Man made Law

[spinCycle]

Two different things at work here, principle and practicality.

Pretty much everyone here probably agrees that in principle there is no justification for marijuana being illegal. Few or none of us would in principle justify paying attention to that law.

From a practical perspective, some people have to acknowledge the existence of the law however. There are places where, though technically illegal, the law is virtually unenforced. Sometimes by crossing over into the next state or even town though you can suddenly find yourself in legal jeopardy if caught.

There are many states where it is now legal for those with a medical card and WA and CO have legalized at the state level, but it is still legal to be denied employment for failing a drug test. In some cases it is up to the company to decide policy, but if you have a commercial driver's license for example the feds still make the rules. Other industries have similar restrictions.

Is this right? Of course not. From a practical perspective, some people have to deal with it though, just to get by. Sucks, but that's the way it is. If you are going to break the law, take all possible precautions of course, but sometimes things just go wrong.

Philosopher, good luck with making the best of a bad situation. I suggest you do whatever you can to get a medical permit as soon as you can. Walking into a dispensary and making a legal purchase is a beautiful thing. After a lifetime of black market and prohibition, I still find it almost surreal to walk into a shop and have a few dozen strains as well as great hashish and edibles all available and legal. :thumb_up:

 

[jamie]

if having to pay money to a bunk medical system supported by bunk law makers just so as an adult you have the right to smoke a joint in a "free" country is practical than I guess people can sit around and discuss that for as long as they like.

..doesnt mean it's right.

Doesnt take much to see the irony of some of the responses in this thread.

 

[christian]

I think that is a sort of deluded response. It is a fallacy to compare anything is this thread to silly hippies who think they can do whatever they want..but good luck with this sort of reasoning.

Well Jamie, sounds like you just get a kick out of arguing like some kinda -------.

 

[a1pha]

Is this right? Of course not. From a practical perspective, some people have to deal with it though, just to get by. Sucks, but that's the way it is. If you are going to break the law, take all possible precautions of course, but sometimes things just go wrong.

Well-said, spinCycle!

Let me be clear - I'm on NO moral high-ground here. I break the law all the time as it's written. I think many of the laws are crazy, stupid, etc. Sodomy is still illegal in some places for Darwin's sake! As is having sex with the lights on in Virginia, or in any position other than missionary!

That said, if you are going to break the law then you need to take every possible precaution to mitigate the damage. In your case, Philosopher, a simple $100 MMJ card would have saved you all the pain and suffering caused by being caught buying on the street. Is it right, in the moral sense, for a simple plant to be outlawed? Of course not. But it is...

Not trying to be hard on you but I hope others out there learn from your mistake.

 

[Philosopher]

To a1pha, I do see your point that I could have gotten a card and therefor it would've been legal for me. The problem with that is, I don't think one must be sick in order to have these innate personal freedoms. I don't want to exaggerate a symptom just to be able to smoke marijuana. Although it is easy and possible, I just wish it were another way. But I definitely should not have taken the risk of possessing weed illegally, no matter what I think.

We can't live in a utopia, but we can work towards a more perfect system. These discussions are necessary, even though it is perhaps philosophical or wishful hypothetical worlds, we can do anything with this great country. Our constitution allows these rational and much needed amendments.

 

[jamie]

"Philosopher, a simple $100 MMJ card would have saved you all the pain and suffering"

For some people that could mean they dont eat for a few days..or cant pay rent. Noone should have to pay $100 to able to legally smoke cannabis in the first place. The idea that that makes any sense is freaking rediculous and just highlights how unevolved our society is.

Of course having a medical marijuana card would be ideal in the case of being caught with cannabis in a state that allows for medical marijuana..but that is sort of a point with very little moral relevance.

What is right is what IS right. I dont see the point in entertianing the ideals of a bunk drug war and medical system that seeks to profit from sick individuals.

 

[jamie]

I think that is a sort of deluded response. It is a fallacy to compare anything is this thread to silly hippies who think they can do whatever they want..but good luck with this sort of reasoning.

Well Jamie, sounds like you just get a kick out of arguing like some kinda -------.

Yes, good one.:?

 

[spinCycle]

"Philosopher, a simple $100 MMJ card would have saved you all the pain and suffering"

For some people that could mean they dont eat for a few days..or cant pay rent. Noone should have to pay $100 to able to legally smoke cannabis in the first place. The idea that that makes any sense is freaking rediculous and just highlights how unevolved our society is.

Of course having a medical marijuana card would be ideal in the case of being caught with cannabis in a state that allows for medical marijuana..but that is sort of a point with very little moral relevance.

What is right is what IS right. I dont see the point in entertianing the ideals of a bunk drug war and medical system that seeks to profit from sick individuals.

jamie, I think you are misunderstanding something about medical marijuana in this country. Yes, there are a considerable number of people who are gaming the system so that they can smoke without fear of the law. But overall the MMJ system is not part of the bunk medical system, it is in fact an alternative to that medical system for a great many people who would otherwise be left with far less desirable choices such as opiates for pain management, etc. In many cases marijuana actually is the best choice of medicine such as for relief of nausea and restoring appetite for cancer patients on chemo therapy. Big pharma HATES medical marijuana. Trust me, it is not part of their bunk system.

I myself use it for legitimate relief from symptoms of a brain injury and surgery. It helps with headaches and other very real symptoms. Opiates would be way overkill for most of my symptoms and aspirin and such does nothing for some of them. It also happens that I use it recreationally. One does not preclude the other.

Even for those who smoke only recreationally, I would argue that it is good medicine in that it is a fairly benign form of stress relief and management and stress is a major killer in modern industrial societies. Stress relief may not be a legitimate use under MMJ laws, but doctors often prescribe prescription medicines for 'off-label' uses, meaning things the drugs were not designed for, but do help. This is a common practice. So if smoking some buds accidentally also lowers stress for someone, that is good medicine indeed.

Even for those who are just gaming the system to get weed to party with, I really have to say, so what? All of them together will never do a fraction of the damage that Wall Street and the banking industry, the industrial military complex, big pharma and the chemical industries have done to our world. If a $100 permit keeps them out of the clutches of the for profit prison system in this country, I can only see that as a good thing.

I agree, absolutely NO reason why this should be illegal. You, however, have the luxury of living in a relatively sane country. I noticed that recently you were shocked to learn that people in the US can be arrested just for having a pipe w/ resins in it. It sucks. It is unjust but that's the way it is here. If a permit will keep someone legal until our laws finally can be changed for good, I cannot see the harm in that.

You are right, no one should have to go through all of that just to smoke weed. The reality is that on this side if the border it is often the best choice at this time. It is a practical choice vs a philosophical choice.

 

[jamie]

Okay but I never even adressed the medical effects of cannabis. We all know it has proven medical applications.

Why should s person have to pay 100 bucks to be able to use a medicine that they can grow in their own backyard?

You dont pay for a card that says your allowed to use aspirin.

It is a silly arrangement..reguardless of the fact that it is just a way to deal with the current situation..the current situation is bunk and this is the result..another bunk situation.

Im tired of this society of excuses.

 

[spinCycle]

Well, sure, it is wrong. I agree. No one should have to pay for permission to use an herb for any purpose - food, medicine or recreational. It's just that in the US there are currently 2 choices, pay a fee for a med card if you are lucky enough to live in a state that has it, or don't and take your chances with the law. That law can be anything from a slap on the wrist to an extended stay in jail depending on where you live.

Used to be in Ohio any possession of any amount was a mandatory 10 year jail sentence, no chance of parole. :shock: There were literally people doing 10 years for getting caught with a roach. After decriminalization in the 70s it was a misdemeanor with a $100 fine for a quarter lb.

Now that the ball is rolling, I expect we'll see full legalization at the federal level in 10 to 15 years. $100 or so to avoid jail time seems like a pretty good insurance policy until then.

 

[jamie]

Sure if you can afford the 100 bucks than go for it..but it doesnt mean that someone else who gets busted and does not have a card has themself to blame like some other people have insinuated previously in this thread. Really it baffles me that people here can think this way..as if they are not just another innocent victim of the "war on drugs".

It seems like an attitude that makes excuses for the state of the system and tries to put blame on the victim instead of blaming the oppressers.

...and for some sick people 100 bucks really IS a lot of money. Personally I think a lot of people claim they need cannabis for medical problems when really they are just sort of psychologically addicted to cannabis and dont need it medicinally in the way they claim. That is fine and all if you want to smoke cannabis all day long and everyone should have the right to do that as long as they dont endanger others..but know that there are people who are actaully really sick and cant work and paying 100 bucks for a medical card really could put them on the street or take food off of their table. It is not fair to say the least.

 

[Khronos]

Philosopher,

Thank you for your post. It touched a raw nerve with me and I agree with everything you wrote in the opening. Let me add that I'm sorry you are being churned through the processes of a bullshit system. Being labelled and judged as something you aren't hurts. Fortunately, you clearly see through it all so I doubt you'll become embittered (which would double the punishment in effect wouldn't it?).

Two different things at work here, principle and practicality.

Spot on there my friend. Not to offend anyone, but I feel that stressing the practical aspects of taking responsibility for your actions, being cautious etc. are self evident and aren't adding to the philosophical groundings of the discussion.

I guess the same could be said for ranting about the barbarity of drug legislation, societal ignorance and the penal system (all of which enrage me too fwiw). It reminds me of a quote (Shaw I think):

"You see things and you say, 'Why?' But I dream things that never were and I say, 'Why not?'"

So practicality and principle aside perhaps, what are we doing to change this barbaric culture of oppression? I posted a video in the open discussion which I found inspiring (on Portugal's drug policies). I think that at least you guys in the US still have your freedom of speech (and I'm always inspired to see how strongly people in the US protest).

We need to take intelligent action, form groups in our areas, protest, speak out, change the minds of people we know by example. I hate living in a world where I'm seen as a criminal, and I'm dedicating my life to changing that. Why not?

 

[christian]

Why should s person have to pay 100 bucks to be able to use a medicine that they can grow in their own backyard?


Im tired of this society of excuses.

Jamie, are you making a stand about your strong philosophies, id be interested to know. You see otherwise all i can see is someone moaning about something , when instead they could just ´suck up´, pay 100 bucks and enjoy their medicine.

Whilst i actually understand ´where youre coming from´, i can see no glory in the moaning, sounds like what typical money tight hippies who think everything is free would say. Unfortunately MONEY and Work as a means of attaining it has been the way considered normal for quite a long time. Cut off those dreads, wash off that crappy henna tattoo, and get a job working as the next terence mckenna- Pinchbeck is too nerdy for my liking!

BTW, my cave is the one with the inca designs a few hundred metres south of Sachsayhuaman- feel free to knock should you wish to discuss this further! :d

 

[Valura]

Man made law is the distortion of universal law, which is a kind of abstract knowledge... the rules of living in harmony which are based on logic. As man made law is a distortion, it does not promote harmony and causes the opposite in many cases. So it limits our freedom greatly. True law is not something written on a piece of paper, but a type of inner knowledge which everyone understands. There would be no reason to write on a piece of paper that killing is not allowed, because everyone sufficiently aware can find this out personally with simple logic.

Saying that "you know the consequences" is a weak way out, and by doing so you are supporting the laws created by tyrants, who even violate their own false law. When did I or you ever agree to this "law"? What gives some "organization" called the government the right to dictate what I can and can't do? Absolutely nothing, but the idea that "it's the law" and that the government has a monopoly on violence (which is truly a horrible idea if you think about it).

Truth is, we never agreed to this law. The only thing it means is a bunch of corrupt organisations will attempt to harm you in all kinds of ways if you perform, in most cases a harmless act. And even if you do follow this law, then those organisations will still try to harm you and limit your freedoms.

Anyone saying that disobeying the law means you should accept the consequences is really brainwashed. It is much like the government sends you a threat called "law" about what they will do if you commit some harmless act. And those people are saying you should somehow accept the threat and attack because you were warned in advance. That's just not how it works.

 

[proto-pax]

Best not house a Jew. Your fault if you get thrown into Auschwitz with them if it is found out.

Best not ever engage in homosexual activity. Your fault if you are killed by a self righteous mod after you engage in a consensual homosexual relationship as an adult with a loving partner

Best not try to run away from master's plantation. Your fault if you are beaten if you are caught.

 

[jamie]

Why should s person have to pay 100 bucks to be able to use a medicine that they can grow in their own backyard?


Im tired of this society of excuses.

Jamie, are you making a stand about your strong philosophies, id be interested to know. You see otherwise all i can see is someone moaning about something , when instead they could just ´suck up´, pay 100 bucks and enjoy their medicine.

Whilst i actually understand ´where youre coming from´, i can see no glory in the moaning, sounds like what typical money tight hippies who think everything is free would say. Unfortunately MONEY and Work as a means of attaining it has been the way considered normal for quite a long time. Cut off those dreads, wash off that crappy henna tattoo, and get a job working as the next terence mckenna- Pinchbeck is too nerdy for my liking!

BTW, my cave is the one with the inca designs a few hundred metres south of Sachsayhuaman- feel free to knock should you wish to discuss this further! :d

What makes you think I have dreadlocks or tattoos?

I barley ever touch cannabis. It is not something that is important to me. Why would you assume this is about me?

Also, maybe you dont know this but cannabis is free. This is a case of something that really DOES grow on trees, easily...so you are either stupid or just ignorant making statements about lazy people not wanting to pay 100 bucks just for the right to grow or consume some flowers.

The rest of your post puzzles me as I cant see any relevence.

I guess your best attempt at an arguement is the fallacious use of stereotypes and character assinations to try to prove your point? I wish you luck with that.

 

[Philosopher]

Speaking of money.....

What a lie. Once your tripping its all just different looking paper. The things that matter and are the true valuables in this world are being overtaken by PAPER. The systems of monetization are logical, as long as the citizen remembers that it is just paper which stands for how much you can have. That's all. If you have more money, you are able to have more things. But money has really taken control and corrupted this government and its core democratic values. Big pharma needs to trip sometime.

 

[spinCycle]

Speaking of money.....

What a lie.

It is bizarre, isn't it? It's just this big consensual illusion with nothing at all except for a mutually shared belief to make it all go. Yet people kill for it, suffer for it, live and die for it.



Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realise we cannot eat money.
-- Cree Indian Proverb

 

[Khronos]

Speaking of money.....

What a lie.

It is bizarre, isn't it? It's just this big consensual illusion with nothing at all except for a mutually shared belief to make it all go. Yet people kill for it, suffer for it, live and die for it.



Only when the last tree has died and the last river been poisoned and the last fish been caught will we realise we cannot eat money.
-- Cree Indian Proverb

Touché!

I came across Charles Eisenstein's sacred economics recently. Haven't had time to read it yet, but it resonates.

However horrible the situation, we need to be the catalysts affecting a gradual change in societal values. Certainly, that's the greatest source of meaning in my little life.

 

[Jin]

i will say again what i have been saying all this time

sure the law is unjust , yet we cannot blame it
it like blaming drunk children for the nonsense they do
children will be children and when drunk they are more of a nuisance

the so called governments are made of human beings , which are nothing but older children , and yes they are drunk , they drink everyday after office hours and these drunken idiots cannot really be held responsible for the government

it would probably be better if artificial intelligence was runnin the planet , whatever

the government is drunk people , believe it or not the way things are over the planet , what is the excuse , what excuse can be given for the sorry state of affairs it is for plants and animals and fellow beings sharing this beautiful space that the earth is

man is supposedly the most intelligent being on the planet and still so much negativity and misery man has created for his own kind and others, is man drunk ?

i guess thats it most humans are drunk , drunk with alcohol , power and money and having forgotten what true soberiety is they have messed it up

peace everyone
cheers