Mapping thresholds on N,N-DMT

[hewwo]

Hello,

We're working on gathering physiological and subjective experiences related information when it comes to N,N-DMT experiences. I think that, despite the felt uniqueness of the said experience a system, with its own limits and scope could be useful for some when it comes to integration and understanding. Here's an infographic for the ones curious about it :




EDIT

PS: Please don’t mind the visuals for now; focus on the idea of mapping and on the information presented here. To my knowledge, there are several things we can consider as axioms, or at least as working premises, so we can discuss them:
- There are both differences and similarities in the experiences induced by psychedelics and N,N-DMT.
- These similarities, and this is particularly interesting, also extend to entity encounters.
- Current scientific literature still fails to fully explain these encounters, although it has produced a few interesting observations: they are not usual hallucinations or visuals as commonly understood, and they are subjectively experienced by the brain as real encounters. Sometimes, they can also trigger mystical experiences.
- These encounters seem to fit a few archetypes that remain remarkably similar across cultures. Here too, current literature fails to explain why. Grof’s perinatal theories could be relevant.
- A map has limits, but it can still be useful. Please take it for what it is: no more, no less.
- The visual here is a temporary proposal. I am working on a series of several pieces offering an accessible overview of the current knowledge base on psychedelics and party drugs, so that people can engage with the information more easily. This is still a work in progress.
- This work is based on the Bayesian brain theories, therefore it carries its limits and scope.
remove duplicate requirements list

 

[Panpsychic]

Hello,

We're working on gathering physiological and subjective experiences related information when it comes to N,N-DMT experiences. I think that, despite the felt uniqueness of the said experience a system, with its own limits and scope could be useful for some when it comes to integration and understanding. Here's an infographic for the ones curious about it :




EDIT

PS: Please don’t mind the visuals for now; focus on the idea of mapping and on the information presented here. To my knowledge, there are several things we can consider as axioms, or at least as working premises, so we can discuss them:
- There are both differences and similarities in the experiences induced by psychedelics and N,N-DMT.
- These similarities, and this is particularly interesting, also extend to entity encounters.
- Current scientific literature still fails to fully explain these encounters, although it has produced a few interesting observations: they are not usual hallucinations or visuals as commonly understood, and they are subjectively experienced by the brain as real encounters. Sometimes, they can also trigger mystical experiences.
- These encounters seem to fit a few archetypes that remain remarkably similar across cultures. Here too, current literature fails to explain why. Grof’s perinatal theories could be relevant.
- A map has limits, but it can still be useful. Please take it for what it is: no more, no less.
- The visual here is a temporary proposal. I am working on a series of several pieces offering an accessible overview of the current knowledge base on psychedelics and party drugs, so that people can engage with the information more easily. This is still a work in progress.
- This work is based on the Bayesian brain theories, therefore it carries its limits and scope.
remove duplicate requirements list

Its always interesting to see attempts at phenomenological mapping of the experiences, it remind me of some of the work I have seen by the guys at QRI

Qualia Research Institute

The Qualia Research Institute is discovering the mathematical structure of conscious experience.

qri.org

While I appreciate such attempts at garnering the field more academic 'respectability' I cant help but feel it is a limited approach, to attempt to translate what is beyond conjecture into workable or even testable conjectures.

If it resonates with some and they find such frameworks appealing and useful though then great. You are right to mention Grof - his framework alongside that of Chis Bache who built significantly upon it, remains the most comprehensive and useful in my opinion, interestingly both developed them extensively through working with LSD.

I summarised it in this thread discussing the broader metaphysical annd experiential implications of psychedelics and of 5-MeO-DMT.

I previously mentioned Chris Bache and a video of him talking about 5-MeO. He presents a similar framework although based on his experiences with meditation combined with high dose LSD sessions over a 20 year period which I will put here just as its the one I use as a map. What I Iike about it is it has emerged from his experiences although no doubt he draws on psychological and spiritual perspectives to inform it.

His description of the layers here is timestamped along with the below brief breakdown of it assisted with AI.

View attachment 103754


1. Personal mind

The personal biographic layer, personality structure, and the domain of traditional psychotherapy.

Spiritual process: The personal self must be purified and for the next levels to unfold in an integrated way and to awaken their full potential.

Movement: Letting go of personal identity.


2. Collective Consciousness - Humanity’s Psyche

The psychological field of all of humanity—past, present, and future. This includes shared trauma (e.g., war, ecological collapse) and shared potential (positive societal changes, awakening to higher consciousness and ethics).

Spiritual process: To open the heart and soul to interconnectedness, and to be reborn into service.

Movement: Dissolving separation between self and humanity.


3. Archetypal Realm — Divine Cosmic Patterns

The mythic, symbolic, and spiritual architecture that governs human experience—deities, sacred geometry, divine principles, karmic structures and the souls cosmic curriculum. Not merely metaphorical but actual realities.


Spiritual process: To see how soul and cosmos are structured, to align with divine purpose

Movement: Living aligned with archetypal patterns and meaning


4. Causal Oneness — Universal Divine Intelligence

The vast, impersonal, all-knowing consciousness that dreams the universe into being. This is God as creative intelligence, the ordering principle of all existence.

Spiritual process: To realize your soul is part of an infinite intelligence. You are not separate—you are a wave in God’s knowing.

Movement: Merging with the Mind of God.

5. Diamond Luminosity — The Clear Light Field of Ultimate Reality

The pure, nondual, infinite field of awareness. This is not a being—not even “God” in a conventional sense—but the Absolute, the radiant field that simply is.
Total dissolution into radiant clarity, infinite stillness, and perfect presence. No self, no time, no division. Only being.

Spiritual process: The end of the self, the end of seeking. To know God not as an idea but as reality itself.

Movement: ?


Interestingly although he outlines this framework he also states that there is:

∞ - The Beyond the Beyond — Endless Unfolding Infinities

"There is no final level. Beyond every summit, there is another summit. The Diamond Light is not the end. The journey never ends.”
—Chris Bache, LSD and the Mind of the Universe


What he terms the highest stage of the 'Diamond Luminosity' which he had been working toward for years and seems broadly to be the same domain as the nondual whiteout, even this he says he had one of his last experiences on acid where he had managed to go far into the Diamond Luminosity, and suddenly a beam of light shot out and struck him that shattered his consciousness from a whole other dimension of again a greater order of being. That was when he realized the process was essentially infinite, eternal and unlimited and never ever ended.

In other words 'God' or Absolute Consciousness is progressing through its own journey which never ends of ever greater and more sublime states of ever unfolding Infinities, and this process goes on for Eternity because there is no longer any limiting factor.


In terms of the distinction into the different stages regardless of how many we delineate, what is striking is that he entered all the different stages with his practice and LSD over a gradual period.
Certainly than, while the substance is the platform it is possible to traverse the different stages both without substances (very difficult and requires huge amounts of practice), or combining meditation with the substances (requires practice but much less than without the substance).


If as you say 5-MeO grants direct access to the causal level or perhaps the Diamond Luminosity or Clear Light level, this would be again potentially a top down pathway, my concerns would be however if 5-MeO could lead to a spritual bypassing effect if it solely geared toward the clear light level. Unless perhaps lower doses can be done to work at the lower levels, however these other levels are maybe best worked through with different substances such as shrooms or acid.


Harmala+DMT in this framework I think occupies a good middle ground. I have had experiences with it on all levels excluding the clear light level, but predominantly what he calls the archetypal and causal oneness levels and there is long enough to work with it (if drinking harmalas then smoking you have a good 40 mins to work with and can repeat).

 

[hewwo]

Thanks a lot for your feedback, really appreciated. The Qualia research institute is super interesting !

And yes you're totally right. A framework, or a map, is always mapping itself to some extent. However I do think this can be useful to start and understand and it could help someone when it comes to the integration part. I am also working on similar infographics showing the neurology of different molecules. I hope it'll help reducing the friction between users and information.