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Legality of Caapi in the UK?

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Esteemed member
Sorry to ask this and also if I am breaking any rules.
I will try to word this with thought.

I have found my self in a disturbing legal position and require some advise.
The problem is not many people know of these plants and there legality .

What are the laws in the UK concerning Caapi B vine, is it illegal to import to the UK?

I have been charged with ,"Importing a class A drug" 2 kilos of plant containing DMT.
(This is a serious crime)

I am not guilty of that because Caapi vine contains zero DMT. My Capuri vine will get tested and shown to contain no DMT.
However I am still concerned that the vine may be illegal as it may be classed as a psychoactive substance.

I can tell you its legality in the USA/France/Australia but no my own country England.

Thank you.
Your charge is bunk, Caapi is not a class A drug. Check "the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971" (as amended from time to time). The Police thought they were being clever but they have their facts muddled up. I'm assuming that ACRB, MHRB, chacruna, or chagropanga/chaliponga was, to your knowledge, not involved - and also hoping that it is not involved through no fault of your own, as that would unnecessarily complicate matters. Be strong, don't take any bull**** from them - but stay humble and know that your truth is on your side.

If, especially, you get good legal representation, it's likely your case won't even get to court. Be aware of the possibility that they might subsequently try charging you under the Psychoactive Substances act of 2016, in which case it would get a bit more interesting. There is an exception for traditional herbal medicines - and Caapi is clearly a traditional herbal medicine. The scientific papers in the Ayahuasca science thread here will help you to demonstrate that beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I can see their reasoning - "Caapi = Ayahuasca, Ayahuasca = DMT" - but they have messed up; tread carefully and there's a good chance you should be in the clear.

EDIT: I've searched the current Misuse of Drugs Act, Schedule 2 ("List of Controlled Drugs") and harmaline, harmine, and Banisteriopsis caapi are not list anywhere. If you have to speak to the Police in a formal interview, make a statement to this effect under legal guidance and inform them that, on the basis of legal advice, you will be answering, "No Comment," to all further questions. (It would help if you have already done this in any interviews up to this point.)

If your lawyer does not agree with this course of action, consider very carefully whether it would be in your best interests to keep them under your instruction (i.e. unless they have a VERY good reason for acting otherwise, sack them) - thus it would pay to establish this from the outset. It's just a real shame that legal aid ain't what it used to be.

Mostly US perspective but the same sentiments apply:
Why you should not speak to the Police

Thank you Downwards.
It is complicated because that mistake made by customs lead to a search warrant.
Now they have my Changa collection which will get tested with everything else.

In the interview they only bought in large bags of vine 1k Black 500g Yellow 1k Mullein . Asking me what are these , I explained they are labelled and not illegal.

I assume the charges will get changed to possession of a class A drug once my changa is tested.

My current thinking is that if they wanted to prosecute me for having DMT they need a specific amount of substance, which means they would have to extract the DMT from the Changa.

I have sought a good lawyer which I will be seeing in a few days.

Never would have even dreamt that some thing like this would or could happen to me :)
I can tell you its legality in the USA/France/Australia but no my own country England

That's because the new UK general ban is defined in a very ambiguous way, with basically no solid scientific definition. Other countries have made much more scientific precise definitions for their bans. The most extreme one is certainly the german NPSG, which is very detailed regarding scientific definition.

But IMHO it surely "could" be classed as a "psychoactive substance" and not just as herbal medicine. But that the judge would have to decide...

But as you got a search, your caapi has certainly become now your least concern anymore.

Wish you the best.

> which means they would have to extract the DMT from the Changa.

They will surely do a proper lab analysis of all your different changa samples. That's common practice.
DeltaSpice said:
My current thinking is that if they wanted to prosecute me for having DMT they need a specific amount of substance, which means they would have to extract the DMT from the Changa.
Not exactly. Usual practice in "Law Enforcement and Justice" is to establish the presence of the controlled substance, then use the mass of the material in which it was found as the mass of controlled substance. While apparently somewhat disingenuous, this has probably evolved from analysing 'cut' powders, whereby a gram of substance 'X' is still a gram even if it's cut down to 10% with inert filler.

They would still need to analyse the material, which would of course entail extracting it. While this may well give a quantitative measurement for any "controlled drug" found to be present that information would, as stated above, tend to be disregarded in court.

Since the privatisation and outsourcing of forensic laboratories in the UK, things have been pretty shambolic at times. That's one thing to cross your fingers about (but not to pin your hopes on). Quite often the Police are lazy and incompetent as well - this should at least give you a small advantage should your case end up going to court.

Considering the very widespread occurrence of DMT, it's possible that any incense material found could have included a plant with an unknown latent level of this ubiquitous alkaloid entirely by accident... (This is not intended to constitute legal advice - it's merely food for thought!!)

tregar said:
I thought only coffee and alcohol were legal now in UK.
To be precise:
Controlled drugs

1 Controlled drugs (within the meaning of the Misuse of Drugs Act 1971).
Medicinal products

2 Medicinal products.

In this paragraph “medicinal product” has the same meaning as in the Human Medicines Regulations 2012 (S.I. 2012/1916) (see regulation 2 of those Regulations).

3 Alcohol or alcoholic products.

In this paragraph—

“alcohol” means ethyl alcohol, and

“alcoholic product” means any product which—

contains alcohol, and

does not contain any psychoactive substance.

Nicotine and tobacco products

4 Nicotine.

5 Tobacco products.

In this paragraph “tobacco product” means—

(a)anything which is a tobacco product within the meaning of the Tobacco Products Duty Act 1979 (see section 1 of that Act), and

(b)any other product which—

(i)contains nicotine, and

(ii)does not contain any psychoactive substance.

6 Caffeine or caffeine products.

In this paragraph “caffeine product” means any product which—

(a)contains caffeine, and

(b)does not contain any psychoactive substance.

7 Any substance which—

(a)is ordinarily consumed as food, and

(b)does not contain a prohibited ingredient.

In this paragraph—

“food” includes drink;

“prohibited ingredient”, in relation to a substance, means any psychoactive substance—

which is not naturally occurring in the substance, and

the use of which in or on food is not authorised by an EU instrument.
This is a horribly shoddy piece of sh*t legislation which should be consigned to the waste bin of history as quickly as possible. For one thing, it's not even clear whether cocoa is legal or not. Anyhow, I digress.
Tea, coffee, alcohol, tobacco and nicotine, chocolate, and established foodstuffs with incidental psychoactive effects are now the only things officially sanctioned by the oh-so-wonderful British Government, although apparently a case attempting to prosecute a supplier of nitrous oxide was laughed out of court fairly recently.

soul-explorer said:
Wasn't the search illegal if the basis for it turns out to be incorrect? (import of an DMT containing plant)
That doesn't matter. They were 'acting in good faith'. And their search found material related to the 'reasonable grounds' for searching.

This post is long enough now, methinks...
downwardsfromzero said:
“alcoholic product” means any product which—

contains alcohol, and

does not contain any psychoactive substance.
There is no such product, because anything that contains alcohol contains a psychoactive substance (alcohol itself is psychoactive).
yeah, Jagube. The double standards are beyond nauseating. Or is it enacted with a view to prosecuting people who sell or use alcoholic beverages with the intent of become intoxicated? Laws about public drunkenness already exist, though :?

This law is so ill-thought-out and poorly enacted, it has already attracted a wealth of derision and criticism. Police officers also complain that it is to a large extent unworkable. And the civil liberties side of "everything being banned unless we say it isn't" beggars belief!
It has been nearly 2 months since this incident and since I've smoked.

I used to smoke between 1 & 4 Caapi Alkaloid / Mullein joints per day and Changa a few times per week.
I have some back issues, spinal fusion some years ago.

My back now is a complete mess, pain , numb spots, movement restrictions.
I have had to take some Tramadol which in my opinion is just filth and does not help other than it dopes me up.

I have always said that these plants are medicine and they heal you mentally and physically.
Rant over :)
Did anything materialise on the legal side?

It really sucks that they've deprived you of legitimate pain-relief; it feels to me as though now is the time to be fighting back against the suffering and inconvenience caused to you. This would entail finding a very good and friendly lawyer. Some kind of medical evidence would also be highly desirable.

There's a wealth of information about the medical benefits of harmala alkaloids collated here, as you are likely aware. My thought is that this resource would have its value proven should you choose to pursue justice in this matter.

Have you ever tried willow bark, cramp bark and prickly ash bark for your back pain? Tramadol sucks.
Hopefully the laws will change one day. From what I understand, the psychoactive substances law was all conceived by Theresa May. Yes, one person caused all that havock! Imposing the will of one person on 66 million people, now that's the destructive ego at work.

US television show Saturday Night Live on Dec 16, 2018 poked fun at Theresa May in a skit mocking her Brexit troubles. It was towards the end of the show, the one with Miley Cyrus as muscial guest (her Christmas performance was incredible, woooah, she can really sing).

Back pain will affect over 80% of people in their life time. It appears to be a major weak spot in Human Anatomy. I have degenerative back disease myself, still manage to lift weights (have for many years, love going to gym, was a lifeguard for a long time, so have to stay in shape) have a ruptured disc, pain comes and goes everyday. The plato like material ruptures out of a crack in the disc and presses on nearby sciatic nerve, causing pain...the disc material can dry up and shrink about 1mm every month, took 10 months before pain went away, came back again months ago when I had a tennis twisting like move, tends to cause a rupture when water is gone from discs moreso than any kind of heavy lifting, the twisting moves you got to be careful. Pain should go away after many more months again. It's a myth that you need surgery when you have a ruptured disc, 90% of people heal over time, it just takes a long time for the material which came out of the disc to shrink or dry up away from the nerves which cause pain to shoot down leg, etc. As the nerves control functions down the leg, etc. depending on where it is, example: my rupture was at L5 ad S1 near the butt.
Hi guys,
Legally nothing has happened. I am just waiting for testing on all they took from me.
Quite a few changa blends and a bag of powdered MHRB.
This is where im in trouble , nearly a kilo of plants matter containing DMT . Which I believe is the same as having a kilo of coke and that is big prison time.

My defence will be medical reasons and I have no previous so I hope for a suspended sentence .
Either way I just have to wait, I have a decent lawyer, he says keep your head down keep working and wait to see what they say.

My back pain has made its way to my shoulder which is disturbing .
I am on and off Tramadol which could ruin my life completely, as in addiction and the effects it has on my personality which affects my personal relationships. Yet the doctor gave me 100 tablets , no questions. She should be in up court for that imo.

Cheers .. Ill keep you posted :)

(willow bark, cramp bark and prickly ash bark for your back pain// I will look into those thanks)
Hi Guys/Girls,
I wanted to give you an update and kind of bring closure to this situation and help any members with this info.
The CPS came at me with four charges, Importation/Possession/Production/Distribution.
Also Legal Aid were sending bailiffs to recover the sum of 22k costs.

I became an instant expert in the area of plants because no one had a clue including the arresting officers, the judges, the prosecution/defence experts. They made written statements stating that "Changa was eaten by indigenous people of the Amazon" "DMT was to be snorted" etc.
Everyone involved was very interested though because this was a case out of the norm.

The charge of "Importation" was dropped because Caapi Vine is legal in all forms in the UK.

The charge of "Distribution" was dropped because it was a ridiculous charge.

The charge of "Production" was a serious charge starting at 2 years imprisonment. They took the production charge from the fact that i had ready made changa (labeled)..
They had taken reference from an old case "Aziz" where a guy had made Ayahuasca. However whereas he mixed and cooked 2 plants to make a class A drug. I had simply dropped a class A drug (DMT) onto some plants which is not production of a class A drug.

The charge of "Possession" was controversial because: They found/or i gave them 665 grams of Powdered MHRB. The law says that powdered "may" be considered as preparation. Whole plants are not illegal in the UK.
My expert gave a statement that said "powdered is not preparation"

In the end we made a deal that i copped for possession and they dropped everything else.
MHRB has between 0.1% to 1% DMT it is estimated. There is no way to determine the exact figure.
665g = something like from 1g to 7g roughly, either way the punishment is the same.
First time offence and probably the most decent person in the courtroom i received a £750 fine and a criminal record. No telling off from the judge , he said that this has been a warning to me..
Legal Aid i dropped and paid cash 5k to the solicitors ..
So i am in debt and a criminal now.

I am sure that i could have won this case and even taken it to the house of Lords but that path was not chosen.

Advise: Do not label your items //// Do not keep powdered plants..

This experience taught me that when something bad happens in life i owe it to myself to find a positive in their.
From constant worrying for at least 6 months i taught myself to think positively because our minds always end up on a negative path.
This positive thought process and being aware of my thought processes has lead me to a happier life and more in control of the uncontrollable through positive energy ..
Thank you
Hey DeltaSpice I can honestly say I'm deeply sorry but mostly p#ssed off about what's been done to you by the UK government and it's BS laws, pardon my language.

I just wanted to ask about your advice, especially considering your recent experience on how events like this can potentially be avoided-prevented and how it was that you in particular got found out in the first place that lead to this search and seizure.

Much love DS and as much as I'd like to further use this opportunity to badmouth this crappy government I'm sure it's already been done enough by members of this thread so I'll leave it there :x .
Thanks king T.
One way i could have avoided this situation.
Never order over 1kg (excuse me if ordering subjects are not allowed)

UK customs only look into parcels that are over 1kg in weight or this is what i have been told at least.

I made the mistake of ordering 2kg Caapi vine which lead to customs investigating and concluding that Caapi vine contains DMT (halfwits)

Even though it was totally legal , they burnt it with all my other possessions.

It has been over a year now since my arrest and today i received a letter saying i can come and collect my mobile phone which was 2 months old and top of the line. Now its worth a quarter of what i paid for it..

luckily i can laugh because i know i am lucky to be alive, live & love :)

Never talk to the police without your council present . Even if you have done nothing wrong. Their job is to lock you away for as long as possible and do not care whether or not you are guilty or a decent person. The longer your sentence the better for their career prospects...

Cheers everyone..
Glad to hear this is now behind you, Delta. And good on you for remaining strong. Sounds like you gained some positive perspectives out of quite a problematic situation.
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