Is there a significant difference between Chacruna-based Ayahuasca and Chaliponga (Chaliponga-based Yagé) ceremonies?

[home123]

Hi everyone,


I'm currently looking into retreats in Europe, and I noticed that one of the retreats I'm considering uses Chaliponga (Diplopterys cabrerana) rather than the more commonly discussed Chacruna (Psychotria viridis).


From what I’ve read so far, some people describe Chacruna-based Ayahuasca as being more focused on emotional healing, introspection, and personal psychological work, while Chaliponga is sometimes described as producing a more intense, visual, and visionary experience.


For those who have experience with both:

1. Is the difference actually noticeable in practice?
2. Does Chaliponga really tend to produce a more visual or “cosmic” experience?
3. How much of the experience is determined by the plant admixture versus dosage, preparation, setting, and the facilitator (Taita/Shaman)?
4. If you've worked with both Chacruna and Chaliponga, how would you compare them?

I'd be very interested in hearing personal experiences and observations rather than theoretical explanations.


Thanks in advance.

 

[northape]

Is the difference actually noticeable in practice?

Yes.

Does Chaliponga really tend to produce a more visual or “cosmic” experience?

It depends...

How much of the experience is determined by the plant admixture versus dosage, preparation, setting, and the facilitator (Taita/Shaman)?

This question answers your last one. Your experience depends on many factors, not just a single admixture.

If you've worked with both Chacruna and Chaliponga, how would you compare them?

Work with chacruna for sure. She is called a Queen for a reason. Chacruna is more like psychotherapy, whereas chaliponga is a wild ride into your inner world. Both are medicines and can bring healing, but chacruna understands humans and gives you lessons in a more comprehensible way.

However, the biggest factor here is your retreat and the facilitators there. I would invest all my time and resources into vetting them before going. These medicines are no joke and can heal or destroy. Ayahuasca is like a sharp knife, and how it is used depends on the master. Many of these Western shamans are just into woo-woo spirituality and economic vampirism. In a modern world, you need to be quite sane and discerning even before going to any retreat. Hope this helps.

 

[Jamie01]

I always connected with Chaliponga.

I’ve never had a remarkable experience drinking chacruna so that is going to flavour my preference for Chaliponga.

Chacruna made me more sich however as drinking 50g of leaf vs a couple grams makes a difference I guess.

Chaliponga might be the most euphoric admixture plant I used. People used to think it had 5-MeO-DMT in it but that seems debunked.

 

[Jamie01]

Beyond the western context, the 2 plants are rooted in different styles of currandismo in the Amazon. This is a nice classic read that touches on it somewhat from a legend of the online ayahuasca world.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Unraveling-the-Mystery-of-the-Origin-of-Ayahuasca-Highpine/7f31a6949e964d4ec462ecda16491cf5600926f8

 

[northape]

I always connected with Chaliponga.

I’ve never had a remarkable experience drinking chacruna so that is going to flavour my preference for Chaliponga.

Chacruna made me more sich however as drinking 50g of leaf vs a couple grams makes a difference I guess.

Chaliponga might be the most euphoric admixture plant I used. People used to think it had 5-MeO-DMT in it but that seems debunked.

I've mostly worked with yagé (caapi and chaliponga) myself because finding good chacruna is hard. Yes, drinking a tea made from 50g of chacruna puts a lot of unnecessary stress on your digestion. Honestly, I've had success with it in only about a third of my attempts. Hawaiian chacruna was divine and active at the same dose as chaliponga, but it's long gone. When chacruna works properly, the difference is apparent. It's a much more gentle ride at normal doses with a fine psychological relief similar to the mushroom afterglow somehow. You're fully connected and integrated into life, and you have a new appreciation for it. Acacia could be just as euphoric as chaliponga (if not more), but it's far from deep or good for you in the long run. Yet, most of this applies to a solitary drinker. The modern retreat scene is a mess. You can just as easily get Syrian rue & Mimosa advertised as ayahuasca.

 

[taita]

Beyond the western context, the 2 plants are rooted in different styles of currandismo in the Amazon. This is a nice classic read that touches on it somewhat from a legend of the online ayahuasca world.

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Unraveling-the-Mystery-of-the-Origin-of-Ayahuasca-Highpine/7f31a6949e964d4ec462ecda16491cf5600926f8

Is the full paper available for free anywhere? Looks like an interesting read from the abstract

 

[doubledog]

1. Yes, it is. I would personally drink only chaliponga based brew. If I reserve time for a session, I want intensity. And I like visual style of chaliponga. Its craziness is also a plus, reminds me little of mushrooms.
2. Yes.
3. Every factor counts, imo you should focus mostly on your facilitator, preparation and setting.
4. I had chacruna only twice. On my third session, I tried chali and never went back. Chacruna seems weak to me after that.

 

[taita]

Y'all are making me want to try chaliponga

 

[Jamie01]

Is the full paper available for free anywhere? Looks like an interesting read from the abstract

Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca - Ayahuasca

For decades, researchers have puzzled over the mystery of the origin of Ayahuasca, especially the question of how the synergy was discovered between the

ayahuasca.com

 

[taita]

Unraveling the Mystery of the Origin of Ayahuasca - Ayahuasca

For decades, researchers have puzzled over the mystery of the origin of Ayahuasca, especially the question of how the synergy was discovered between the

ayahuasca.com

Awesome. Thank you @Jamie01 !
Looking forward to the read

 

[Jamie01]

Northape it was opposite for me. Chaliponga was the most available psychedelic to me when I got into all this. The first times I drank or vaped DMT it was from Chaliponga. I never experienced mimosa until a year or two after I first extracted Chaliponga. I kept drinking it often and only saw chacruna like 5 years later. The chacruna was weak to drink and I extracted it. The vaped extract was nice.

 

[dithyramb]

All of acacia confusa, chacruna and chaliponga can be extremely euphoric, but confusa is more of a monotonous euphoric sweetness whereas the others are more complex. It seems for the modern do it yourselfer, Chali is more popular than Chacruna because of the quality of the available material. Back in our day Hawaiian Chacruna was the ultimate, the true queen, at least for me and some other contemporaries. @northape described the qualitative differences in a nice way.

 

[taita]

All of acacia confusa, chacruna and chaliponga can be extremely euphoric, but confusa is more of a monotonous euphoric sweetness whereas the others are more complex. It seems for the modern do it yourselfer, Chali is more popular than Chacruna because of the quality of the available material. Back in our day Hawaiian Chacruna was the ultimate, the true queen, at least for me and some other contemporaries. @northape described the qualitative differences in a nice way.

I've drank traditional caapi/chacruna brews from Hawaii and they've been quite powerful, sometimes even moreso than Peruvian brews

 

[northape]

Y'all are making me want to try chaliponga

Go for it. Chali is an excellent admixture. It's just a bit wild, but some people like it, me included.
I heard a few times in YouTube interviews that potent chacruna never leaves Peru. They use it locally, and we get what's left.
Hawaiian soil is superb for plants. Even Acacia from Hawaii is stronger.

 

[taita]

Go for it. Chali is an excellent admixture. It's just a bit wild, but some people like it, me included.
I heard a few times in YouTube interviews that potent chacruna never leaves Peru. They use it locally, and we get what's left.
Hawaiian soil is superb for plants. Even Acacia from Hawaii is stronger.

That... Makes a lot of sense
Why sell the good stuff to the gringos

 

[Jamie01]

I thought the Hawaiian strain was just a potent clone from McKenna’s collection?

 

[northape]

That... Makes a lot of sense
Why sell the good stuff to the gringos

Haha. Gringos need healing the most. Seriously, it's just how things work. Here, people grow apples in the south, but they are mostly sold locally. They sell some to stores across the country, but those apples are treated, subpar in quality, and only available in one or two varieties. If you want some good apples, you have to go to where they are grown.

 

[northape]

I thought the Hawaiian strain was just a potent clone from McKenna’s collection?

Could be the case too. I have no idea, honestly. It did look different from the Peruvian leaf.

 

[dithyramb]

Looking different doesn't necessarily mean (only) different genetics. Soil type and nutrient density are also central factors.