with DMT?


I am all for trying to explain it all. While I don't believe over there is "over there", I am not willing to throw it all away to "chemicals". They can tell you why you enter the other space, but I don't think they can explain the entities or experiences once you are there. IE, I can tell you how to open the door, but not what is behind it.

There are 10's of thousands of reports. I made a DB to put all the ER's and Entities and Locales in so eventually I can do a data dive :). I don't want to make any "claims". Honestly I just want to see what the data tells me eventually, rather than taking a stand. Seems like a cleaner quest. The entry is taking forever so only on my 20th or so report, though over 50 entities so far. (DMT Monster Manual in sig). This is my current task to get it to 100+ before June.

The other downside is many experience reports don't explain the rooms in very much detail. I haven't tried this yet, but also interested in anyone who believed the space was sentient and almost like the "elf queen" like director, was an orchestrator of the experience, where it generated entities to tell the story it wanted to.

So far entities other than the ones projected via McKenna into society seem highly variable. The McKennian ones (floating multicolored drones) Machine elf, Elves, Gnomes, The dead. Seem more common.

I'll see where this gets me after 100 entries. It is publically shared now, but will push a report here later when we do an analysis of entities.
entities.png


I have a hard time of not pushing against the unknown, as this may be the last realms that need a true "MAP" as Mckenna would call it based on his love of Jung. Also I think it is hard to take one claim and put anything against it, (even my own, extremely powerful and seeming so true) so using the 10k we already have out across the multiple sites may or may not pan out information. At a minimum though it may help others who have the same questions, but not the same drive (more work than a second job on some days).
 
null24 said:
I've always been fascinated with the idea of locale withinthe dmt experience (well not always). More than entity encounters i have definite revisited locations within hyperspace. The idea of hyperspacial cartography is awesome but i don't think it's novel especially. Interesting but not new.

This has been done on a mini scale, or between friends or close groups, but I haven't seen any real analysis on the masses. I think the wiki has done a good job here, it's what started my fascination with the experiences themselves.
 
After having about 30 freebase trips, with roughly half of them what can be classified as breakthrough of various intensity, I am a bit sceptic about whole entity classification thing.

Lets say there are two possibilities:
1) We see other dimensions while tripping and there are sentient beings
2) It's all in your head, dude!

So far, based on what I've experienced and read and watched, I can't say for sure whether it is 1 or 2. It's basically "is there a god" type of question. Nobody can prove if god exists or not for sure. I think it doesn't even matter which possibility is true, because I am pretty sure we all perceive things slightly differently in hyperspace, through a filter of perception, just like in real life. We describe them differently, because to be able to describe you have to first realize what you have seen, integrate it, turn images and emotions into words and familiar concepts.

We all come from different cultures, surroundings, upbringing. Some might describe some locale like Aztec pyramid or some entitiy like Anubis. But, I have yet to see anything remotely resembling something from human history or society. What our poor brains are good (and bad) at, is finding a pattern in a picture. So we see snake, where something is long and thin and moves snakelike. We see buddas and christs in naked fat dudes with or dudes with nimbus and beard. What I am trying to say that when trying to classify hyperspace one must remember that experience report he reads, come from people who perceive things very differently.

I've had trips, which left me going "holy shit" and "I can't believe where I've just been" for quite a while. I vividly remember start of my 2nd last trip, after flying through the usual introductory loading animation, first thing I encountering was an alive being, which was multicolored, had a lot of eyes all over its body and this being was rising up to have a look at me. It was as real as this moment of time, when I am typing this. Ever more real. I remember the shock which "hyperspace me" experienced when realizing that he is seing different sentient form of life. We hung out with that hyperspace dude and he shown me some things and everything was fine. And I can't really classify that dude as a jester or elf or god, nothing of his behavior stood out. I have yet to meet entity which could be classified as god, maybe because I'm not really looking for them.
Still, I can't tell for sure whether DMT is really attuning us to another dimension, or we just talk with our other brain, which we can't communicate in human speech with.

I also noticed some oddities about DMT:
- Sometimes it like to dance, to a good music. Just like whole space is dancing and pulsing to te music sometimes and rooms are switched when music goes from one part to another. Entities are also frequently dancing or marching to the music. You can feel when molecule likes the music.
For example I've tripped twice to this track:
And both times it was kind of mellow loving kind of trip where I was shown very beautiful spaces, about some of which I could say I was here before. I recommend this music, though it's a bit short for a full trip so you might want to queue something else.
- Recently I have started to have experiences, that when I am with hyperspace aliens, first it's a bit of shock but then I forget about our reality and just live alien life for a while, joining them in their activities.
- Frequently I appear at what can be only described as hyperspace flat, where usually two hyperspace dudes live. Sometimes I am in their kitchen, sometimes in living room. You could also describe it as a hyperspace laboratory I guess, it place looks clean and white-ish, but I get strong feeling that I am in their living space.
 
I meant to add this too:

TL;DR - it's often very hard for me to find words to describe what happens in hyperspace, it's hard to bring any structured information from there, I think classifying entities or locales in "classic" way is too simplistic to get any useful information out of such classification.
 
Exitwound said:
After having about 30 freebase trips, with roughly half of them what can be classified as breakthrough of various intensity, I am a bit sceptic about whole entity classification thing.

Lets say there are two possibilities:
1) We see other dimensions while tripping and there are sentient beings
2) It's all in your head, dude!

Well it is a question I think 10's of thousands don't have the ability to dive into to be honest. It is the most profound question on DMT. What is Hyperspace?

Once you get to Descartes you can't even believe that you are perceiving reality properly. If you can't claim to have reality pinned down, how can we even bother with things like Dream or DMT states?

Data.. Lots and lots of data :p, I have pages of data points per report.

I happen to agree that people perceive things differently, seems to be the same in NDE and OBE as well, there are patterns that aren't specific to entities or locations, but rather "story patterns".


Which is what made gathering the data ok. I see a lot of repeated McKenna entities, very few other entities repeat, though it does seem to line more with a Jungian style (Ruler, Shadow etc) and you will see patterns there. Locales does seem to have a wider net. Out of 18 we had 3 reports of the control panel room, that isn't enough reports to make any claims, but it is interesting.

There are a lot of data points to look at. It the end we may not be able to make any reliable claims, and that is ok. As moving the goalpost doesn't always mean your expectations could be met, the goalpost could be moved by a negative test as well.

I've had extremely intense multi hour hyperspace journey's that are hard to shake off as "all in my head"

The currently held belief so far is: Is it real? Well in some respects yes, you did go through that situation, however what you experienced has 0 effect on reality. - Same take the philosophers of old took on dreams.

However, this topic is old and no one has taken this approach to it. I saw the JH call for entities, but honestly I work with a lot of research for my day job and usually have to form the data for the scientists into usable parts. I'm looking to collect for a couple of years and then run multiple pattern search on it, including the actual words used to describe things. I wrote the app to take in tons of data points and captures new key phrases.

What do I expect? to kill some internal curiosity and have a really fun time digging. To your point about religion. I do believe it is possible these types of experiences go hand in hand, though I'd rather the data tell me if I am foolish to have that possibility. I will try to collect NDE/OBE as well, but may have a harder time gathering those.

Finally, even if there are patterns, it may not be enough to sway myself. But, maybe in 20 years someone figures out a better way to mine and it helps them get started.

Also as a side effect I really do hope to start getting other data out of this, like at what dosages do people start having bad trips and what level of mushrooms seems to start the downward trend? Do Depressed people have a worse time than people who go in happy? (How much does mental mindset actually help by the numbers?) How many journeys are good versus bad and finally what percentage of people who cross have 'reality issues' when they return. (Something the community semi avoids for the happier stories). I think there are a lot of unanswered questions that could now have data points as a result if done right.
 
Frequently I appear at what can be only described as hyperspace flat, where usually two hyperspace dudes live. Sometimes I am in their kitchen, sometimes in living room. You could also describe it as a hyperspace laboratory I guess, it place looks clean and white-ish, but I get strong feeling that I am in their living space.


That sounds awesome but probably difficult to deal with externally. "Why do I go back to this spot?" "Why would something random bring me to the same place over and over?"

I have something similar on Aya.. There is a dark corner of space she uses like a TV room, I can see stars in the distance, but in front of me is almost like an orchestrated TV show, where my questions get answered when they aren't Yes or no. I'll see entire long plays that teach a lesson and I am not sure if the actors are there, or part of her "display".

That is what made me wonder about the rooms too (locales) as it very well could be those locations are like a movie director, you need a lesson. The room reacts to make sure you get it by generating what it needs when it needs it. <-- That would be really damn hard to prove.


Thanks for the discussion, loved it!

"Maps are what is needed to navigate this new space" - Terrence Mckenna

It's been 40 years and we don't have this yet.
 
Okay I‘m now getting into your thread and Idea about doing research!

I‘ve to say that you‘re supposed to be a really brave guy and I would appreciate your work and also would like to help you with this task, although the fact that everyone perceive and interpret things differently would make my help a useless and unnecessary variable which would most likely affect the data of yours...

I tend to say 2. it’s all in your head
but if we come to the main question 1. is there a god
I would say yes, there should be no question if there is one, because we wouldn‘t be here - dmt - wouldn’t be here if there really is no god..
Like you can write self organizing programms but I doubt they could themselves so there somehow must be something in here or there or somewhere....
If god is still related to us, if the entities are related to god - if dmt is related to god... we really don‘t know and that‘s the question I ask myself like non-stop...
DMT makes this god question even more complex I think - but I‘m very sure there is something like a source - whatever it is - I think we will probably never really know!

But I would love to support you with this task and even it is the way I doing something similar myself and we are getting to studies(which could be compared again) - but to the point where I have been now - is that the nexus was founded for this collaborative work originally and the most people stopped at some point and I don‘t know if it is because things were going this weird that they said sth. like I‘m already more into this than I ever wanted - I‘m going to crack the meaning of the word „insane“ - or like they said I can‘t do anything with the experiences I had they‘re so weird like I don‘t know what to do with that data or or or

Here should be at least 1000 people that could say something to that 1. or 2. question and there are so many really cool guys and girls here which I would love to encourage have a meeting in here or in real life but anyway it doesn‘t happen....
We can learn for ourselves or whatever but I‘m really start to beliving that there is no way to realize anything throughout DMT without the realization thing itself - but nothing more, which tends again to the 2. answer...

If it‘s the first - god‘s would probably play with us, show us things, terrify us the bone, make us presents, talk with us whatever (maybe rape us like some reports stated) - dunno which gods and probably don‘t want to -
But they would never give us the chance to understand even a glimpse of that - so they weren‘t gods or?

If it‘s all imagination why so many people met similar entites if not the same entities?

That‘s the point I‘m stuck for now and I‘m really not sure, because I haven’t done DMT yet, if I want to know such things because I would most likely aren‘t capable of understanding them as they are...
I would love to blast of anyway and if it‘s only a once in your lifetime thing but I really starting to believe that this tool isn‘t really one, is it? (- depends for sure on what someone is questioning about(so for an drug/spiritual unaware person it would give a huge new impression - bit for an „average“ type of shrooms/lsd user, too??)
 
Camponotus said:
Okay I‘m now getting into your thread and Idea about doing research!

I‘ve to say that you‘re supposed to be a really brave guy and I would appreciate your work and also would like to help you with this task, although the fact that everyone perceive and interpret things differently would make my help a useless and unnecessary variable which would most likely affect the data of yours...

I tend to say 2. it’s all in your head
but if we come to the main question 1. is there a god
I would say yes, there should be no question if there is one, because we wouldn‘t be here - dmt - wouldn’t be here if there really is no god..
Like you can write self organizing programms but I doubt they could themselves so there somehow must be something in here or there or somewhere....
If god is still related to us, if the entities are related to god - if dmt is related to god... we really don‘t know and that‘s the question I ask myself like non-stop...
DMT makes this god question even more complex I think - but I‘m very sure there is something like a source - whatever it is - I think we will probably never really know!

But I would love to support you with this task and even it is the way I doing something similar myself and we are getting to studies(which could be compared again) - but to the point where I have been now - is that the nexus was founded for this collaborative work originally and the most people stopped at some point and I don‘t know if it is because things were going this weird that they said sth. like I‘m already more into this than I ever wanted - I‘m going to crack the meaning of the word „insane“ - or like they said I can‘t do anything with the experiences I had they‘re so weird like I don‘t know what to do with that data or or or

Here should be at least 1000 people that could say something to that 1. or 2. question and there are so many really cool guys and girls here which I would love to encourage have a meeting in here or in real life but anyway it doesn‘t happen....
We can learn for ourselves or whatever but I‘m really start to beliving that there is no way to realize anything throughout DMT without the realization thing itself - but nothing more, which tends again to the 2. answer...

If it‘s the first - god‘s would probably play with us, show us things, terrify us the bone, make us presents, talk with us whatever (maybe rape us like some reports stated) - dunno which gods and probably don‘t want to -
But they would never give us the chance to understand even a glimpse of that - so they weren‘t gods or?

If it‘s all imagination why so many people met similar entites if not the same entities?

That‘s the point I‘m stuck for now and I‘m really not sure, because I haven’t done DMT yet, if I want to know such things because I would most likely aren‘t capable of understanding them as they are...
I would love to blast of anyway and if it‘s only a once in your lifetime thing but I really starting to believe that this tool isn‘t really one, is it? (- depends for sure on what someone is questioning about(so for an drug/spiritual unaware person it would give a huge new impression - bit for an „average“ type of shrooms/lsd user, too??)

One of the positive things that have come out of the experience reports so far. Even the really bad ones aren't that bad. The only ones that seem to go "way off into the terror zone" are lucid dreaming/OBE additions, for my data I am interested in OBE/NDE and anything else reported to generate extra planer states or entity contact. However, for DMT and "petrification", there doesn't seem to be a real reason for it as long as you are prepared mentally to lose yourself. Not saying there were no bad ones, but I was expecting 1000's of years of loneliness or torment etc. I didn't see that. I saw a few moments of fear, then overcoming. Even most of the bad ones turn out to be lessons (by the authors words). I am only 60 reports in though, so I may eat that phrase later.

I always have to go with it as all in your head..
Both extreme ways suck, but the above is the only one that works for "the here and now":

1. If it's real and we disbelieve we could be blowing off messages from external powerful beings.
2. If we believe and it isn't real then it's psychosis and our own mind is tricking us and taking us off course in life.

I am very much a utilitarian when it comes to psychedelics. The fruit it bares tells me if I should continue and if it's good for my life. So, I go with possibly pissing off external entities and having to keep grounded here :). If it influences me to eat better and I do.. well that is ok. If influences me to quit my job and preach the love of the universe to people. I have to pass as I need a job to feed my kids.

More than happy to get help, the link is in the sig. Or just feel free to throw pointers at me :)

As far as people stopping I inquired. It seems like it is a lot of work to gather data and until now we had just freeform text which is difficult to deal with for trying to compare more than 3-4 at a time.

Also, this one topic that rubs some people the wrong way. It seems like some people are put off by experience reports because they believe it could taint their own experiences or believe many are made up or that people put too much faith into those. I think those are all valid, I just don't see them as a reason to "not at least look" for data points.

Some people can't do this for medical reason (physical and mental), some people are meme'd by it and can't look away, Some people are looking for "answers to deeper questions". When I went looking for wtheck this stuff was or what it meant. I had read a lot. I got nothing definitive other than assumption.

When I see an article on "I know it's real" or "I know it's all in the mind" I never see any real backing data. I will see "these parts of the brain react", but not why I met the same entity multiple times split by months. What I see is some partial data with a lot of assumptions. Not that this would be "real data", but I trust 10000 reports with 1k points of data way more than someone's opinion. Just confirmation bias needs to be kept in check and I need to get these evaluated. Which will take years, but I read them anyway. The goal is partially selfish. I am old and playing memory (the matching game) isn't my strong suit. However, code can do that for me now :)
 
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