Whatever the case, that's the leaf I'd love everyone to try. What we get today represents chacruna poorly.
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Is there a significant difference between Chacruna-based Ayahuasca and Chaliponga (Chaliponga-based Yagé) ceremonies?
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You guys have me seriously wanting to try chali. It's a shame it's so hard to find live plants, especially in Australia. Luckily we have decent strength chacruna available but also an array of various Acacia sp which all have their own flavour.
Though I haven't had a chali brew, I have had multiple different sources of dmt admixture plants (chacruna and various acacias). I would say absolutely different plants have their different qualities to the experience. Acacia tends to be more crisp, sharp, HD in it's visual space compared to chacruna. And yet Chacruna will never not have a special place in my heart.
I wholeheartedly agree with @northape. If you're going to a 'held' ceremony you want to make sure the competence of the person holding the space, it's honestly crucial. I don't think they necessarily need years of training deep in isolation in the amazon, however they want to be absolutely very experienced and able to provide the container correctly. I think things get gross and potentially even somewhat dangerous when the facillitator isn't adequately experienced which I've unfornately experienced a few times. This will probably be the biggest determinant of your experience, at least ime. The facillitator will provide the bulk of the context of the setting, can have some influence on the set. All of the factors you list for question number 3 are more important than the specific plants used.
Though I haven't had a chali brew, I have had multiple different sources of dmt admixture plants (chacruna and various acacias). I would say absolutely different plants have their different qualities to the experience. Acacia tends to be more crisp, sharp, HD in it's visual space compared to chacruna. And yet Chacruna will never not have a special place in my heart.
I wholeheartedly agree with @northape. If you're going to a 'held' ceremony you want to make sure the competence of the person holding the space, it's honestly crucial. I don't think they necessarily need years of training deep in isolation in the amazon, however they want to be absolutely very experienced and able to provide the container correctly. I think things get gross and potentially even somewhat dangerous when the facillitator isn't adequately experienced which I've unfornately experienced a few times. This will probably be the biggest determinant of your experience, at least ime. The facillitator will provide the bulk of the context of the setting, can have some influence on the set. All of the factors you list for question number 3 are more important than the specific plants used.
I would go slightly further and say that the space holders are not only crucial but the whole reason for going to a ceremony in the first place. Why pay (usually a lot of) money unless the shamans / space holders /… add significant value to the experience, when you can just as easily take the medicine at home?
When I go to a ceremony, I go for what the shamans bring to the table (which can be quite incredible).
I don’t want to make blanket statements, but I’m skeptical of the notion that space holders that have not been deeply trained for years would be worth it, even if they are well-intentioned and at least ‘competent’. (Admittedly, I'm speaking from a luxury position, as I’m lucky to have access to traditional ceremonies held by visiting shamans a couple of times a year.)
Sadly, people believe that others hold more authority and tend to relax only when they delegate their power to someone else.
It can bring both ugly and beautiful results. I advocate for self-reliance as indigenous traditions do, but its value is difficult to see given modern education.
The state has become our Father, and we are conditioned to give many freedoms away. That habit is exploited in capitalism for gain (aya scene included).
Finding the right retreat center for you feels like a karmic outcome (predestined). I guess all is well in the Grand Plan
It can bring both ugly and beautiful results. I advocate for self-reliance as indigenous traditions do, but its value is difficult to see given modern education.
The state has become our Father, and we are conditioned to give many freedoms away. That habit is exploited in capitalism for gain (aya scene included).
Finding the right retreat center for you feels like a karmic outcome (predestined). I guess all is well in the Grand Plan
unless you're a connoisseur of these medicines, it will be indistinguishable.
it would be very funny to say that chacruna isn't cosmic. if you want to be humbled, simply drink a higher dose.
first you'll need a sufficient dose. the setting and the view of the facilitator, particularly how much they interfere with your experience and think they are healing you, will be the foundation of your journey. the admixture is a subtlety you can begin to tune into when you deeply apprentice with the plants.
chacruna is so lush, she's considered the more gentle one. chali can be more wild (not wild like a rollercoaster per se, but wild like the untamed jungle)
Ayahuasquero is a person who knows how to make ayahuasca…knows how to dose it and knows a few tripping tricks. There are in reality a lot of ayahuasqueros on the nexus.
Curranderos know how to heal with ayahuasca and other plants and have helper spirits etc. They train extensively for years and undertake an apprenticeship.
I would personally seek out a Currandero if I was to partake in formal ceremonies.
Curranderos know how to heal with ayahuasca and other plants and have helper spirits etc. They train extensively for years and undertake an apprenticeship.
I would personally seek out a Currandero if I was to partake in formal ceremonies.
Let's not forget that main plant in ayahuasca is Caapi.
When I started drinking the brew, I was focused mostly on DMT plants, but did not take too long to realize that caapi is the master plant.
Fortunately, my ayahuasquero share this view and last time he prepared his brew with three different Caapi varieties. One of them has been some rare one called knotted caapi. I do not know much about it, but the difference in strenght and quality of experience was very clear.
When I started drinking the brew, I was focused mostly on DMT plants, but did not take too long to realize that caapi is the master plant.
Fortunately, my ayahuasquero share this view and last time he prepared his brew with three different Caapi varieties. One of them has been some rare one called knotted caapi. I do not know much about it, but the difference in strenght and quality of experience was very clear.
Loving this conversation around facilitatorship, ayahuasqueros, & curanderismo
I appreciate the perspective that the medicine is the teacher, the ayahuasquero is a facilitator of and space holder for the medicine, and that the ayahuasquero/curandero brings a special set of skills (icaros, perfuma, dietas, etc.) to potentiate and "work" the medicine for healing within the ceremonial context. The way I have heard it explained is that curanderismo can include the practice of ayahuasca healing, and that anyone who represents themselves as an ayahuasquero "should" be a healer or at least aligned with healing principles and intent as a facilitator of the medicine. Otherwise, dark things like various forms of exploitation (sexual, financial, spiritual, etc.) have an open doorway into that vulnerable space. The real healer is, of course, the inner healer, and the medicine just helps to remind us of and connect us to that power that resides within us already.
That said, it makes a lot of sense to vet any ceremonial space as much as is practical, and trust your gut if something feels off
I appreciate the perspective that the medicine is the teacher, the ayahuasquero is a facilitator of and space holder for the medicine, and that the ayahuasquero/curandero brings a special set of skills (icaros, perfuma, dietas, etc.) to potentiate and "work" the medicine for healing within the ceremonial context. The way I have heard it explained is that curanderismo can include the practice of ayahuasca healing, and that anyone who represents themselves as an ayahuasquero "should" be a healer or at least aligned with healing principles and intent as a facilitator of the medicine. Otherwise, dark things like various forms of exploitation (sexual, financial, spiritual, etc.) have an open doorway into that vulnerable space. The real healer is, of course, the inner healer, and the medicine just helps to remind us of and connect us to that power that resides within us already.
That said, it makes a lot of sense to vet any ceremonial space as much as is practical, and trust your gut if something feels off
@truth bum
Absolutely, I would say it is vital that we goto ceremonies, if we choose to do so, that are run by people with extensive training, not just a weekend, weeklong or month long training/diet etc etc. Which is all too common these days. I also fully agree that if you don't have that then best off skip the ceremony, self work has less of the complications.
My comment was more that I think non-amazonians can and probably should learn from but also develop their own practices. If someone has drunk aya for 10 or even better 20-30 years regularly, without a curandero deep in the forrest but still in a group setting, I still think they could have something to add for someone new to the medicine and the space but also not necessarily. Just like someone who has dieted in the jungle for a few years may or may not have the necessary tools, confidence, sensitivity etc etc yet. I guess another way to put it is, if you were going to board a plane and go all that way then a curandero is what you seek. If you want an introduction to the medicine and don't have the means to travel all that way then a 'western ayahuascero', to use Jamie's distinction, can provide something of value as well.
I do think indigenous peoples have MUCH we could learn from them but we also need to suit it to western contexts at times and for accessibility a westerner with a lot of experience but no dieta time is still worthwhile versus a gringo with 2 week long diets under their belt who declares themselves a "shaman".
Absolutely, I would say it is vital that we goto ceremonies, if we choose to do so, that are run by people with extensive training, not just a weekend, weeklong or month long training/diet etc etc. Which is all too common these days. I also fully agree that if you don't have that then best off skip the ceremony, self work has less of the complications.
My comment was more that I think non-amazonians can and probably should learn from but also develop their own practices. If someone has drunk aya for 10 or even better 20-30 years regularly, without a curandero deep in the forrest but still in a group setting, I still think they could have something to add for someone new to the medicine and the space but also not necessarily. Just like someone who has dieted in the jungle for a few years may or may not have the necessary tools, confidence, sensitivity etc etc yet. I guess another way to put it is, if you were going to board a plane and go all that way then a curandero is what you seek. If you want an introduction to the medicine and don't have the means to travel all that way then a 'western ayahuascero', to use Jamie's distinction, can provide something of value as well.
I do think indigenous peoples have MUCH we could learn from them but we also need to suit it to western contexts at times and for accessibility a westerner with a lot of experience but no dieta time is still worthwhile versus a gringo with 2 week long diets under their belt who declares themselves a "shaman".
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