LSH / LSI doubts

[FractAlien]

Hi guys

I have been extracting LSA from HBWR seeds with naphtha and grain alcohol for a few years now.

Now, I intend to try the controversial LSH/LSI, and for that I bought a cheap white wine and some essential oil of "peppermint". The essential oil I bought came with a GC-MS laboratory analysis, however, among the identified compounds I did not find anything that referred to isovaleraldehyde, or even acetaldehyde... is it possible that they are related among the minority or unidentified compounds? Or worse, that the oil does not have the compounds??

In any case, it is reported that the wine has some acetaldehyde, which could form LSH.

I extracted 7.32g of HBWR seeds, and ended up with approximately 210mg of extract (in fact I had an accident and lost more than half of the alcohol in a fall...).

I intend to make 7 doses of 30 mg (50 ml white wine) with the following scheme:
210 mg LSA EtOH
350 ml white wine
2 drops of peppermint essential oil
2 ml vinegar alcohol

All of this is stirred for 1 hour with a magnetic stirrer in an ice bath.

I have doubts about whether it would be possible to form LSI since I am not sure if my oil has the necessary aldehydes.

Another question is whether I would be able to form at least LSH by simply stirring with white wine and vinegar.

Any suggestions or tips would be very welcome. Thank you.

 

[newusername1]

Your doubts are completely justified. As far as i know, it has never been proven that either LSI or LSH can indeed be produced this way.
The natural LSH content of the seeds varies anyway, so everytime someone experienced LSD-like effects from these concoctions it might as well have been because the LSH was present in sufficient quantities anyway.

 

[FractAlien]

Yes, you hit the nail on the head.

I am very familiar with the effect of LSA. I have never had access to fresh seeds to compare.

I have everything in hand, I will test it anyway.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Your doubts are completely justified. As far as i know, it has never been proven that either LSI or LSH can indeed be produced this way.
The natural LSH content of the seeds varies anyway, so everytime someone experienced LSD-like effects from these concoctions it might as well have been because the LSH was present in sufficient quantities anyway.

There are lots of people who swear they have had an LSD like experience. Probably enough to show there's something going on. Also enough negative reports to show that, at the least, it's not a dependable thing.

There do seem to be more positive reports as to very fresh or even immature (fresh) seeds.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I do have a question for the chemists here. Suppose one were to grow Morning Glory seeds and find that the fresh and/or immature seeds were much more desirable. And then one were to make a homogenous mixture which worked well. How would one go about preserving this alkaloid profile? The instability of the desirable alkaloids seems to be the biggest problem here. Freezing? Some type of salt?

 

[blig-blug]

I do have a question for the chemists here. Suppose one were to grow Morning Glory seeds and find that the fresh and/or immature seeds were much more desirable. And then one were to make a homogenous mixture which worked well. How would one go about preserving this alkaloid profile? The instability of the desirable alkaloids seems to be the biggest problem here. Freezing? Some type of salt?

I'm most definitely not a chemist, but regarding the stability, LSD is most stable in form of tartrate salt. So I wouldn't be surprised that the ergot alkaloids in Morning Glory would be more stable in that form as well. But I would also appreciate what an actual chemist has to say about it.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

I was reading a reddit thread on the question of LSH/LSI conversion which brought up an interesting thought. According to the poster, he had read a study that LSA actually diminished the effects of other psychedelics. I am kicking myself for not bookmarking the thread and I wish I could find such a study.

Anyway, his (and some others') theory is that it's possible that all the things people are doing to form adducts are actually just destroying LSA and allowing the other alkaloids to be more felt. That could explain the unpredictability and the reason why so many folks say it's "definitely different".

I've also read that iso-LSA might have more euphoric and less sedative effects.

Anyway, if anyone has ever read that LSA might diminish other psychedelics anywhere, I'd love to look into that.

I have a few Heavenly Blue plants going and I was thinking it might be nice to do a small amount of seeds to synergise other psychs while minimizing side effects. Anyone ever done that?

 

[Jamie01]

Not sure where else to put this but it is relevant and maybe already posted elsewhere?

 

[Cognitive Heart]

Not sure where else to put this but it is relevant and maybe already posted elsewhere?

Yes, it's posted in this most recent thread:

Sprouting morning glory first?

 

[Transform]

We'll have to wait and see what Prof. Nichols make of this. Most of my own criticisms are in that other thread.

Anyway, his (and some others') theory is that it's possible that all the things people are doing to form adducts are actually just destroying LSA and allowing the other alkaloids to be more felt. That could explain the unpredictability and the reason why so many folks say it's "definitely different".

That's a smart hypothesis and shouldn't be overlooked

 

[Jamie01]

The effects of HBWR is never consistent for me. One day it’s great and the next time I will feel totally poisoned.

 

[Transform]

The effects of HBWR is never consistent for me. One day it’s great and the next time I will feel totally poisoned.

Tbf, I've felt both in the same trip. Making myself vomit helped a lot.

 

[Jagube]

The effects of HBWR is never consistent for me. One day it’s great and the next time I will feel totally poisoned.

I've had one great experience with those, one or two good ones, and a couple of train wrecks (mostly due to the physical discomfort).

The great one was my first time with HBWR, and my first psychedelic experience.

 

[Ugx]

I wouldn't count out LSH just yet. It's possible with careful cultivating that hbwr leaves and fresh fruits/seeds of heavenly blue are hallucinogenic if used sublingually.

 

[secpropyl]

We'll have to wait and see what Prof. Nichols make of this.

According to the bluelight thread Nichols is working on "LSI" –which btw the proper name is LSiP for isopentanal– and also the version with an OH group aka α-hydroxy. Nichols made 3-LSP which was also mentioned in that thread.

 

[secpropyl]

Tbf, I've felt both in the same trip. Making myself vomit helped a lot.

I seem to recall an older user (maybe kash) saying that sublingual ROA works.

 

[Quetzal7]

Yesterday TR , me and a friend:

18HBW (9 each). Peel then grinded. The grinding wasn't as fine as i wish, as it was a small quantity and they didn't "catch" very well in the coffee grinder.

Added 150ml freshly opened Sherry wine + some peppermint leaves.
Rest in the fridge at 8°C for 12h. Filter and drank cold.

Result : smooth come up, nearly no body load. Trip was typical HBW, but not strong at all - could be the grinding, could the batch of seeds. Though i enjoyed it 100% and the teachings were spot on, impeccable, perfect ,immaculate like always with HBW. The bodyload was very light, but this is about expected for the intensity of the trip.

So not sure this made any difference at all.

We reflected on possible improvements :

Sprout the seed by soaking for 3 days?
Mix with actively fermenting juice (like apple juice? i have some homemade)
Add peppermint essential oil

Maybe combining these 3 ideas, and adding the wine too, just in case... and see if something happens.

Please comment on what we should/could do next, we are happy to keep testing.

The truth is, these ergot alk are about as mysterious as it can get, and they play on our paradigm of consciousness itself, so not sure any "science" and "systematization" is possible... this is damn subtle level of magic!

 

[Ugx]

It's really not; you're either novice or deliberately being deceptive. You effectively destroyed any LSH that was left with that prep. LSI has all ready been debunked as it's not physiologically stable, unlike LSH if gastric acid is avoided.

 

[Quetzal7]

It's really not; you're either novice or deliberately being deceptive. You effectively destroyed any LSH that was left with that prep. LSI has all ready been debunked as it's not physiologically stable, unlike LSH if gastric acid is avoided.

i got that Sherry wine tek somewhere here. Can you explain why it is wrong?

 

[secpropyl]

LSI has all ready been debunked as it's not physiologically stable, unlike LSH if gastric acid is avoided.

Aren't all these aldehyde adducts somewhat similarly (un)stable? Particularly the short chain aldehydes eg acetaldehyde, propanal, isopentanal.