Knowledgestick's defence response.

[knowledgestick]

You know, I haven't talked to any of the other mods, but I believe that members are allowed to post pics and video here. Knowledgestick, why don't you post your video here, so that those who are visual learners can have access to it.

Doing this will also bring them to the forum where they can read on what DMT really is, what it does, and how it can affect a person, both before and AFTER smoking.

On youtube, there is no place for these explanations, no place for back and forth discussion. It's not the knowledge that we fear spreading, it is the wrong people trying to use that knowledge AND GETTING HURT. They will bring bad attention to our community and to the plants we hold so dear.

On this forum, I cannot remember how many times people have asked if they can use DRAINO in place of NaOH (lye).

On youtube they can't ask... would you smoke xtals made by this person? I wouldn't. And if they end up in the ER, who is that kid gonna blame....he's gonna blame knowledgestick's video. Is mommy going to be angry at her son or daughter, yes, but she's gonna be MORE upset at the video and at DRUGS. I can bet that mainly she's going to be very worried and very angry at the the worst drug of all that hurt her child...DMT.

Can you see where I'm going with this? This is just 1 senerio out of hundreds I can think of, driving on DMT, mishandeling lye and becoming blind, etc....

Just things to think about.

Some great points made, One of the best posts in the thread.

This is the type of ideas im talking about ! constructive plans to make DMT culture safer using tutorials & education but also toning down the approach keeping our culture safe.

I am only a spirit on thease forums who can hardly post in any section at all i do not know if i could post video. If you all have a server for me to upload onto then that would be a great plan of action.

This would also give a way for the members of thease forums who feel "represented as a culture" through thease videos to give them the A-OK.

Making everybody happy is what i want, Not to piss off a large portion of the culture i love. Thank you for this great sugestion, Mods any words on this ?

We could also then perhaps use some type of filtering system to catch the people who are truely interested in DMT through youtube to sign up and begin talking on thease boards to truely educate themselfs about it. You all have to remember alot of people dont know where else to turn but youtube now adays,
( yea it is sad )

This is all positive change in our culture and somthing i would be more than happy to make happen.

 

[DeMenTed]

this video is better than knowledgesticks one уровень политических дебатов в россиянии

 

[knowledgestick]

Now lets look at this for a second, I feel there will always be this divide in the psychedelic culture. Because although i agree with almost all the points you raised i still belive it is the right thing to do to put this type of information out there.

We're all in favor of informing people about DMT and other entheogens as well. That's a major goal that many of us here share. But care must be taken in how we go about this. After all, what's the point of informing people if in the same stroke, we lay the groundwork for destroying everyone's easy access to these substances?

I myself am a visual learner, Also did HORRIBLE in high-school science, I did not understand the DMT tek the first 2-3 times i did it, I was mearly following a cooking recipie. If i had a tutorial to watch and see the reactions taking place it would have amplified my ability to absorb that information propperly to do my own exraction safer and better.

Now, There will always be more people out there that will be looking to get high easily EXACTLY like you said. This is unavoidable for anything, But the true question here is now, Is it fair to hamper the ability for those in our culture who ARE visual learners or who are new to science just because there is that bad side to the drug culture ?

Is it fair for them to waste money or to be scared to smoke their final product because people who have done this before them are to scared to put out tutorials in fear the drug will be taken from them ?

If you didn't understand the tek you were using, why didn't you ask questions? There are many forums around where knowledgeable people are willing to answer questions. I must admit I'm skeptical of your professed support for harm-reduction if you were willing to attempt to extract DMT without even understanding what you were doing. That strikes me as terribly reckless.

You've mentioned that a video could make it so people wouldn't be unsure of the material that they extracted, that they'd be able to consume it with confidence. That's simply NOT true, and it's important to recognize this. At best you will give them a false bravado that only encourages recklessness. For the extracted spice to be safe to use, the right materials have to be used. Take your video for example, where you show Draino being used as the base! Drano is not safe to use, and hasn't been for many years; there's all kinds of other stuff besides NaOH in there that you don't want in your extraction.

You can't ask a video, "Will [such-and-such] solvent work? Is it safe to use?" Especially if your target audience is people who aren't comfortable with chemistry, it's absolutely vital to have an interactive medium (like a forum) where people can pose their idiosyncratic issues and questions, where they can confirm that what they are doing is safe. If harm reduction is your goal, I simply can't understand how you think a youtube video is going to accomplish it to ANY degree.

I would never try and stop that side of my culture from having their own opinion about shairing information to the wider public who maybe interested in psychedelics. If they choose not to that is fine, But when it comes to me making my own choice to represent the side of the culture that would infact like to shair that information i would expect to be able to do so, As both side of our culture should shair the comon theme for freedom as it is what our culture was built on.

Attacking my youtube channel & getting my ability to post content suspended for 6 months while we are trying to release a documentary and advertise it is not letting me be free, The people flagging my videos are not embrassing live and let live, Instead it is a form of control that i do not appreciate.

As i said i would never try and stop those who feel the information should be kept behind closed doors, But i would expect the same level of respect and to be left alone as we do what we feel is right.

You are able to do so. But you don't own youtube. As long as you're spreading your message on someone else's medium, it's subject to their control. One of their controls is the ability to flag videos. If we see videos that are not responsibly informative, that put our entire community at risk of losing the ready access we have to the materials we hold dear, then of course we're going to flag it. You don't see us flagging trailer's for Strassman's movie, or videos where McKenna talks about DMT, or interviews with Jonathan Ott on the subject. Because they present the message and information responsibly, in a way that doesn't threaten our entire community.

Why should we "live and let live" when someone is threatening a central aspect of our way of life? We believe that people should have access to DMT, and although it's not your intention, your videos put that in extreme jeopardy. So of course we flag them. We have a vested interest, and we're protecting it. We aren't keeping information behind closed doors... if you explore this site some more, I think you can clearly see that we're all for disseminating information. We just recognize the need for care in how we go about disseminating it, to protect everyone's ability to utilize the information.

The "I've got mine so fuck you Jack" approach doesn't hold much water with most of us.

I want to get over this in a way both sides of this culture are satisfied. We are going to keep doing what we do regardless, But if you DMT nexus tell us what to keep out of our tutorials or other videos, Things that would upset you most then we will honestly try to abide by that.

I'd say keep extraction videos off of youtube, if you honestly value harm-reduction. Youtube extraction vids are only going to lead to more people doing more dangerous things and harming themselves, bolstered by a false bravado they derive from having seen a video and thinking "Damn that's simple, nothing can go wrong!"

The things that upset us are irresponsibility and recklessness. Good informative videos about DMT are fine when approached from a stance of integrity and responsibility. Showing people smoking DMT does not seem to be in any way productive, all it serves to do is fuel the evening news with video-clips of the "dangerous new drug that's killing your kids" like it did with salvia.

We're not opposed to all youtube videos on DMT. Only the reckless and irresponsible ones, the ones that place our entire community in jeopardy. Those are the ones that will continue to be flagged relentlessly.

Most of what you said pertains to our old DMT extraction video and i agree 100% with those statements. We where dumb kids and made a tutorial out of the very first extraction we ever did, I am sure if i showed you our new video we made 2 weeks ago you would have a much differant opinion on your thoughts towards how i view harm reduction but based off the evidence you have available to you i can see how you think that.

I also did ask about how to make DMT and try to get the questions answered that i wasnt sure on but i got snubbed by almost everybody i turned to for information.

Please, Lets keep this thread on track in the direction we where headed a couple posts up with constructive ways to change the culture & make everybody in this debate happy.

 

[Entropymancer]

No, what I'm saying pertains to ANY extraction tutorial video. There simply is not the same capacity for harm reduction in the visual medium.

If you want to make videos about how to safely handle strong acids and bases, about using proper safety equipment, about liquid-liquid extraction, or about recrystallization techniques, all of those are well and good. I can appreciate that visual learners could benefit from seeing how to use a separatory funnel and things like that.

But once you make a complete video tek, people are going to see that and think "Oh that's simple, I can do that." And then maybe they use draino, maybe they use coleman fuel, maybe they decide to heat their naphtha on the stove... and hurt themselves. I think a video tek inherently increases the danger in the process by bolstering recklessness.



Also, it appears that you've sidestepped my other important point (which others have mentioned as well): The point about preserving everyone's ability to have access to DMT.

 

[Infundibulum]

As we are still on the debate, would you like to remove your other videos from blip.tv? In addition, I believe that Acolon's and Entropy's posts were not fully addressed.

My main concern about these videos is purely the audience they are targeted to. In Youtube and blip you get anything from the dumb to dumbest and smart to smartest. Some people will see the videos as a way for cooking drugs. Scheduled, illegal and dangerous drugs in fact. And such people will definitely stir trouble.

Now, back to the issue, and as acolon asked, why didn't you post your videos here on the Nexus to help those who are more on the visual side but still they cannot cope with pictures (you know many teks include pictures and id' imagine this would suffice without the need to have "moving images") ?

 

[acolon_5]

Knowledgestick, please understand that we don't always stay 100% on track, and that is ok as long as the entire thread has not been derailed.

This allows for a bit more information being exchanged without compromising the thread.

I did not see your video, did you really use Draino as your base? If yes, that vid should have been pulled ASAP and you should be thanking those that flagged it for you. Your tek (if you did use draino) is dangerous and may have harmed people. Draino is not lye, not even close, and has quite a few toxic chemicals in it (please don't make me look it up, just take my word for it) and is in no way suitable for an extraction, especially one where it is going to be ingested.

Again, this is why learning an extraction, even a simple one, should be learned in a classroom, or short of that, a mature forum where there are people who ARE chemists and chemical experts to guide the rest of us. Simply watching a video is not enough.

 

[SnozzleBerry]

My first request is that you post your "new" videos here on the nexus now, so that we may see what's so different and mature about them. If you really have these new, mature extraction vids that don't use impure materials or fail to demonstrate an adherence to safety protocols, I'd be very interested to see them. Honestly, I think you're missing the point. These videos are not the issue, its the forums in which they're being displayed. Youtube is not the appropriate place for such vids as it invites all sorts of unwanted attention. Those who want DMT will seek it out, thus the videos should be in places where they will be sought out, not in the public spotlight for all to see. That makes little sense to my mind. I wanted to preface with this so you don't repsond to my following long post with the typical "you don't understand, that's only relevant to my old videos" line. This is relevant to all your videos and until you show us your new ones, the only ones we know are your "old" ones. And, just to reiterate, even if your new ones are better, they still don't belong on youtube. Longer post to come...

love
SB

 

[SnozzleBerry]

OK, so I've refrained from wading into this fracas, but at this point, I feel like I can no longer sit idly on the sidelines, and as I was the one who initially brought your horrendous (referring to the quality of the materials used as well as the overall lab procedure and tone set by you guys running around in costumes) extraction video into the eye of the nexus there are some things I'd like to say. First, as Amor_Fati already stated, it is my right to choose who I see as emissaries from the entheogenic community and YOU, sirs, are no emissaries. I have no desire to engage in name calling, so please understand that everything I say is how I perceive the individuals who appeared in that video as well as my perceptions of you guys from the numerous posts you have now made. You are hot-headed, short-sighted (read your own comments as to how many things you didn't consider, or how many points you agree with us on) individuals who are self-labelled non-experts with no formal chemistry training and an inability to learn from written teks (by your own admission). Given all of this, I feel very strongly that you SHOULD NOT be the voice of this community on youtube or through any other forum (being used in the general sense and not referring internet communities). Leary was, at least, a Harvard professor and clearly brilliant man, yet many people still saw a lot of problems with what he was doing. You sirs, are no Learys and have no right to claim to be acting in the same vein especially given the manner in which you attempted to "spread this knowledge".

Now, to digress for a moment, you say that you are in 100% "agreence" with us about "irrisponsible" use of salvia, yet you have posted these videos through your youtube account. First allow me to say, one of the reasons I do not want you representing the community AT ALL is that from both your posts and youtube videos, you come across as incredibly inarticulate (Hell, this thread is titled "Knowledgestick's defence response" ). I would NEVER permit my interests to be presented by an individual I consider to be less articulate than myself, although, unfortunately it happens far too frequently. That being said, here was an opportunity for me to prevent that, and I did. Now, moving beyond your poor qualifications to be a spokesman for the entheogenic community, we come to these videos from Knowledgestick's Youtube Channel:

These videos do not present someone smoking salvia while driving a car or on the top of someone's roof or while doing the Tosh Extreme Challenge, but this is not educational, imo. To have these guys in a room talking about the effects of salvia and the epiphanies and experiences it has created for them or about the mechanisms through which Salvinorin A affects an individual's perception would be extrememly beneficial videos. These however, do not present that sort of information. Again, these are videos that, while not wildly reckless, fall into the category of the type of youtube vids that got salvia criminalized in the first place.

Honestly, if you are a visual learner as you claim to be, what's wrong with extraction pictorials? Please explain to me what a video provides that a good pictorial does not? The nice thing about pictorials is that they do not need to be hosted on sites like youtube. To my mind, there is no rationale as to having extraction videos. If you are "so bad" at chemistry that you can't learn from reading teks over and over again (or posting help questions in a forum/chatting with forum members in a webchat) then I would say pictorial teks (not videos) are perfect for you. If after that you are still so unclear that forum posts/chats cannot clarify this process for you, you SHOULD NOT be extracting. Many extractions include the use of strong bases and petrochemicals. If you can't conceptualize how to perform this procedure (even when given pictures) how can you be expected to safely work with these hazardous materials? One other point I'd like to use this section to segue into is the fact that in your video you used impure materials (some sort of drain cleaner that was not 100% lye) and failed to observe anything even remotely resembling lab safety. I get that you claim that this is an "old" video, but I'm sorry, for a number of reasons, not the least of which being your tone/voice I feel that there has not been much time lapse between that video and now. If you were truly into harm reduction, why did you use poor chemicals and no lab safety? Are you seeing the contradictions inherent in your argument given the extraction video?

I believe I approached you in a calm, non-insulting way when I first posted on your youtube channel. Granted, I gave you an ultimatum; take down the vid or have it flagged to death, but I was nonetheless polite and avoided name calling. I then attempted to make clear the points as to why we flag videos on your youtube channel. That eventually did degrade to some name-calling on both sides of that debate. After the video was removed by you, I went so far as to thank you for removing it, as I figured you had finally understood the points I was trying to make. Here are two additional points to everything else I've said. With youtube videos there is no trouble-shooting. Again, you claim to make these videos so people have knowledge on how to do this safely. Ignoring the points I've already made with respect to that claim, watching a video does not equate to a good product. There are so many variables that can shift from one extraction to the next that there is no way you could claim someone watching your video is guaranteed to have pure, uncontaminated dmt. With such a video tutorial, there is no one to ask for help if your extraction winds up looking very different from the video. Additionally, with viral youtube videos, just as with salvia, MHRB goes from being esoteric to being in the public view. This is something that should be avoided at all costs. The public is not demanding DMT, we are a small percent of the population. Those who want it will seek it out, it's not hard to find that you extract it from MHRB, why would you reveal that fact to every layperson? Not only is it non-sensical, it's unnecessary as many of them simply don't care or have no desire for that knowledge. The Feds have tolerated forums and the like, they know we're here and have turned a blind eye. Why would you prod a sleeping giant? Yes, prohibition must end, but this is not the way to around affecting that change. Have you heard of CEL? Here, take a look: Coalition for Entheogenic Liberty - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus.

Finally, you need to understand, this is not about ego. This is not about me being supreme master and controller of the spice. Yes, Dune does say that he who controls the spice controls the universe, but universal control/world domination have never really been my cup of tea. I have taught people to extract in real life, I have taught people to extract via the internet. I am not a chem major, I am not a gate keeper, I am an individual who uses entheogens in a ritualistic context for exploring the nature of nature and consciousness. When I see a lack of respect toward something I have devoted nearly 20% of my life to, I take offense to that. I am not trying to stifle knowledge by any stretch. I am merely trying to prevent certain avoidable and potentially cataclysmic events from taking place due to careless people posting extraction videos. If you want to present information on DMT a la Rick Strassman and the various spirit molecule vids that are up, by all means, please do. I love those vids and watch all of them whenever I encounter new ones. There is much more I have to say, but I will wait for a response so that I am not seen as entirely dictating your repsonse and we do not retread old ground. I am glad to see your attitude change from your opening post. Honestly, after reading that, I really did not think I was going to reply at all. I am impressed with your willingness to engage in open conversation and not just flame people for taking offense with your video. Please keep up the discourse and explore what we offer here at the Nexus.

peace
SB

 

[ragabr]

A quick word of love to every member of the Nexus, and especially to Art and UniverseCannon.

To knowledgestick, it appears that you feel free to consistently speak out of ignorance. We have at least three threads on the Nexus linking to different videos produced by prestigious universities that demonstrate every single technique necessary to extract DMT with proper safety precautions. They even present the background so that one can *understand* the process they work through.

It seems that no message gets across to you about thoughtfully selecting a venue and proper presentation of information.

The dichotomy you refer to, without actually describing it, sounds quite childish and limited in scope to me. It neglects that many of us do not feel that everyone deserves or should have access to psychedelics. We often talk about a licensing requirement, and lament the fact that a black market creates an unregulated atmosphere where emotional children can open themselves and others to the damage of irresponsible use.

 

[۩]

Thanks snozz, I flagged all of those terribly disgusting videos.

 

[cellux]

knowledgestick:

There are 2 polaritys in the psychedelic culture one that feels this information should be shared, One who does not think the same.

Please, this is not so simple. Both sides want to share this information, I'm quite sure about that. But when sharing information, one must understand the possible consequences. If you put up such material on a popular site like YouTube, the consequences can be enormous. And what makes it even worse: you won't know about the negative consequences, because there is no feedback. You may live happily everafter, oblivious of the damage you may have done.

For these (and other) reasons, I definitely think you should publish your stuff on a less central place (like the Nexus or a private site), and leave it to Strassman & Co. to inform the general public about the existence of DMT. Those who seek shall find ( and they'll probably bless your name for your instructional videos if they are really that good )

 

[۩]

I share every day in a respectful and constructive manner. I don't find knowledgesticks way of sharing that helpful at all.
Looks like some guy just trying to get fucked up.
Has the spice taught you nothing? really?

 

[acolon_5]

http://www.youtube.com/w...3J_o&feature=related

Well damn. These are exactly the type of video that got salvia banned. I took a look at all 22 of your vids and I must say I'm not impressed.

These videos do not show a person(people) that are serious about ethnogens, but rather are looking to get high...that's the way the videos are presented (smoke a spliff to enjoy this video???)

 

[Trickster]

I share every day in a respectful and constructive manner. I don't find knowledgesticks way of sharing that helpful at all.
Looks like some guy just trying to get fucked up.
Has the spice taught you nothing? really?

Once I was very enthusiastic about introducing my friends to spice. I actually pushed them into trying it without explaining that the experience could be very painful. And then I had 2 nightmarish journeys where the central theme was - DO NOT DO THAT! Let them make that decision for themselves. Only then you can help them to do it right. Luckily I learned the lesson spice taught me.

I think that passing this knowledge to everybody and his dog without taking personal responsibility (like publishing in on Youtube) is a crime. It's like giving a loaded gun to a toddler.

 

[Bill Cipher]

I think that passing this knowledge to everybody and his dog without taking personal responsibility (like publishing in on Youtube) is a crime. It's like giving a loaded gun to a toddler.

Hell yes.

You admit to having outdated and dangerous extraction teks up right now on your channel, because... why? Your new one isn't ready yet?? I've watched a bunch of your videos (both old and new) in an effort to try and be fair to you - and, guess what? They are all completely abhorrent to me. You are no kind of suitable representative for anything (except unemployment and shitty techno music). Timothy Leary, as previously mentioned, was a respected Harvard professor, and regardless of whether you think he ultimately helped or hurt the cause he championed, he was a very articulate spokesman. You, on the other hand, can't even spell. You can't write or organize your thoughts. You're not clear at all on the arguments you're making, and you're blind to the painfully obvious dangers to others in what you're doing. Your videos suck, put people at risk and cast all of us in a negative light. Most importantly, they can and will lead to people (and likely only the youngest and dumbest) inevitably getting hurt. You flood these lowest common denominator websites (that are populated hugely by kids) with your shitty little videos, instruct(???) them how to extract with Drano, and show you and your friends getting high.

I think you are a blight on "the community" - to the extent you are even a part of one. You're an anal cancer, a genital wart, a disgrace to the world you "represent". I hate that you are even here engaging in this debate, and I fucking hate with all the hate I have in me that you and I share ANY part of a culture. You ask which one of your videos are suitable for posting anywhere? The answer, as far as I am concerned, is NONE OF THEM - NOT A SINGLE ONE. Your entire approach is extremely dangerous. You may not know when some 16 year old who has watched one ends up burning his house down and dies. You will likely hear about it when someone gets blinded, or poisoned, or goes to jail. We'll all of us have to pay the price when it ends up on the news.

Turn on the lights. Wake the fuck up and get your head out of your ass. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOTHING BUT BAD FOR THAT WHICH YOU CLAIM TO LOVE.

 

[۩]

I think that passing this knowledge to everybody and his dog without taking personal responsibility (like publishing in on Youtube) is a crime. It's like giving a loaded gun to a toddler.

Hell yes.

You admit to having outdated and dangerous extraction teks up right now on your channel, because... why? Your new one isn't ready yet?? I've watched a bunch of your videos (both old and new) in an effort to try and be fair to you - and, guess what? They are all completely abhorrent to me. You are no kind of suitable representative for anything but unemployment and shitty techno music. As mentioned by Snozzleberry, Timothy Leary was a Harvard professor and a very articulate spokesman. You, on the other hand, can't even spell. You can't write. You're not clear at all on the arguments you're making, and you're blind to the obvious dangers in what you're doing. Your videos suck, put people at risk and cast all of us in a negative light. Most importantly, they can and will lead to people someone hurt. You flood these lowest common denominator websites (that are populated hugely by kids) with your shitty little videos, instruct(???) them how to extract with Draino and show all your friends getting high.

I think you are a blight on "the community" - to the extent that you are even a part of one. You're an anal cancer, a genital wart, a disgrace to psychedelics. I hate that you are even here engaging in this debate, and I fucking hate with all the hate I have in me that you and I share ANY part of a culture. You ask which one of your videos are suitable for posting? The answer is NONE OF THEM - NOT A SINGLE ONE. Your entire approach is extremely dangerous. You may not know when some 16 year old who has watched one of your videos burns down his house and dies. You will likely hear about it when someone gets blinded, or poisoned, or goes to jail. We'll all of us have to pay the price when it ends up on the news. Turn on the lights. Wake the fuck up and get your head out of your ass. WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS NOTHING BUT BAD FOR THAT WHICH YOU CLAIM TO LOVE.

Thank you Art, beautifully articulated.

And mr. stick, you were the moron extracting with draino?

Wow...I don't even know what to say. That is just repulsive, dangerous, and well, art said it way better than I ever could.

 

[acolon_5]

Art, man that's harsh.

However, if you believe as strongly as you do about it, please flag all his videos that appear dangerous. I know I have.

And you know what.....flagging works. I've seen tons of videos that have been removed because of flags.

Seriously, if you are going to do an instructional video on extracting DMT (and I don't agree with it on youtube ever) at LEAST make sure you are spreading the right information.

Spreading bad information is 10000x worse than not saying anything at all. I still can't believe it DRAINO???

I'm surprised you have not harmed yourself with your extractions.

 

[Seven]

Yeah Art was harsh, but this is serious shit here. People are going to hurt themselves, and thats not cool at all. This is stirring up serious emotions in everyone for obvious reasons. Acolon, I cant believe the draino thing either, spreading false information is repulsive.

 

[BananaForeskin]

That would be the upside of posting videos through the Nexus, though, as Acolon suggested a while back. If all of this was being filtered through the Great Nexians In the Sky before it got put up for all the world to see, then the Draino thing wouldn't happen. It shouldn't be DMT-Nexus vs. The Rest of the DMT-users, the Nexus should really be the all-encompassing DMT community. Anybody who wants to learn to extract DMT (and do it RIGHT) will end up here sooner rather than later, it's not like putting it on youtube is going to spread it to the masses FASTER. It'll only spread it to the people who aren't looking for it, which ends in BAD SHIT. Really, if you want to contribute to the wide world of spice wisdom, this is the place to do it.

Given how many vendors have stopped stocking MHRB lately, after BBB there can't be another scandal involving DMT. ESPECIALLY not the kind that involves hospitalization. They shouldn't happen in the first place, but right now is one of the worst times for something like that to happen.

 

[ghostman]

I am going with Art on this one. We don't all have to sugarcoat our disapproval of abhorrent youtube trippinballz drivel. I'm going to let Art call a spade a spade. I still don't think that we will be able to stop the tidal wave of idiots who will fuck it up for everyone else.

As someone once told me, we are surrounded by twits.