Jordan Peterson view about lying and my thoughts

[Physics131]

I love this quote from Jordan Peterson!

One way to increase the probability that things will unfold for you properly is to not lie. Just stop lying. Stop saying things you believe in not being true. Stop doing things you know to be wrong. Just start with that. You will get closer and closer to truth. And the truth is the adventure of life. Thats the advantage of the truth. You have the world on your side. Couse if you are lying about things you are opposing reality. Who are you? Who are you to oppose reality? Good luck.

People can lie to their surroundings or even to themself. But reality is stronger.
You can not change that. Can not change the facts. Not even by reframing.
A donkey will always be a donkey even when it was painted as a zebra.

I think once people understand that, they can start to work on themself.
Thats where we should put the effort into.
It will probably cause fear at first but this enables improvement.
How can you work on a disadvantage when you are not aware of it?
Or how can you work on a disadvantage when you do not even allow yourself to work on it?

Start as small as possbile and it will be easy to implement then continue and get better.
And it motivates when turning the disadvantages to advantages.
And you will feel real strength and success.

But why is this important at all?
People should help each other.
Instead we are faceing useless constraints which just harness others and ourself.
IMO people would help others more when they would work on theirself.
How should someone help someone else when someone can not or does not want to help himself?

Those who are capable of helping others should do it.
But not to expect anything in return!
They should help the way as others helped them.
At least this wonderful portrait has to be created.

 

[The Traveler]

Nice find and I love that quote and your words on it as well!

Myself I try to be that way as much as possible, and I think it might even be one of the main reasons why I have no more anxiety with DMT: my body accepts things as they are, no more mind-bending gymnastics with cognitive dissonance.


It's unfortunate though that several significant cultures view such transparency as a social weakness. In these cultures, individuals often avoid being transparent with themselves and certainly with others.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Sicho Naut]

Fully agree on the importance of honesty.
IMO/IME, honesty is more important for ‘expanding consciousness’ than, say, having a committed meditation practice or doing psychedelics. (Although obviously they are very compatible.)

However, I think we should be careful of framing honesty as a form of ‘self-improvement’ rather than a principle to which the self is sacrificed. The implication in your post that life will improve once you start being more honest is – although I would agree ultimately true – perhaps lacking in nuance and somewhat naïve.

Because real, genuine honesty may have serious consequences. You may get fired, uproot your marriage, traumatize your kids, be shunned by friends and family—all depending on your circumstances. Real honesty IMO/IME is an act of surrender to a higher principle and requires a willingness to accept whatever consequences that principle brings. Thomas More got his head chopped off because he would not be lie for Henry VIII.

Please don’t interpret this post as finger waggling. It is not an issue of right or wrong or being ‘moral’. Dishonesty just ‘is’, but reality does work a certain way and being dishonest will indeed have grave consequences, even if it saves your head.
Don’t consider this post as preaching either— I would almost certainly lie my ass off at gunpoint.

Here’s a quote by Peter Ralston, who has been instrumental in my understanding of honesty:

“[W]e’ve seen that honesty doesn’t support the self; it supports the truth, and such a pursuit can readily diverge from what a self wants. A commitment to honesty can often be inconsistent with a commitment to the needs of an individual self, whose complex matrix of attachments can easily undertake various courses of action and communication that are designed to misrepresent. We can see that “honesty” as a character trait could be an aspect of a self, and to the degree that one genuinely attempts to conform to this quality, the self will be bound by the limits of honesty. In other words, we will have to give up any action or communication that would require dishonesty or misrepresentation, and forgo any results that we might desire if they are inconsistent with being honest.

Yet, as merely a character trait, the depth of honesty will only go as far as the image of honesty—whatever that particular person imagines is meant by “being honest.” Honesty beyond self, or honesty as a principle, is a practice of getting to and representing the truth. All communication and even all thoughts undergo the demand to be absolutely truthful. We are also charged with being open and not assuming that we know what the truth is. This becomes an ongoing practice, since when the truth is unclear or unknown, then the commitment is to discover what the truth is. When the truth is known, or to the degree it is known, then that is what the self must serve—compelling one’s actions, thoughts, communications, and relations. We can see how this commitment would interfere on many occasions with the normal activities and drives of an individual ego-self.”

 

[The Traveler]

However, I think we should be careful of framing honesty as a form of ‘self-improvement’ rather than a principle to which the self is sacrificed. The implication in your post that life will improve once you start being more honest is – although I would agree ultimately true – perhaps lacking in nuance and somewhat naïve.

Because real, genuine honesty may have serious consequences. You may get fired, uproot your marriage, traumatize your kids, be shunned by friends and family—all depending on your circumstances. Real honesty IMO/IME is an act of surrender to a higher principle and requires a willingness to accept whatever consequences that principle brings. Thomas More got his head chopped off because he would not be lie for Henry VIII.

Maybe, just maybe, we should learn to keep our mouths shut in particular situations.

As they say in Dutch: Speakin is silver, silence is gold.

Withholding disruptive data at delicate times is not the same as lying, and even though it might not give full transparency at that moment, it may lay the seeds where the people involved might start thinking about why you shut your mouth at that particular moment and figure it out themselves, giving them thereby crucial time to better think it over without that direct emotional interaction.

As always: its a complex issue with a lot of nuances. However I think that the average person can learn the basics, and recognice the easy pitfulls fairly quickly.

And hey, mistakes are made all the time, we are all just human after all, and often those mistakes end up being the best teachers.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Sicho Naut]

Withholding disruptive data at delicate times is not the same as lying, and even though it might not give full transparency at that moment, it may lay the seeds where the people involved might start thinking about why you shut your mouth at that particular moment and figure it out themselves, giving them thereby crucial time to better think it over without that direct emotional interaction.

I fully agree- I don't think my post suggests otherwise, although I can understand why you interpreted it that way. Honesty indeed does not (per se) entail sharing everything, being insensitive or being untactful.

However, there are plenty of situations where not speaking up is creating a false impression, which IMO is the same as lying even though no words were used, and which will as such have the same consequences as lying. There are also plenty of situations where keeping silent is not possible. E.g. Thomas More: It is not like he took it upon myself to shout the truth about Henry VIII's mariage, but he was put in a position where he either had to lie or die, with no in-between possible.

 

[The Traveler]

However, there are plenty of situations where not speaking up is creating a false impression, which IMO is the same as lying even though no words were used, and which will as such have the same consequences as lying. There are also plenty of situations where keeping silent is not possible. E.g. Thomas More: It is not like he took it upon myself to shout the truth about Henry VIII's mariage, but he was put in a position where he either had to lie or die, with no in-between possible.

Maybe there is also the Spock strategy: "maybe this is not the right time to have this discussion"?

It's honest, no lie and you are very transparent about your rational why the discussion should end at that moment, you also leave open the door to pick it up later when the time is right for it.

Just looking for viable options/tools right here.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Physics131]

Well it was actually "Jim Rohn" and not "John Rohn".
I edited only the name.

@Sicho Naut
I read my thread again after reading your first reply and I understand why this can be interpreted as very naive.
One reason is that i did not provide some intro and context.
Jim Rohn was a mentor, author and coach.
He provided awareness and knowledge about how to live a happier and successful life.

The initial context is about being successful and how laying can hinder you.
It was about how being true to yourself can offer opportunities.
Being reflective about yourself dosnt often involve external interactions.
You fight with yourself in your own mind.

But I agree viewing the topic laying isolated then it is far more complex then just the few sentences I wrote.
But also my thoughts about this topic were formulated in a general manner and I think it also was initially intented exactly like this.
But it is ok as it enabled people providing their views about this topic which I appreciate a lot.
Can we even talk about honesty in a general manner without thinking about examples?

The biggest lie I heard in my entire life was "I am generally honest".
And I view this particular example critical.
Because the teller could create a false external image.
If it is intentional then it is even more then worse.
@The Traveler I absolutely agree that all we can do is do our best possible.

It is a fact that people lie. I am not excluded!
It is a matter of the situation and what is on stake.
The best example is the question "How are you doing?".
Depending on who asks this question, people will give different answers. Like friends, family, children, clients, customers, collegues, boss,..
But does this really matter? Are we allowed to justify about this explicit scenario? Is it correct or right? Do we cause harm?

I agree with being generally honest can cause issues depending on situation.
But I can only explicitly agree with the following concrete example of traumatizeing kids.
And it is good to mention this.
Children are guiltless and must be protrcted at all costs.
But allows that to lie to them in general?
Is it possible to transport the message without having to lie?
Do we have to answer that currently at all?
Or can we even answer it?
Can we suffer in silence?
What are the short, mid or long term impacts of our decision?
I think that this cannot be answered in a general manner and highly depends on the situation.
All we can do is decide and act as best as possible.
Hard decisions are most the most important ones.

I do not think that someone can be a better friend who is lying to his friends and/or family compared to someone very honest.
Do people consider their family members as more valueable when they do not tell them their truth?
The problem IMO is that people do not want the truth.
They are hiding and they do not know its value and the benefits honesty can provide.
IMO at least I want to experience honesty from my near surrounding.
The world and lots of "3rd party people" are already fake.
But this does not mean that we should communicate disrespectful.

I am as honest as possible with my family.
Yes it caused a few conflicts. But expressing my intentions solves it again.
I would feel guilty when laying to my own family.
IMO for regual conversations the problem is not to tell the truth.
The problem is the inability to accept and be open to truth.

Regarding the example with Thomas More.
People died for more useless reasons.
Although it does not justify that someone dies because of telling the truth or someone kills someone else because of that.
Again it is the incompetence of not being able to accept the truth.
And others died for reasons because they created very constructive impact.
But also that does not justify to die as a martyr or to place someone in this situation.

I would almost say that humanity overcame this situation.
But people are muzzled in some countries and fear for their life and can not be honest.
What should they do? Choose honesty over life?
It would have a big impact in a collective manner.
But this can and should not be expected from anyone.

I am one of the rare people who tell others what they have to listen but not what they want to listen.
Without careing about my job for example.
Because all I provide is value and nobody can steal my intention.
But again it depends highly on situation.

I worked at software companies and a single dishonesty can cause millions of harm.
Which means less budget for the team which affects everyone of the team/project/company.
And why?
Because someone wanted to be "professional" instead of being authentic and professional which could have resulted in competence instead.
I think people are often not aware of what they are risking with their mindset.

 

[Physics131]

Well actually it was not even Jim Rohn, it was from Jordan Peterson.
Following a few people and mixed a few things up. It is ok.
The main areas of research were the psychology of religious and ideological beliefs as well as the improvement of personality and performance.

However talking about external honesty, people are dishonest about the most trivial scenarios.
But what for?

I wrote that i would feel guilty when laying to my family.
But I have a very good example that shows and I agree that it always depends on the scenario and intention.
I am currently moving and my sis helped me to move some packges.
My extraction googles where somewhere in the corner and she saw it and made a joke about it but also asked what I was using it for.
Did I tell her the truth?
No.
Why? Because to protect her.
Although IMO more people should do psychedelics, but it is not the right time for her.
Did i feel guilty?
Yes of course.
But I blamed myself and it is ok.

Generally speaking:
People should be at least honest to themself.
People should not cause harm and should be honest as possible.
I also agree that sometimes not speaking is a better way of handling situations, while sometimes it is the opposite.
It always depends on the situation.

And I am not afraid to say that I "just" lied too much in my life.
And I was been lied to too much as well.
And I am tired of it.
But that is just me, a result of bad experiences.
But I am thankful for them, every experience is an experience.

 

[The Traveler]

I hereby retract all my statements from this thread because it appears that the quote originates from Jordan Peterson, a person known for using complex language to present his views, which often results in the dissemination of misleading information.

Given this, it is likely that he has connected the quote with ideas I strongly oppose. He is known for intertwining facts and popular quotes with his radical ideas, which often conflict with the values of those with a strong moral compass.


EDIT: @Physics131 I still love your ideas and words in this thread, its just too bad that Jordan Peterson poisoned the waters for me.

Kind regards,

The Traveler

 

[Voidmatrix]

A lot going on here.

A few thoughts. Sometimes being honest is hurtful and unnecessary. Sometimes telling a lie can save a life. Nothings all good, nothings all bad, I treat truth telling and lying contextually.

Even with ourselves. One should always be honest with oneself, even with regard to the machinations we use to manipulate ourselves (you feel and have reasons to think you can't do something or fail, and tell yourself you got it anyway).

One love

 

[kmk35372]

Truth can be different for each individual. There is a truth and a hard or ultimate truth (истина). To find out what is a hard truth you need to get a truth from 3 sources. Your personal experience, ask a professional in that field you researching and from reading a book that was written in that field. That what some wise people of the past were telling to do to find a hard truth.
Telling your truth every time is definitely harmful in many ways.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Kant says, as a categorical imperative that we should never lie, which I disagree with.

Also, when we say, don't lie, that doesn't mean that otherwise you are telling the truth. It's more the truth as it appears to an individual, particularly in external matters. One can tell a falsehood without it being a lie. If we want truth outside a paradigm or framework, then we have to admit it may not exist outside such and so the ultimate truth is within.

One love

 

[Physics131]

@The Traveler I understand and respect your view.
I should have added the controversial descriton of him in the post as well.
And I should not have made the mistake to spread his quote falsely under the name of someone else.
I also updated the first sentence from my post from "I love Jordan Peterson" to "I love the quote from Jordan Peterson" thinking that this expresses this better.

TBH I am following a lot of individuals some being more controversial then others.
But that does not mean that I subscribe to every ideology of the individual.
We can also learn from unethical persons in a way that to not do it as they did, to learn from others mistakes.

IMO nobody should follow an ideology blindly.
Instead I observe unbiased and think if some view/idea requires adaption, and most of the time it does require it.
The most ethical person could have single views which can be very unconventional and questionable.
Also the most questionable person could have single views which could be ethical.

Although questionable persons should be observed with a higher suspicion.
I am a subscriber of none but an observer of everything.
People should think if there are maybe some hidden gems which lie around.

Do not get me wrong, I sureley do not protect individuals poisining the environment.
IMO it is always about how an information is interpreted/viewed and what and how is crafted with it.

 

[Sicho Naut]

But I can only explicitly agree with the following concrete example of traumatizeing kids.
And it is good to mention this.
Children are guiltless and must be protrcted at all costs.
But allows that to lie to them in general?
Is it possible to transport the message without having to lie?
Do we have to answer that currently at all?
Or can we even answer it?
Can we suffer in silence?


Regarding the example with Thomas More.
People died for more useless reasons.
Although it does not justify that someone dies because of telling the truth or someone kills someone else because of that.
Again it is the incompetence of not being able to accept the truth.
And others died for reasons because they created very constructive impact.
But also that does not justify to die as a martyr or to place someone in this situation.

I regret including the rather ostentatious example of ‘traumatizing kids’, especially since I didn’t have any particular scenario in mind. I was only trying to point out some of the complexities w/r/t honesty.

RE: Thomas More— I would say the issue is not so much the particular reason that he died, but the fact that he was not willing to be dishonest even to save his own life. It’s worth contemplating how such integrity would have influenced his sense of self and life experience while he was still breathing. Most people will never enter a situation where honesty means death, but all people would make a certain choice if they were to the enter such a situation. Though it may never happen, consider that the choice you would hypothetically make in that situation is at this very moment affecting your life experience, i.e. your capacity and willingness to be honest is.

Again, it has nothing to do with ‘right’ and ‘wrong’ IMO. Be dishonest if that is what you want and/or think is best. It has more to do with an awareness of what dis- and honesty do, to your 'psyche' or 'soul' or 'self' or 'life experience' or whatever term suits you. Context and ‘reasonableness’ are certainly something to consider, but it may be a pitfall to take it as some ultimate principle. Fear is an expert rationalizer, and dishonesty will still have the psychological consequences that dishonesty inherently has no matter how many reasonable arguments you have for it. I think many people are blind to what dishonesty does because they have concocted convincing reasons for their deceptions.

And also again: Being honest does not require one to become some unfeeling truth warrior zealously hacking away at people's comforting illusions and blindspots. It simply requires not being dishonest.

The above also addresses various posts of other posters in this thread.

 

[Physics131]

I agree it is not a matter of being right/wrong.
I do not regret that i created this post.
All I wanted was to post my thoughts, read different opinions and learn from it.
I think I probably view this topic too strictly.

With @Voidmatrix reply I learned that not even self-honesty is absolute (which i initially thought).

Someone also in the nexus chat wrote that this can not be viewed in a binary manner.
But I did not really understand the why.
Lots of posts helped me to understand this.

@Sicho Naut I do not really understand why you regret in including the example of "traumatizing kids".
I think I tried to express that this is complex and there is no right/wrong and would depend on a specific scanario.
Also with a specific scenario people would decide differently.

Regarding Thomas More:
I like to integrate root cause analysis with my thinking.
Although I agree that his decisions was unintelligent, but this situations have not to be created.
Only because I mentioned that I would choose honest over job does not mean that I would choose death over honesty because I never was in such a situation and i whish none will be in such a sitatuon.

Regarding "become some unfeeling truth warrior":
Yes I totally agree but I also think that people should be able to give and receive constructive feedback properly.
This has to happen in healthy chunks of course.
Giving ciritcal/constructive feedback is not the same as criticizeing.

After all I think that intentions overrule honesty and makes the later one secondary.
We should work in making the world a better place and I think that this is better achieveable with intentions.

Thank you everyone.

 

[Icyseeker]

I think I am honest to a fault. Most of the time honesty is the best policy. But sometime in social settings a lie may be worth more. Like if a grandmother asked if you liked her cooking or something.

 

[Physics131]

I think I am honest to a fault.

Thats what brings someone forward in terms of mindset, psyche, success and as a being itself.

Most of the time honesty is the best policy.

Yes I totally agree.
Honesty is sometimes hard and painful. not only for others but also for oneself.
But objectively considered it is something what can be viewed as a better good.

But sometime in social settings a lie may be worth more. Like if a grandmother asked if you liked her cooking or something.

Yes, how could someone break the heart of an elder whos only intention was to cause enjoyment.
When someone else passes a specific age, things have to be viewed very differently.

But I must also say that I always tell my younger sister always the truth, even when it is about her cooking.
While I do that, I also explain what my oppinion is based upon and makeing improvement suggestions.
I understand that this can be hurting specially for a female but the next time when things work out better she is even more happy when I am able to praise her.
And it hurs me more then her, I believe at least.
And tbh I am ready to take all the blame when in exchange she would not have to take the blame from others, when I would have not communicated my feedback.
But whats even more important is, that she can alawys count on my oppinion in therms of it being true.

In social settings things start to get very difficult for me.
And most of the time it looks like a loose-loose scenario for me.
Do I tell the truth and hurt someone and myself, or suffer in silence and maybe be the reason why someone would falls into the pit?
Because even intentional non-acting is intentional acting.
The more important someone gets for someone the bigger this inner conflict gets.
One of my biggest issues, why I have issues with socializing.

Thank you for your Input!

 

[rkba]

A skillful liar tells the truth the other wants to hear and we are all more skillful than we would like to admit. Without lying to our true-selves we wouldn't have a society.

 

[🌺🔥🫧]

re:
"One way to increase the probability that things will unfold for you properly is to not lie. Just stop lying. Stop saying things you believe in not being true. Stop doing things you know to be wrong. Just start with that. You will get closer and closer to truth. And the truth is the adventure of life. That's the advantage of the truth. You have the world on your side. Because if you are lying about things you are opposing reality. Who are you? Who are you to oppose reality? Good luck."
-Jordan Peterson

Why are we still at the psycho-developmental stage of forcefully telling unto others 'the truth' all the time?
When can we finally learn to let the untruths, the falsehoods, the lies, the mistakes take us away?
What really is this TRUTH we talk about? talk about
talk about with this synesthesic dance of multidimensional little twinkling 'words' ~
This is where I see you off into your senses
you don't need to keep saying
you can start being
and going
and engage, have fun
curioser, into through,
past language, further than any idea,
shades of feeling-vision you've never been before
realness that touches you
more deeply than you even knew you could be touched

words words words words you boys fixate upon your truths and laws and ideas
galaxy brain
jordan peterson, speaker of THE TRUTH. it's THE TRUTH. don't you get it? if you don't too bad. The truth will make you understand.

my oh my why
i mean this from the bottom of my heart, from humility, from reality as deeply as it has manifested for me:

if it is your place to speak then, I guess, it is my place to

~ listen ~

to you..

 

[ShadedSelf]

Masculine energy I suppose, its probably as frustrating for you as it is for us, somewhere deep down anyways.

Surely theres got to be a balance though, if you ask me.