magnetic stirrer question

[geko]

Just a small question here. If a magnetic stirrer is used during naphta extraction and is left ON overnight, would you still do several pulls or just one pull with increased amount of solvent? In other kind of extractions usually the multiple pull part is skipped if a stirrer plate is used for a long period of time, but I would still like to hear someone's experience with pulling DMT this way.

Thanks

 

[desal]

I have a stir bar, but it just stirs the solution, doesn't really seem to get the naphtha mixed through the solution very well. I still turn end over end, or I balance my ratio out to where there is little to no emulsion and shake shake shake and let separate.

But then again, I am also doing this with the plant bark still in the solution, so that could be a factor as well.

I could be wrong but I think that you will always want to do multiple pulls, just to be sure that you got everything out of the solution. If you only did one pull, you could always be leaving some behind and never know it.

 

[Clockwork Maggot]

hi, can't say I'm experienced with stirrers but in my mind I'm seeing layers separate top and bottom with stirring being done at the bottom creating a bit of a whirl pool effect, layers would still be separated so I don't see how it's going to mix sufficiently to benefit from using it.

IMO stirrers would be best suited for dissolving solutes into a solvent or mixing things which generally stay together when mixed, like paints + tints, rather than separating layers. but like I say I'm no pro, that's just what I'm thinking.

 

[expandaneum]

yes you need to do more then one pull if you use a magnetic stirrer. (the reason behind this has been explained countless times so do a search if you want to know more.)

If you have a proper stirrer it will mix the polar and non polar easily.

take care

 

[geko]

Hi and thanks for the replies. A good magnetic stirrer will mix basified solution and NPS quite well. My question was strictly on the usefulness of multiple pulls when using a stirrer. I was not talking however of the theory behind equilibrium laws, etc. Not to mention that equilibrium laws do not apply so much when the alkaloid is 100% freebased.

I was asking from the point of view of practical application - i.e. letting a stirrer stir with one big pull 24 hours v.s. making 3 smaller pulls with combined, say 3 hours of stirring, would there be any difference in yield? I guess not, as I've seen proven with other kinds of extractions, but i would nevertheless appreciate the observation of someone who has actually verified this with DMT.

 

[mr Whippy]

end over end and round and round just for a minute every 15 mins for an hour then decant/syphon the naptha into a jar and do it another 2 or maybe 3 more times that is only if you use powder bark in the extraction that works a lot better than chopped bark [surface area] never shake stirring does little..buy a strong coffee grinder and grind that bark to DUST.. from mr whippy.

 

[geko]

end over end and round and round just for a minute every 15 mins for an hour then decant/syphon the naptha into a jar and do it another 2 or maybe 3 more times that is only if you use powder bark in the extraction that works a lot better than chopped bark [surface area] never shake stirring does little..buy a strong coffee grinder and grind that bark to DUST.. from mr whippy.

Thanks, but this has nothing to do with my question. Stirring does the job much better than any number of rolls, etc. I have access to lab equipment, and I am not talking about DIY stirrers.

I am asking a specific question to persons who have specific experience with using a magnetic stirrer in a particular scenario. I know well the basics, and even the not-so basics of doing extractions, I still just can't post to the appropriate section of the forum and hope that someone with actual experience will notice this here.

 

[benzyme]

there are plenty of people with experience here, who have attempted the same, and your situation is not unique. as was mentioned, a search would confirm this.

 

[DansMaTete]

As at least 2 people said before, search is the key :

FAQ - DMT Frequently Asked Questions and Troubleshooting Guide - DMT-Nexus Wiki

wiki.dmt-nexus.me

It applies also to stirrers

 

[benzyme]

since it's naphtha (which dmt isn't highly soluble in to begin with), multiple pulls are suggested, regardless of the agitation method.
if the solvent were, say, methylene chloride, then it would be a different story.

 

[geko]

To my surprise, the people who have answered here obviously don't understand what I'm asking about and why. The answers given here are not correct as far as my specific question goes.

So, after this has been extensively tested in a lab during the past week, with consistent results, I will post the answer to my own question:

There is no significant gain in doing multiple pulls with Naphta if enough solvent is used and the basified solution (with NPS included) is left to stir with a good lab-grade magnetic stirrer for 24 hours. The difference between a single pull done this way and 3 separate 24h pulls is negligable - about 3% more yeld. A single 24h pull can extract close to 2% from very good quality MHRB. The correct way to stir is to set the vortex so that there remains a very thin film of NPS on the cone. If the other parameters of the solution are right, this will not lead to any emulsion forming.

These results confirm my theoretical assumption that the equilibrium laws do not apply if we have freebased alkaloids - they migrate to the NPS if given enough surface contact and time and if the pull time is so prolonged multiple pulls are not necessary at all. The explanation of all that is very straightforward, and as you say, has been covered in these forums.... use the search function.

 

[benzyme]

I have a "lab-grade" stirrer, as do many others here. The stirrer is not the issue, neither is equilibria (acid/base equilibria? you didn't specify pH ranges), it's solubility... and that is relevant to solvent selection.

it doesn't matter if you use a Corning, or Corsair fan as a stirrer. Make sure you've achieved optimal cell lysis, basify to pH 13, and pick a decent solvent.

 

[geko]

acid/base equilibria? you didn't specify pH ranges..

Of course that's not what I'm talking about. You are a chemist.., really?

Chemical equilibrium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am not interested to further this particular discussion, especially on this level. I have answered my own question. No hard feelings. Have a good day.

 

[Randomness]

acid/base equilibria? you didn't specify pH ranges..

Of course that's not what I'm talking about. You are a chemist.., really?

Chemical equilibrium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am not interested to further this particular discussion, especially on this level. I have answered my own question. No hard feelings. Have a good day.

Technically speaking Benzyme is right.

I have used a magnetic stirrer to great effect on occasion.

You were asking if it would reduce the number of pulls needed. It can reduce the effort needed to get all the spice out in two pulls for sure. The key is not mixing like a madman to blend the polar and non polar together. Doing so creates a nightmarish emulsion.

What works a treat is a long stir (overnight) whilst in acidic solution followed by slowly adding sodium hydroxide until the solution stops changing colour. At this point switch your heat on to 60-70c and reduce stirring speed. Then carefully add 30-50ml of NPS wait 5 mins and pull the solvent. For the next pull just do the same and it should all be out (I always do a courtesy pulp to be sure)

Beware of using to much bark 100g per L is around the limit or the solution will not stir and can trap the solvent.

I get close to 3% yield doing the outlined technique and the pulls dump crystals as soon as they meet a cool surface either in the syringe I use to pull or my dish.

You want the bark soup to have good contact with the NPS but them both to remain separate layers homogenising them is a bad idea.

 

[geko]

Technically speaking Benzyme is right.

I have used a magnetic stirrer to great effect on occasion.

You were asking if it would reduce the number of pulls needed. It can reduce the effort needed to get all the spice out in two pulls for sure. The key is not mixing like a madman to blend the polar and non polar together. Doing so creates a nightmarish emulsion.

What works a treat is a long stir (overnight) whilst in acidic solution followed by slowly adding sodium hydroxide until the solution stops changing colour. At this point switch your heat on to 60-70c and reduce stirring speed. Then carefully add 30-50ml of NPS wait 5 mins and pull the solvent. For the next pull just do the same and it should all be out (I always do a courtesy pulp to be sure)

Beware of using to much bark 100g per L is around the limit or the solution will not stir and can trap the solvent.

I get close to 3% yield doing the outlined technique and the pulls dump crystals as soon as they meet a cool surface either in the syringe I use to pull or my dish.

You want the bark soup to have good contact with the NPS but them both to remain separate layers homogenising them is a bad idea.

Thanks a lot Randomness for the excellent information! This method will be tested ASAP.

 

[benzyme]

acid/base equilibria? you didn't specify pH ranges..

Of course that's not what I'm talking about. You are a chemist.., really?

Chemical equilibrium - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

I am not interested to further this particular discussion, especially on this level. I have answered my own question. No hard feelings. Have a good day.

you didn't specify which type of equilibrium, there's also solubility equlibrium/dynamic equilibrium.
it helps to specify which pH ranges you're working with, to determine the percentage of protonated/free base species in sol'n, i.e.
pH of <12 can lead to a >3% remaining in the aqueous phase, no matter how much you stir it.

btw, there is never 100% free base.

 

[Randomness]

Technically speaking Benzyme is right.

I have used a magnetic stirrer to great effect on occasion.

You were asking if it would reduce the number of pulls needed. It can reduce the effort needed to get all the spice out in two pulls for sure. The key is not mixing like a madman to blend the polar and non polar together. Doing so creates a nightmarish emulsion.

What works a treat is a long stir (overnight) whilst in acidic solution followed by slowly adding sodium hydroxide until the solution stops changing colour. At this point switch your heat on to 60-70c and reduce stirring speed. Then carefully add 30-50ml of NPS wait 5 mins and pull the solvent. For the next pull just do the same and it should all be out (I always do a courtesy pulp to be sure)

Beware of using to much bark 100g per L is around the limit or the solution will not stir and can trap the solvent.

I get close to 3% yield doing the outlined technique and the pulls dump crystals as soon as they meet a cool surface either in the syringe I use to pull or my dish.

You want the bark soup to have good contact with the NPS but them both to remain separate layers homogenising them is a bad idea.

Thanks a lot Randomness for the excellent information! This method will be tested ASAP.

No worries not a problem.

One thing I forgot to mention is that I like to take my powdered bark and put it in a jar and add vinegar to it to make a paste. I leave it like this for a few days before extracting. I think it helps and it only takes a couple of minuets of effort. This combined with the long stir before adding lye ensures the material is good and broken down.

You will see a big frothy mess when you first start stirring but after a few hours all the trapped air will have come out and you should have a nice dark liquid with a sediment that quickly separates out when stirring is ceased. This is the point where I add the lye and from then on in everything proceeds very quickly. The heat helps to supersaturate the NPS.

I do find some plant oils waxes and such can migrate into the NPS once the spice is done (especially with higher temps) so if you do a third pull keep this separate.

Good luck with the extraction