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Lemon Balm contains Harmine, could it activate DMT orally?

Migrated topic.
Well as mentioned in my previous post, that publication's method is not enough to say it 'for sure' contains harmine, and even if it has harmine, for the only one particular plant they said it contained harmine and quantified, it was only found in parts per million, or in other words, traces.

Anyways this is not to rain on your parade, I love the fact that you are suggesting a new possible ally plant and thank you for bringing this up, whether it turns out to work or not, but I'm just trying to bring the facts we have to the table, until our personal experiments show one way or another.

One possibility (appart from 'it contains', 'it doesnt contain', and 'it only contains in trace amounts') is that there is a big genetic variability and that some specimens of same species might contain high(er) amounts of harmine and/or other MAO-A inhibitors, and others might contain none or trace amounts only.


Sabnock, I'm not sure I understand your reasoning about the CYP enzymes, can you please expand a bit more on that? Harmalas do not inhibit CYP enzymes, in fact, they are metabolized by them, so that reasoning would be off.. You mention moclobemide only working for an hour, but maybe that's because you haven't taken enough? How much moclobemide did you take?
 
for the record, there is also beta carbolines in raisons and cooked meats, and probly hundreds of other things we eat all the time. Does not mean there is any appreciable ammounts.

I am not saying they are not there or that if you get like 500g of the stuff you cant extract a dose of harmine. I am just saying this is no surprise. Beta carbolines are everywhere. Flowers use beta carbolines to attract bees to pollinate them, who can see them fluoresce..but you would probly have to extract many bags of most flowers to get any amount of beta carbolines. Keep this in mind. There is a lot of other stuff in lemon balm.

And yes I am seriously doubting you felt any harmine effects from 10g of lemon balm. Flavanoids are active and can have sedative and stoning effects. I am very familiar and rather sensitive to the effects of harmine, and I have taken fresh lemon balm many times recently and never felt any kind of harmala effect. I just felt typical, very mild flavonoid like effects.
 
I understand Endlessness and Jamie. It can be Harmine, it can be flavanoids, it could be something or it could be nothing.

Endlessness, i understand my bubble could be burst but hey, it's worth the testing i think. About some species, i did read the other day that apparently there are genetic variations of Lemon Balm and that a strain called QUEDLINBURGER is supposed to have an higher essential oil content, so that could be something. The CYP disscussion will continue here - Alternative pathways of degradation of DMT and their inhibition - DMT Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus


And Jamie, yeah i know beta carbolines are in quite alot of things, and that while anything could have em' they need to be in a high enough amount. Even if Lemon Balm doesn't contain Harmine, it still contains MAO-A inhibiting flavanoids that could very well be used orally to extend smoked DMT/Changa. I mean, i realize all this Lemon Balm talk could very well be for nothing, but i'm an Aspergers guy and once i have my mind set on something i will try my very best to get to the bottom of it. As for what i felt, to me, it felt very similar to a Harmala feel, and unless flavanoids are capable of providing the same headspace/feeling then idk, but i think it wouldn't be exact due to the Harmalas' other effects that separate them from other MAO-A/I's.

All in all, we shall see, and like i've stated, even IF Harmine isn't in Lemon Balm, or is in too low amounts, Lemon Balm is still a plant which i believe holds many viable options, even if just for use as a Changa base, atleast there's that.
 
Just wanna update here and say that i found this paper - 032912b.membershipsoftware.org/libdocuments/Herbs_Dep_Anx_Insom_Review.pdf - when looking up on German Chamomile, and when reading through it, it brought up Lemon Balm on page 32, and it says "Potent in vitro inhibitor of rat brain GABA transaminase (GABA-T). MAO-A inhibition. Acute dosing caused a significant increase in self-rated calmness on a human stress tests"

It said it has MAO-A inhibition, and i'm gonna see if i can find what sources it has to say that, but still, if it has MAO-A inhibition, then shouldn't it (dose dependently) be able to orally activate DMT? Or at the very least extend the duration of smoked DMT?
 
From my own bio assaying of our lemon balm bush here on the homestead I haven't felt distinctive harmalas effects. It does as Jaime put it have stoning or sedating effects like the standard beta carb feeling of Muna. Quite relaxing and warm.

I use a lot of LB in my changas and find it makes a much nicer blend than using caapi only leaf matter but whats in it I have no idea. I doubt its significant harmine levels as a hunch.
 
Yeah, you're right about that olympus, but then even if Harmine isn't there or is in such low amounts, there's still the question of MAO-A inhibition perhaps from the Eugenol in it, or some of the flavonoids in it.
 
Hey Da Dao, if you're still contemplating that feverfew tea... be warned that herb tastes absolutely foul even in small amounts! Not sure about human toxicity of pyrethrins, but that might be a concern too, with large amounts.
 
Sabnock said:

Now, i've made some Changa using Lemon Balm and Acacia Confusa extract. The Lemon Balm for sure contains Harmine (as well as Eugenol which is said also to inhibit MAO-A), and comparing the resulting Changa to my last batch of Changa using Caapi leaves, i'd def. have to say that to me it seems the Harmine levels are similar/equal to or maybe even greater than, those in Caapi leaves.

I've put 100 grams worth of Mimosa onto 10 grams of Caapi leaf before, and after putting 100 grams of Acacia onto 12 grams of Lemon Balm, it's about the same potency i believe, if not a little more potent.

Which brings up the question, would Lemon Balm tea be a good oral DMT activator for Ayahuasca? It is a fact, that it will activate DMT orally due to the Harmine, the only question is how much Harmine is in the Lemon Balm?

I've mentioned this on another forum here recently and one said he'll give it a go when he get's the time, to see if Lemon Balm tea can indeed activate DMT orally. I myself, will also attempt it when i get the supplies and time needed.

If anyone else is up for some experimentation, by all means give it a try and please do report back :)
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It may be interesting to take a kilo of dried material and make some 100x extract. Put that sucker in some change and see what happens. Don't let the naysayers convince you to not pursue your ambitions. Just think, if everyone just listened to the greater majority and didn't follow their own ideas we may be still stuck in the dark ages :surprised .
 
Nice posts Sabnock.

i had an MAO-A/I like headspace with the Cannabis, and it didn't seem sedative to me, instead it felt a little uplifting, i even caught myself smiling/laughing a little.
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the lemons-
Lemon, lemongrass, lemonbalm and others contain compounds that you may have confused for harmalas. I have gotten a high before from rubbing lemon essential oil over my skin. (diluted w/ olive oil to prevent skin irritation)
..eugenol, limonene, myrcene, alpha and beta-pinene..
constituents will vary but
these plants have psychoactive effect. mood lift, calm fuzzy stimulation, tracers, brightening and sharpening of visual field, some mild visual effects.

^^the above mentioned terpenes, aside from eugenol?, are all found in cannabis.

I have even moistened rolling papers with lemon oil because many of the constituents are also found in cannabis. and it softens the high, def seemed to reduce feelings of paranoia.

It could be potentiating the changa without necessarily having great levels of harmine.

If it does contain harmine, wouldn't lemon balm tea glow under a black light?
 
Sabnock said:
Just wanna update here and say that i found this paper - 032912b.membershipsoftware.org/libdocuments/Herbs_Dep_Anx_Insom_Review.pdf - when looking up on German Chamomile, and when reading through it, it brought up Lemon Balm on page 32, and it says "Potent in vitro inhibitor of rat brain GABA transaminase (GABA-T). MAO-A inhibition. Acute dosing caused a significant increase in self-rated calmness on a human stress tests"

It said it has MAO-A inhibition, and i'm gonna see if i can find what sources it has to say that, but still, if it has MAO-A inhibition, then shouldn't it (dose dependently) be able to orally activate DMT? Or at the very least extend the duration of smoked DMT?
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Most likely the MAO inhibition from chamomile will be negligible, unless you really smoke/eat A LOT of it.

Check the values in the paper, and specificall the IC50 values; chamomile aqueous extract inhibits MAO with an IC50 of 48mg/L. Compared this value to, say, harmine that has an IC50 of ~0.4μg/L; what the numbers roughly mean is that chamomile extract is ~ 10,000 times weaker than harmine at inhibiting MAO-A.

There is a difference between "MAO inhibitor" and "potent MAO inhibitor".
 
Almost anything that have flavonoid eaten raw will have minor maoi activity, BUT
Micromolar MAO concentrations are pretty lame, pharmaceutically speaking. Unless you're taking grams and grams of the pure compound, & it builds up in the brain.

Piperine competitively inhibited MAO-A and MAO-B with Ki values of 19.0+/-0.9 microM and 3.19+/-0.5 microM

Quercetin has also been shown to [inhhibit] MAO-A (IC50 = 18 +/-0.2 microM) and especially MAO-B (IC50 = 0.2 +/-0.02 microM)

Rosiridin inhibits MAO-B at approx. 10 micromolar concentrations.

IC50 (required concentration to inhibit 50% of the enzyme) for segeligine: 1.7 uM (1700 nM) for MAO-A, and 6.8 nM for MAO-B

Quercertin is therefore approximately 1/30 as effective as a MAO-B inhibitor as segelegine, mole for mole (sp). The flavonoids are actually pretty carppy MAOI's because they are very water soluble and easily metabolized, so I doubt it's going to produce a MAOI effect at human doses.

Resveratrol has been found to be a potent and highly selective reversible inhibitor of monoamine oxidase type A (RIMA) with an IC50 of 2.0μM and a Ki value of 2.5μM in rat brains. but has also MAO-B inhibition if i can remember.

There are also curcumin,rutin and others that don'T come to my mind now but there are plenty.

I doubt they will be as cheap, effective and side effects free as Rue or as effective and side effect free as cappi :D

Note that i would love activating with pepper or lemon balm but rue is sooo cheap why bother extracting and lose money for the sake of science + too much gaba in the brain you wont be able to remember the experience even more, bad thing, very bad thing.
 
Cant speak to it being a MAOI or not, but from a herbalism background this is one of the very few herbs that has little to not effective use dry as opposed to fresh, so if trying it, try a fresh tea.
I hit across this again recently accidentally in a book on aromatherapy of all things!
Oil of lemon balm is classified as a stupificant (narcotic) in France, which is what grabbed my attention.
One traditional (oral) preparation involves steeping fresh leaves in vodka along with
- nutmeg
- cinnamon
- Lemon peel
- Cloves
3 out of 4 of which are found in space past and one (lemon peel/oil) which i have read some people use to potentiate other trips.
Worth revisiting i feel - i have a lot growing around my place, so i'll try look at making an enhanced leaf/strong tincture to see it it has a discernible effect on my Salvia tincture use.
 
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