Mantak Chia's Endogenous DMT Theories

[Hyperspace Fool]

This is pretty much guaranteed to be controversial here, but I think everyone will get a kick out of this.

In this book: Darkness Technology - Darkness Techniques for Enlightenment (given free here in pdf form on his website), the well known Taoist writer Mantak Chia lays out a very specific theory about endogenous tryptamine production involving the 4 major glands of the head (pituitary, pineal, thalamus and hypothalamus).

The book is not long and I believe anyone on the Nexus will find this book rather interesting... however they feel about Mantak's speculations.

Obviously, he is not a scientist, but the information he presents has some fairly straightforward chemistry in it. He talks about the body converting Tryptophan into Serotonin into Melatonin into Pinoline, DMT and 5 MEO DMT. Though he is going to put a few of you off immediately when he writes seratonin instead of serotonin early on. (typo?)

For those unfamiliar with him, this Thai Taoist master has written over 40 books on what had often been rather secret and well kept Taoist Internal practices. He introduced many people to things like the Healing Sounds, Taoist Sexual Yoga, Iron Shirt Chi Kung, and so on. I have been reading his stuff since his first book, and found him fascinating even when his techniques differed from the ones I had learned from my Sifu(s). (They were usually similar enough that any differences could be attributed to style, lineage and preference...)

At any rate, this book is not available on Amazon as far as I can tell. It is a book he gave out to people attending his Darkness Technology workshops and sold there in hard copy for like 7$. There are a number of short books like this from him on a wide range of topics, but a book about tripping in the dark and making endogenous tryptamines is something that I think everyone here will wanna check out.

I will just say that my yogic experiences vis a vis Qi Gong, tripping, and endogenous production of DMT like effects mirrors what is said here. I have discussed this stuff on other threads, and I know it is the majority opinion around here that this has not been proven and thus falls into people's woo detector traps. Nonetheless, the DMT experience, be it aya, changa, spice whatever, is not really something we can completely explain anyway.

(Note: I make no claim as to the veracity of his material or whether my personal experiences are caused by endogenous tryptamines or simply the power of my will... though I am familiar enough with both to tell them apart. ;-) )

Feel free to dissect his stuff, and I don't mind if we stray into discussing his other works.

 

[Jees]

Slightly surprised to find him here, I had a 3 years course based on his teachings like 15 years ago. It all changed my life for the better, but some part of him is IMHO plain mental_fucking, maybe a necessary tool to reach the modern world these days.

Just because of that I keep more interested in the practical experience of his series of body exercises, rather than in the bulk of his offered "wisdom".

Thanks for the link !

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Yeah, I find that anyone who makes their living in the "self-help industry" is to be taken with a healthy dose of skepticism. There is a ton of good and useful info, but they are also working... and their job is to sell you shit.

The parts of Mantak that I resonated with were always where he showed the internal and physical cultivation exercises that I already knew to be effective. In some cases, he expanded upon things I knew or added a nice flourish or touch to something... in other cases he seemed to be missing a key piece or two that my teachers had given me.

I am of the opinion now that you just have to practice the stuff. As you do the exercises, they teach you how to do them themselves (as airy fairy as that sounds). There is no substitute for grinding out the hours, weeks and years in good old-fashioned kung fu practice. The arts work. And then some... and there is also a lot of immediate benefit.

But wisdom is not something you get from other people. Even the great sages and lovely aphorisms we like to repeat are not actual wisdom. Wisdom is earned the hard way... and even the short cuts are rough... rougher even than the long way.

Anyway, thanks for chiming in Jees. I suspect a lot of people will be able to polish this little book off in no time flat. Seeing as how Darkrooming and Endogenous DMT production are perennial favorite topics around here, I hope we can get some others to sound off as well.

 

[jamie]

I have not read his books but my gf has and wants to go to his retreat. I have only watched his videos online and read sections of some of the books. It is interesting stuff.

He has worked with DMT, with Ananda Bosman..so Mantak def understands what a DMT peak is like. It was through Ananda's work that I first found Mantak.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

I have not read his books but my gf has and wants to go to his retreat. I have only watched his videos online and read sections of some of the books. It is interesting stuff.

Check out this pdf I linked to. It is a quick read and I think you will find it rather fascinating stuff. I had this book for many years and never bothered reading it, having already read some excerpts of the non-DMT stuff. But for whatever reason, it made its way onto my Kindle and I gave it a whirl... and was truly startled to find him spending page after page talking about endogenous tryptamine and beta-carboline production.

The pdf is free, so there is nothing to lose but a handful of minutes perhaps.

;-)

 

[universecannon]

I don't know much about Mantak but I read that .pdf last winter when i was preparing to do a dark room experiment. Unfortunately things came up and i never had the chance to actually do it... The whole area is very interesting but i can't comment on whats true and what isn't, just that many of us do seem to have spontaneous harmala/dmt esque experiences in darkness and its something we should look into more carefully

The is a lot of video reports out there of people who have done these 7-14 day retreats, and it sounds a lot like ayahuasca reports in some cases...sometimes even more profound and integrative, and with some distinct differences. These are often people with no previous experience with psychedelics but who clearly just underwent a powerful life changing experience similar to what we see reported on these forums.

I was actually talking with someone in the chat 2 days ago (I think it was Adam) who has a friend that is into dmt who claims that he can also reach hyperspace through his own dark rooming practice

I've elaborated on the pineal/psychedelic topic elsewhere and don't have any conclusive thoughts about this, but here is how i tend to see it...

People used to disregard the ancient/shamanic cultures usage of plants and fungi to access altered states of consciousness and heal...and now look at the resurgence of interest and research in this area that have completely altered not only our understanding, but how many of us experience reality itself.. Similarly, people also used to think meditation was just a bunch of silly woo woo... and now its spread to every corner of the earth and research has found it useful for dozens upon dozens of things- not to mention that in a short time it can thicken the neocortex, etc etc. Same with yoga...

There is many similar things that could be mentioned.... but considering this trend of ancient knowledge first rejected and then verified, I wouldn't be surprised one bit if a widespread highly regarded ancient practice of going into the darkness of caves to access altered states has far more to it than people currently tend to think

Anyways it would be really interesting if people who have experienced a retreat like this, or done it on their own, could chime in and convey their experiences to us

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

@ UC

There are a few versions of this book floating around in pdf. Most of them are truncated to certain chapters. I think it is possible that the book was handed out in pieces for people to focus on certain parts at certain times in the workshop.

At any rate, the one I first read didn't talk about the endogenous DMT production like the version I linked to does starting on page 2.

As for Darkrooming... it has been part of my inner exploration toolbox since I was a child. I used to go into a large hall closet as a kid and line the floor with pillows and blankets and go out of my way to block all the light leakage. This was a regular thing for me from at least 6 years old. It may have even been younger because I recall climbing into the shelves in the closet a lot and nesting in the upper shelves... even using some blankets in front of me to hide if people came looking. I used to dig hanging in dark spooky places like attics and cellars and caves, and was a fan of Plato's Cave allegory from very very young age.

Hehehehe.

There is no question that sensory deprivation can activate your inner hallucinations. Float tanks are, quite naturally, among my favorite things. But, I find that it is the yogic practice that activates the tryptamine experience for me. I have had endogenous aya-type experiences without any darkness involved... but it always involves a throbbing or pulsing in the middle of my head... and usually involves a rush of some lovely tasting psychoactive saliva into my mouth. (what the Hindu's call AMRITA)

Anyway, I too hope more people chime in here. Whatever people think of Mantak Chia or internal chi kung practices... this is interesting stuff.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

I found this interview interesting. More interesting than what I've read from him (so far).

[YOUTUBE]

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Kind of surprised no one has read the short pdf and decided to comment on it.

Considering that:

1) It is free
2) It discusses hallucinating in the dark
3) It is a manual for endogenous tryptamine and beta-carboline production
4) It is rather short and a quick read (with a lot of diagrams and illustrations)

One would think at least some people would be interested... The DMT talk begins already on pg.3, and pg.1 is the cover. (You can save it to your computer simply by right clicking the link in my first post and "save as" or your OS equivalent without going to his site at all.)

I know people are busy and no one really reads anymore, but considering how often the whole "is DMT produced in the pineal gland" debate comes up around here, one would think that a fairly elaborate explanation of a 4 gland system and a pathway leading from Tryptophan to Pinoline, DMT, and 5 MEO DMT... would be of interest. (If only to poke holes in it or make fun of the Eastern woo-woo talk he uses.)

I mean, here he is giving away a practical technique for making endo-huasca... something a lot of people here have expressed interest in on other threads when I brought it up.



BTW Ufostrahlen, thanks for the vid. I don't find it more interesting than his books though. It is rather basic and "introduction to" level stuff IMHO. Whereas his books tend to give you a plethora of actual techniques, meditations and visualizations. But it is cool to hear him interviewed and get his "origin story" as it were from his own lips.

8)

 

[Ufostrahlen]

BTW Ufostrahlen, thanks for the vid. I don't find it more interesting than his books though. It is rather basic and "introduction to" level stuff IMHO. Whereas his books tend to give you a plethora of actual techniques, meditations and visualizations. But it is cool to hear him interviewed and get his "origin story" as it were from his own lips.

Well the problem I have with his book(s) (The Tao of Sexual Energy I think it's called) is that it's too much to read. I mean, for a western guy this is just too airy-fairy. Whenever I read about chi and chakras I think: man, screw this, I'm doing zazen. For me that's straight to the point. No guru. No school. No excuses.

As for the darkroom mediation: I plan to spend some hours in a floating tank. Reading a book about it makes me feel weird.

But you and Mantak and your stories keep me doing meditation. Let's see if they are true

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Heheheeh

Touché.

I totally understand and respect your point of view. Most of Mantak's material is not beginner level stuff. It is also very unclear to someone just getting into his books (or the internal arts in general) where to begin. It can be overwhelming, and it assumes a basic familiarity with Chinese medicine and Qi Gong to begin with.

Most of his fans tend to be people who already practiced some Tai Chi, Tantra and/or Yoga, and then discovered his stuff to fill in the gaps of what they were taught. People who had gotten as far as their Tai Chi class at the local gym could take them and hungered for some real meat to chew on. People like me, who got all of this material from their sifus tended not to need Mantak, and those with no experience tended to not be ready for it.

I like his work, though. I think this info deserves to be available. Even if you grow up in a remote corner of nowhere and have no opportunity to meet a real Kung Fu master... it should be possible to develop these skills. The 6 Healing Organ Sounds is a good place to begin. (Here for free)

At any rate, trying to master Taoist Sexual Energy techniques when you have not yet experienced chi, and don't believe in meridians or energy centers... is a bit like trying to learn Rocket Science before you learn Algebra. (only moreso)

I hope that you do find this stuff out for yourself though. It is eminently rewarding, and I doubt I would be the person I am today... a person approaching 50 in the shape of most 20 somethings, without the internal arts. I would also not be the psychonaut I am without all that skill in meditation and energy work.

Have fun in the float tank. Sensory deprivation chambers are among my favorite things hands down. (No offense to Julie Andrews, but "brown paper packages tied up in string" doesn't make the top 10,000 for me.)
8)

 

[Ufostrahlen]

At any rate, trying to master Taoist Sexual Energy techniques when you have not yet experienced chi, and don't believe in meridians or energy centers... is a bit like trying to learn Rocket Science before you learn Algebra. (only moreso)

Yeah, that's probably the case. Consider me a total qi gong beginner. I feel that a book doesn't provide the information that a video does.

This video here was more helpful to me when I wanted to know more about "real" qi gong moves. For those, who find Mantak's books rather overwhelming:

[YOUTUBE]

Have fun in the float tank.

Thanks, I'm sure I will. It'll be my second time and I eagerly interested in reproducing and analyzing the effects from last time.

 

[doodlekid]

Been reading the ebook. My impression is that it's hodgepodge of various (popular) streams.

Besides the scientific orientation toward body metabolism, there's a new age angle on DNA stuff, occult body of light stuff and a keen business mind at work.

It's quite good, if you sift there's enough to get something going. It inspired me to take meditation practice into a totally dark room.

There's need for people to get into this stuff. A lot of overstimulation because of artificial light and such.

In a way this work gave me the little bit of information stating: go meditate in total darkness. That was what I sifted out of it. The rest may be interesting, but it's mainly to ensnare people (if you ask me).

So go meditate in the dark and see for yourself.

 

[laughingcat]

Couple of points from a neurochemical/anthropological standpoint:

1. If, as many suggest, the pineal is the site of endogenous DMT production, then it is possible that its production would be triggered by darkness. This is because melatonin, the current primary neurohormone of the pineal, is secreted according to a diurnal rhythm - its production is increased when signals from the retina no longer reach the pineal (i.e. when it gets dark). If I am correct that DMT is an ancestral neuromodulator, once secreted in the same manner as melatonin is now (see my paper for more details - Dropbox - Error - Simplify your life), then its secretion would have peaked during the night. Thus, it may just be possible to coax the pineal into secreting DMT by very extended periods of darkness, although I don't believe (and the evidence supports this) that DMT is currently secreted in significant concentrations during normal hours of darkness (i.e. I don't believe the DMT=dreams stuff that has been propagated);

2. It is interesting that upper paleolithic cave art, often containing strange half-human, half-beast entities (see Hancock - Supernatural), is often found deep underground in total darkness - the explanation is not clear. My suggestion is not that the paintings were done by shamans taking psychedelics, as Hancock and Lewis-Williams suggest, but that the paintings were done by 'endo-shamans' who descended deep into the caves in order to reach complete darkness and trigger endogenous DMT production - we seem to have lost the ability largely, but perhaps not entirely...

So, some of this ancient wisdom may have a basis in our true neurochemical ancestry, but largely forgotten....

 

[Creo]

Sensory deprivation tanks can lead to mind states similar to those induced by psychedelics, maybe the paleolithic cave artists went deep underground for this reason. I can imagine that there isn't going to be much light or sound down there, but I wonder what the ambient temperature and air flow is in those caves?

 

[laughingcat]

Well exactly, this was my point - although I feel that the effect of darkness on consciousness may have been more profound back then, owing to different neurochemistry and elevated endogenous tryptamine secretion than we currently can achieve...

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Been reading the ebook. My impression is that it's hodgepodge of various (popular) streams.

Besides the scientific orientation toward body metabolism, there's a new age angle on DNA stuff, occult body of light stuff and a keen business mind at work.

It's quite good, if you sift there's enough to get something going. It inspired me to take meditation practice into a totally dark room.

There's need for people to get into this stuff. A lot of overstimulation because of artificial light and such.

In a way this work gave me the little bit of information stating: go meditate in total darkness. That was what I sifted out of it. The rest may be interesting, but it's mainly to ensnare people (if you ask me).

So go meditate in the dark and see for yourself.

Indeed.

Darkrooming is trippy, regardless of if Mr. Chia´s explanations hold water or not.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

@laughingcat

Yes, I concur that if the pineal plays a part in this, it is not beyond the pale to imagine that ambient light (or the lack thereof) would play a part. Circadian rhythms are interesting in and of themselves, but it has been discussed plenty of times that the pineal has an "eye like structure" and is certainly photo-sensetive when it comes to melatonin/serotonin conversion etc.

At any rate, our literature is chock full of references to how "spooky" and psychedelic the darkest hours of night are. And, going into caves for visionary purposes is basically synonymous with most kinds of mystics the world over.

Glad that some conversation about this stuff is picking up here. Was beginning to despair that no one was interested.

 

[Keeper Trout]

Lots of interesting things are posted above.
I don't mean to diss any of it by pointing out that someone somewhere needs to show DMT is really produced in the human pineal gland or that serotonin/melatonin can somehow be turned into DMT endogenously (or that birth and death are accompanied by a flood of DMT).
None of those appear to have any actual support in the real world despite how often they can be found presented as if they are established facts.
Darkroom and sensory deprivation techniques are powerful and seriously interesting but too often the people who are most actively promoting them seem to lack the ability to say "I don't know" as often as it is really the truth. Typically this has involved people with some sort of a financial link to the ideas, be it book sales, movie contracts or finding participants for workshops & seminars. Maybe that sounds too cynical but a healthy dose of cynicism is important in this area.
I do not suggest throwing out the baby along with the bathwater but its good to focus on spotting the line between fact and fiction.

 

[laughingcat]

I don't mean to diss any of it by pointing out that someone somewhere needs to show DMT is really produced in the human pineal gland or that serotonin/melatonin can somehow be turned into DMT endogenously (or that birth and death are accompanied by a flood of DMT).
None of those appear to have any actual support in the real world despite how often they can be found presented as if they are established facts.

I know exactly what you mean - it irks me somewhat to repeatedly read that "DMT is released in small amounts by the pineal when you dream and floods the brain at the point of death"... of course, these "facts" were only ever suggested as ideas (by Callaway and Strassman, respectively), but have taken on a life of their own and propagated as facts online... I even heard Luke Rudkowski make this assertion in a recent interview with David Icke... and, of course, Joe Rogan has said it a few times...