MAOI overpowering/suppressing DMT

[maranello551]

Am I seriously the only one that experiences this?:

Less than full-maoi dose = weak short experience
Full-maoi dose = strong long experience
Over full-maoi dose = weak long experience


It's like the dmt can't power such a harmala heavy experince for me.......

Like the maoi is a hose and the dmt is the water.

If the hose is too small, it will limit the water flow out
If the hose is proportional to the water flow, a strong water "beam" will come out
If the hose is too wide, the standard water flow will just dribble out.

Like the maoi is a wheel and the dmt is someone pushing the wheel

If the wheel is too small, the experience won't be very complex or deep
If the wheel is proportional to the force of the person pushing, it will be a good experience
If the wheel is too large, the person will not have enough strength to power such a large thing


Do heavy harmala doses not overpower dmt for anyone else?

 

[2headsARE1]

.

 

[maranello551]

Unfortunately, I don't have any experience with low MAOI doses. My first few changa experiments were very heavy on the MAOI, and I took it and ran with it. In my opinion, it does not take away from the experience, but it does alter it dramatically in a good way. It can be too much if you try to do it more than 1 session/hour.

When I first tried the changa, I found an opposing duality between the DMT, and the MAOI. Some experiences were fantastic, others were rather mild, and you could feel it was either spot on, or swayed to one side. For me, inhalation technique, and temperature control will get you to the sweet spot.

Sorry, I was referring to oral ROA......depending on smoking material to verify these kinds of claimsis difficult since the experience can be altered by differences in burning temperatures, how long one holds the hits, how large of hits one takes, etc.

 

[2headsARE1]

.

 

[Jees]

...Do heavy harmala doses not overpower dmt for anyone else?

While harmalas make dmt survive in the body, they certainly are no potentiators of the dmt-effect in itself. They take some of the dmt effect away as if they are competition for dmt on the receptors side.

Pharmahuasca, Anahuasca and Vinho da Jurema:
Human Pharmacology of Oral DMT Plus Harmine
JONATHAN OTT
Published in Yearbook for Ethnomedicine 1997/98
Page 8:

...It would thus appear that the locus of the ayahuasca effect is peripheral and that
the MAO-inhibitors which catalyze oral activity of DMT may exert a sort of DMT
blocking effect in the brain. While MAOI can render DMT and other tryptamines
orally-active, they appear to render it far less potent than when administered via
other routes; serving as activators, but not potentiators. We have seen that longterm,
daily administration of medicinal MAO-inhibitors (which theoretically
elevates brain-serotonine levels) can partially or completely block the effects of
both DMT and LSD. This has been documented experimentally and also in
surveys of patients undergoing daily MAOI-therapy...

Your findings are in line with this. Mine as well.
If I want a max dmt-ish pharma session, I'd tune down on the harmala side but still enough to inhibit mao.

 

[dragonrider]

Yeah, i have experienced this as well. But at the same time, harmala's realy do add something to the DMT experience. I find that i'm emotionally more open on harmala's. Wich is the main reason why i hardly ever take shrooms without caapi.

Shrooms offer a good illustration of this effect, because they obviously are orally active without any MAOI. Shrooms with a small amount of caapi or passionflower are realy a nicer experience imo. Much more emotional, more euphoric, warmer.

I think it's the serotonergic effect of harmala's, that diminishes the effects of DMT. Downregulation of serotonergic receptors is one of the main effects of all of the classic hallucinogens.
The fact that harmala's elevate the levels of dopamine in the brain are probably responsible for the euphoric effects.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I've taken Harmalas and DMT very regularly before my break, and i never noticed a reduction in DMT's effects, nor in the Harmala's effects. And i've never noticed the Harmalas overpowering the DMT, the more Harmalas i've used the less DMT i've always needed and the more Aya-like the experience has been. There's different kinds of experiences one can have with this stuff, depending on the dosages used. MAO-A inhibition does not reduce the effects of DMT or Psilocin ime, it just alters it.

 

[maranello551]

Just curious, what specific dose ranges are you taking when it hits the sweet spot? Do you take them both at the same time, or space them out?

SWIM used to always drink the maoi 20-30 minutes before the light, but now he is experimenting with drinking the combined tea.....works well either way. The separation may be a tad more efficient in terms of "wasting light", but imho, mimosa-rue is rather cheap and so compensating by using more starting material is a small price to pay for the convenience of having a single drink and not have to worry about brew spacing both initially, and mid-experience for redosing....

I personally an a bit of an outlier it seems when it comes to dosing......I would say my "sweet spot" for dosage is 3-4g of rue to every 20g of mimosa.......I will drink 2-3 cups throughout the experience.....each with that much in there (if combined.)

I recommend spacing out first, and getting used to that. Unlike mushrooms (you get what you dose), oral dmt seems like something that needs be summoned by the mind, and for some reason, drinking the two parts separately makes the experience more mushroom-like in that it doesn't as much come in multiple waves, but rather one longer experience. It also seems easier to "summon" this way, for some reason.

3g rue tea and 20 minutes 20g mimosa tea WILL be felt - if brewed decently.

 

[obliguhl]

Yes, the harmalas dull out the DMT effects to a degree, making them less apparent and less colorful. At the same time, DMT allows the harmalas to become more visible. One does not drink both together to have a DMT trip, but to allow for a good harmala experience.

It is a common misconception.

 

[Jees]

...3g rue tea and 20 minutes 20g mimosa tea WILL be felt - if brewed decently.

20 grams is a bad general info because it's far and way too much for most people.

I suspect you don't like to ingest 400 mg dmt on a good maoi. This leads me thinking a lot of your mimosa did not really ended in the brew (not decently brewed after all), and/or wood is low potency.

Forgive me to point this out, before some newb's simply copycats and gets into far too deep waters. I would also like to ask you maranello551 why you think you need 20 gr mimosa (an impressive pile of 400 mg dmt) to be effective for you?

Thank you

 

[Sabnock1990]

I agree Jees, i've heard some rough numbers for dosages from a few people which if things were properly active/potent no one should need nearly that much. I myself usually don't go over 8 grams of good Mimosa or Acacia root.

 

[maranello551]

...3g rue tea and 20 minutes 20g mimosa tea WILL be felt - if brewed decently.

20 grams is a bad general info because it's far and way too much for most people.

I suspect you don't like to ingest 400 mg dmt on a good maoi. This leads me thinking a lot of your mimosa did not really ended in the brew (not decently brewed after all), and/or wood is low potency.

Forgive me to point this out, before some newb's simply copycats and gets into far too deep waters. I would also like to ask you maranello551 why you think you need 20 gr mimosa (an impressive pile of 400 mg dmt) to be effective for you?

Thank you

It's good bark (dozens of different sources) and the brewing technique is quite refined (many methods tried)

.....this has been replicated with extracted light as well. I don't /need/ that much.....I /like/ where these doses place me (most of the time.)

Also, I would not be so cavalier as to recommend such doses to someone for whom lesser dosages have worked. Some may simply have a body chemistry such that dmt doesn't affect them as efficiently, or they may simply want to go deeper than the places smaller doses would place them......

I would say 20g mimosa doesn't really push SWIM deeper than 8-10g of dried mushrooms do.

 

[maranello551]

no one should need nearly that much.

Based on?

 

[Sabnock1990]

Based on the dosage recommendations online, as well as personal experience. No one needs over 10 grams, imo.

If 20 grams of Mimosa doesn't push you further than 8 to 10 grams of Shrooms, then yeah somethings wrong. Ime Mimosa seems to be as potent as Shrooms, and i've never had to go over 8 grams of Mimosa, and it's been waaaaaaaay more intense than Shrooms or 4-ACO-DMT so far.

I think you may need to work out the timing between the Harmalas and the DMT, at least for me i'd much rather get the timing right and have a full dose of Mimosa or Acacia without needing to use so much, rather than combining them and having to use more Mimosa or Acacia.

 

[maranello551]

Based on the dosage recommendations online, as well as personal experience. No one needs over 10 grams, imo.

If 20 grams of Mimosa doesn't push you further than 8 to 10 grams of Shrooms, then yeah somethings wrong. Ime Mimosa seems to be as potent as Shrooms, and i've never had to go over 8 grams of Mimosa, and it's been waaaaaaaay more intense than Shrooms or 4-ACO-DMT so far.

I think you may need to work out the timing between the Harmalas and the DMT, at least for me i'd much rather get the timing right and have a full dose of Mimosa or Acacia without needing to use so much, rather than combining them and having to use more Mimosa or Acacia.

Shoot....I've tried every timing strategy and multiple vendors.....must have sub-average sensitivity to n,n dmt....

 

[Jees]

I remember starting out on pharmas 200+ mg deems. I thought to have a sweet spot. Things changed and now I rarely go 100+ and usually go 75. It looks like sensitivity changed. These things complicate talking about dosing. My last 100 mg pharma was actually a bit dull because the digestion system was spreading things out, it took 3 hours and some food to get it going. If same amount pharma gets assimilated in a normal speed then I sure would have been rolling on the ground.

For non-extracted wood brews, I've never exceeded 7.5 grams of powdered mimo and there certainly was no need for more. Shredded or powdered might seriously impact the needed amount of wood, this in combo with the cooking method used.

There are several variables playing at same time. :?

 

[melotikaci]

I remember starting out on pharmas 200+ mg deems. I thought to have a sweet spot. Things changed and now I rarely go 100+ and usually go 75. It looks like sensitivity changed.

Can this be caused by reverse tolerance? I've read somewhere harmalas have one.

Shoot....I've tried every timing strategy and multiple vendors.....must have sub-average sensitivity to n,n dmt....

Have you tried taking extracted harmalas/dmt?

 

[Jees]

I remember starting out on pharmas 200+ mg deems. I thought to have a sweet spot. Things changed and now I rarely go 100+ and usually go 75. It looks like sensitivity changed.

Can this be caused by reverse tolerance? I've read somewhere harmalas have one...

Potentially yes. And also knowing where to go you need less to get there, like you need less "hint". For example I had a modest 40 mg pharma lately and I could switch in and out of a hyperspace feel (no breaktrough) on my very own command, I was actually playing with it. I am quite sure that in my beginning days that would have been not possible and needing more of a butt kick to know where to be.

 

[Danko]

Hi all,

This is the most interesting topic I've ever seen here in years.

Proof ot is very complicated for these reasons:

- the source of harmalas, brew, extractions,mall can alter
- also for mimo, the grinding, brew, acid cold brew, extraction

With husband we have done pharma for years:
- he became very sensitive to harmalas, and even 100mg was enough.
- for me it went totally the other way, I had to increase harmalas to 300mg and more.
Same product, administration but totally different dosages.

MHRB

I do cold extract whit phosphoric acid as per Jees.
I never needed more than 3g of the cold brew for the break through.

I do microdosing of pharma with the same products mentioned above, 3xweek,mand strong 2xmonth, and never seen a problem.

When I do FASA I have more of vaping experience, that doesn't do the body mind connection, one more dmt seems to be very different then more harmalas.

Even though I have been working for years with pharma the same way, I feel that the ratio of the two components is still mysterious for me.

And for mushrooms, thank you for the imput. This is the missing part. I think that harmalas if in higher doses, do the body mind connection, which is what is all about.

And lastly, when in hyperspce I have a question:
- can you open your eyes more then few seconds?
- can you move in the bed,nor get to toilet or stand up ?

When harmalas are high I can't do either, when low, and high dmt I can stand up.

I also wonder if the break through on high harmalas vs high dmt are the same?

 

[tregar]

Tend to agree with shamensStamen as never experienced this attenuation with admixture leaf, but then again swim always dreamed caapi only, and not isolated harmalas. As much as I love Jonathan Ott's writings and have many of his books, have to remember that all of his experiments posted in Ayahuasca analogues were done with the harmalas and not caapi. Even Shulgin's self reported less than stellar reports with dmt in the harmaline section of TIHKAL were done with harmalas only with no tetrahydroharmine.

Erowid Online Books : "TIHKAL" - #13 HARMALINE

Entry #13 HARMALINE from TiHKAL by Alexander & Ann Shulgin.

erowid.org

See Shulgin's report with 150 mg harmaline, 35 mg DMT, where he reports on lack of redeeming qualities for example. His report may have changed had he used caapi.

While this theoretical attenuation of the effects of admixture leaf may happen with large doses of the RIMA's harmine or harmaline only, it's quite possible the opposite theoretical effect happens or at least a steady state is achieved in relation to admixture strength when used with caapi which contains tetrahydroharmine as it's second largest alkaloid.

Many here have even isolated thh in the experimental group work session of this forum, so perhaps they could report their findings.

From Elrik here at this forum for example:

I've gone though the process once to produce isolated harmine and THH and, **** almighty, do these critters change the experience over that of the usual harmaline/harmine mix salted out of rue tea.

Erowid Ayahuasca Vault : Scientific Investigation of Ayahuasca, McKenna, Callaway, Grob 1998

A journal article overview of science done on ayahausca

erowid.org

From Dr. Callaway:

The primary action of ß-carbolines in the ayahuasca beverage is their inhibition of peripheral MAO, which protects the DMT in the brew from peripheral degradation and thus renders it orally active. There is some evidence, however, that tetrahydroharmine (THH), the second most abundant ß-carboline in the beverage, acts as a weak 5-HT uptake inhibitor and MAOI. Thus, THH may prolong the half-life of DMT by blocking its intraneuronal uptake, and hence, its inactivation by MAO, localized in mitochondria within the neuron. On the other hand, THH may block serotonin uptake into the neuron, resulting in higher levels of 5HT in the synaptic cleft; this 5-HT, in turn, may attenuate the subjective effects of orally ingested DMT by competing with it at post-synaptic receptor sites (Callaway, et al., 1997).

Would suggest switching to (the more expensive & traditional) caapi if attenuation of admixture is not wanted at higher levels. I am of the first opinion that thh does prolong the half-life of the admixture leaf...there is most definately no lessing of the effects with very high doses of caapi, had experiences of such strength with good psychotria that all could do was sit there with eyes closed for the 1st 90 minutes and not move an inch or else hundreds of new cev's would result, just hoped for the strength to go down a few notches after the 1st 90 minutes so could reach a moderate level that was not so very strong, which it would...never wanted to repeat dream anything like that again, way too strong and visual strength was just way too far out there (tip only dream 15g or less of hawaiian psychotria).

As well, "the more caapi the better" like Bancopuma once wrote, caapi provides the basis for some very far out visions at slightly higher levels (1/2 dose caapi + 1 full dose caapi a few hours later for example.) The visions you read about in "antipodes of the mind" for example easily result from larger doses of caapi.

From Gayle Highpine:

Listening to the Vine

While I was living in the village, someone began the process of shamanic apprenticeship. There was a series of ceremonies with brews of special strength for that purpose; brews with enormous quantities of vine. About two to three pounds of fresh vine per person was used (about 25 to 35 times the amount needed for MAOI inhibition). Those were powerful experiences indeed.

Although the apprenticeship began with crushingly vine-heavy brews, the more the apprentice progressed, the weaker the brew he would need. He would learn to see the dimmest of visions. If he spent a full two years “fasting,” then eventually even smelling or tasting the brew, even touching an Ayahuasca plant, would be enough to visit her realms. On the other hand, he would learn to navigate the strongest of brews with clear focus, and be undistracted by any amount of DMT fireworks.