Martial arts?

[Parshvik Chintan]

i am no energetic master (far from it - i question [not doubt] it's existence) but it has been my experience that the rules of sport-fighting can be far too restrictive, and as such i take no part in it. you spend your time training your instinctual reaction, and when you step in the ring, you have to suppress much of it (unless you train as according to the rules of sport-fighting) and be overly-mindful of your technique, which can be very distracting.

at least in my experience.

though, admittedly i do not know if any this would apply to energetic systems.....

humorous video, though.

 

[ewok]

it has been my experience that the rules of sport-fighting can be far too restrictive, and as such i take no part in it. you spend your time training your instinctual reaction, and when you step in the ring, you have to suppress much of it (unless you train as according to the rules of sport-fighting) and be overly-mindful of your technique,

humorous video, though.

For years the Gracies fought with no rules to prove there system they had an open challenge to anyone of any style. Time and time again they proved themselves in real comabt.

One of the reasons I got into gracie/brazilian jiu jitsu was the fact its a proven system.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

ewok and Shroomtroll

I don't really care to get into a debate about internal vs. external arts, and the benefits of MMA vs. traditional arts in actual combat. I also don't need to back up any of my claims as they are nothing new. You can read thousands of such reports, and in documents as recent as today and as old as written history.

For young people with limited time and an interest in "testing" themselves in combat, I am sure MMA, Krav Maga, external Kenpo and all the other "meathead" arts will suffice. Of course, the heavyweight masters I know don't fight... and would never beat up some poor MMA saps just to attract unwanted attention to their arts. It is considered a failure on the part of any practitioner if he even has to check someone... let alone hurt, maim or kill them.

What I will say is that MMA techniques are designed to win in an MMA fight. Real martial arts are designed to kill people in a matter of seconds. There is no emphasis on grappling for the most part because the fight is over before anyone can "shoot" or do some other martially ridiculous move that in "real life" often ends with them dead. The martial techniques we learned involve plunging your fingers 2 knuckles deep into someone's eye, collapsing their windpipe and completely crushing their upper vertebrae... all in the blink of an eye.

This doesn't make for good TV. MMA is like a sports reality TV show. Believe that your heroes are masters if you like, but most of them have under 10 years experience... which in my lineage is not even enough to be called a beginner. When my martial arts buddies happen to flip past some lunks in an octagon playing warrior... we laugh hysterically. Anyone that can sit on someone's chest raining blows on the face of someone whose head has nowhere to go but into the ground... and not cave in their entire skull, is either pretending... or impossibly weak. It takes less pounds of pressure per square inch to cave an eye socket than it does to break 2 oak boards... I could break 4 when I was 8.

In the second grade I hit someone once in the face and they had to go to the hospital... and this was before I learned any serious Kung Fu.

My opinion as a 40+ year veteran of many styles of martial arts (with trophies in actual competitions) is that MMA is just the evolution of the old WWF with less comedy and more real fighting. The fact that people are not dying every day shows something is wrong. People get hurt as bad as they do in MMA in most dojo's just sparring. Even in boxing, people die in the ring.

Sorry to burst your bubble kids, but don't go trying your MMA on a mugger with a knife. As someone who has disarmed a machete wielding maniac in Honduras without hurting him... I know a little something about actual self defense.

And this is not even getting into the real stuff... CHI.

If you have never experienced Chi, it only makes sense to doubt it. I will not attempt to convince you of its existence other than to say that if it didn't exist and work, this would be impossible. detroitstreetpress.com

In case you think this is unsubstantiated, read the second article on this pdf (from the NIH). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1729344/pdf/v083p00256.pdf

Even the International Journal of Cardiology study shows that using acupuncture (in their case alongside some narcotics) was highly effective and superior to normal anesthesia. Abstract and link to Study

Chi skeptics have generally simply never even tried to research the issue... or are belligerent about things they don't understand. IMHO

 

[endlessness]

So what about movies and documentaries depicting martial arts, anybody has recommendations?

Do the bjjers out there watch instructionals ? If so, which ones you like the most?

 

[Rising Spirit]

I am on board with HF 100%, true Qigong Masters do not fight in public displays. There is simply no way Brock Lesnar is going to square off with an advanced internal Grand-master, in a gladiatorial event. I am inclined to believe that MMA is indeed a beastly business, despite the science to the fighting principles and the fusion of traditional systems they stem from. Gone are the days when genuine cats like Joyce Gracie introduced BJJ to the world of professional fighting events.

The majority of those guys use steroids and/or growth hormones to radically enhance their physical prowess. I feel that there is so much more to martial arts and internal cultivation, than violence and destruction. The most powerful people I've ever met, are also the gentlest and most tolerant folks I've encountered, thus far.

And Besides, the video showing a charlatan getting his ass stomped, is hardly proof one way or the other. I could tell he was a fake after 2 seconds of his flamboyant magic act. And frankly, I kinda believe he deserved to get pounded for taking himself so seriously and believing his own hype.

One of my Sifus, who weighs just 129 pounds, can fling me about like a rag doll and until recently, I weighed over 200 pounds. While I am certainly nothing special, five+ years ago, I could bench press 305 pounds, squat 415 and dead-lift 485 (at the ripe ole age of 49), while still being able to run a marathon and remaining limber enough to practice hatha yoga.

Again, I'm really nothing special at all... but I am not a push-over either. Yet, Sifu finds my center in seconds, neutralizes anything I try and could kill me in any number of ways, were he so inclined. Thankfully for myself, he is a peaceful soul with a deep and introspective mind. Like myself, he abhors violence and avoids any serious conflicts. Still, if pushed to the wall he would be a deadly opponent to cross.

He professes no special skills and often relates how effortlessly his teachers could handle any kind of martial conflict. He a wealth of knowledge and has studied with such Grand Masters as T.T. Liang, B.P. Chan, William Chen and He Jimbao. He refers to himself as merely, "the water boy on the team". Interestingly enough, he is also a long-time psychonaut, now well into his sixties (and incidentally, he was the first person to turn me on to smoking vaporized NN-DMT).

But I agree, talk is cheap and especially on internet forums, it's all just conceptual gymnastics. So, it means nothing if I support the traditional over contemporary expressions of human combat, as we are comparing apples to oranges. I think I'll stay out of the MMA VS Qi Master debate, as it is wholly inconclusive and is unfruitful to pursue.

 

[Rising Spirit]

Hey folks,

I am curious how many of you do weapons training? I know, it seem an irony for those of us inclined towards spiritual attunement to be fascinated with sharp implements of violence... but they are also quite like musical instruments, if used with a peaceful heart. In my world, they are a means to express internal balance and equanimity.

I've long been a practitioner of staff, sword and saber. My specialty is jianfa (swordsmanship). The jian is the Chinese double-edged straight sword. For myself it is moving meditation and is most profound to experience with an empty mind and a focused degree of intent. These are a couple of quite lovely sword forms.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

I love weapons training. I don't see it as martial (who carries around medieval weaponry?), and if you want a weapon to kill people with... guns are sold in sporting good stores in the US.

I practice the Tai Chi sword, the Broadsword, the Kuan Do (a really nice workout), various staves and spears, Deer Horn Knives (one of my favorites), and a number of odd oversized weapons designed to train you up REAL good.

I also practice a number of ranged weapons... darts, throwing knives, archery, hatchet throwing, and still do some shiruken tossing from my younger days.

I find that using an external object with your form work helps you to learn to extend chi. When the weapon becomes an extension of your body, you are animating it with your chi. This translates easily into the first steps of projecting chi. When you grasp an opponent's arm, your can take possession of it in the way you do a sword or spear. It is quite a shock to someone when their arm becomes an extension of your intent. Heheheh.

 

[Rising Spirit]

I love weapons training. I find that using an external object with your form work helps you to learn to extend chi. When the weapon becomes an extension of your body, you are animating it with your chi. This translates easily into the first steps of projecting chi.

Absolutely! It's an exercise of intent and as you so eloquently state, an extension of our body's internal energy. I also value practical applications, sparring and cutting practice. To move freely from one's central core is both thrilling and highly effective.

But we surely ought NOT handle sharp swords, when experiencing entheogens of any sort. Some areas of study require a clear, modicum of sobriety. There is a time and a place for everything, most naturally. 8)

 

[teotenakeltje]

I have a black belt in judo. I practiced it for about 10 years, started when I was 9.

It never was a spiritual thing for me, my interest in spirituality and psychedelics came later.

I kind of overdid it, my trainer recognized my potential, so I did a lot of tournaments in lots of countries. I will never forget the rush of adrenaline you get facing your opponent, and the refery screaming: HADJIME!!!

I also went to the olympics for minors, that was in Denmark. That was pretty cool. I found out that all those french athletes were smoking spliffs and boozing at night Needless to say that I didn't bring back a medal...

One day, training in Holland, I made a careless move and I hurt my lower back and pelvis. After visiting the doc it turned out that I have a pelvic obliquity, partially caused by years of heavy training sessions.

I quit judo, not cause of the injury, but because I was fed up with it. Traing 3 or 4 times a week just didn't fit in my party life style anymore.

And my trainer was a cop. I found it so embarrassing when he came and say hello when I was in some bar with my buddies.

Now years later, I would like to start again, take a more meditative and spiritual approach to it, but sadly my pelvis just makes it impossible.

 

[ewok]

So what about movies and documentaries depicting martial arts, anybody has recommendations?

Do the bjjers out there watch instructionals ? If so, which ones you like the most?

Choke is a good documentary so is Renzo Gracie legacy. I don't watch to many instructionals now but found both Damien Mia and Saulo Riberio's series very good. I've been lucky enough to train with some very high level guys and nothing beats learning in person directly as they correct mistakes quick add information were needed etc. instructionals have there place but I've found some people develope bad habits frim not understanding what they are watching.

 

[SHroomtroll]

I just dont see the point in making claims that you know that you cant prove, you dont really need to dog mma to make your kung fu sound better really.


I respect all martial arts but i dont think we need to talk crap about any art here, mma is so far the best proving ground we have for hand to hand fighting, obviously we cant do groin shots and eye pokes in a sport but really why would we want that?

Mma is a sport like you say but its the closest thing we have to real fighting in a controlled envoirment, and the reason noone has died in the ufc is because they train this stuff every single day, they are not bum fights.



And i dont think any secret chi stuff is gonna make a world class trained proffesional fighter flinch tbh, if you have seen this sure good for you, but you cant think anyone who has trained for awhile will beleive it.



But please lets just leave this and talk about the good things about ther arts, external or internal.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Shroomtroll... no one can prove anything that they say on this site. People say all kind so things here that sound fantastic to outsiders. People who have never done DMT come here all the time to laugh about the ludicrous things we say here.

You must realize this.

So here we have an area where you think I am out to lunch... but you and I have had enough exchanges that I think you know I am neither crazy, nor some kind of glory hound. I simply share my experiences and opinions like anyone else here. My experiences might be considerably more difficult to swallow than some, but that is just how it is. I don't find posting a link to any document to be proof... though at least I did post some links that show rather skeptical and conservative agencies embracing what was once considered far out woo... that acupuncturists using chi CAN perform open heart surgery without anesthesia while the patient is wide awake. Once you accept that, it is only a bit further down that road to the kinds of things I am talking about.

You seem to like MMA and feel defensive about your sport of choice. Fine. I will refrain from poking fun at it. But you must realize that what they do in those matches is NOT fighting. If you think it is, you will be quite devastated in actual combat, which has no rules and is generally over in a matter of seconds.

I know a lot of people who love MMA and are like Joe Rogan... enjoy their training and enjoy watching the matches. I just can't watch them. They make me laugh. If you can explain how someone sitting on a man's chest and pounding his face into the mat over and over with gravity and their full weight behind, them does not result in collapsed eye-sockets, shattered noses, and broken cheekbones at the very least... I am all ears. These kinds of injuries are common when hitting people who are standing up. When someone is on the ground and can not move their head with the blow, people die. That is the reality. It is not about being trained.

Are you suggesting that MMA artists have all developed secret Iron Skull techniques? The only other thing I can think of is that they purposefully hold back, and just give love taps in those instances (as was common in WWF).

I know of people who have mastered some Iron Shirt Chi Kung and are very impervious to harm... You can easily find some videos of Shaolin masters placing iron bars to their necks and bending them without breaking the skin, jumping on top of razor blades and the like. Some of the YouTube stuff might be faked, no idea... but I have seen this stuff live and been able to test the blades and rebarb used.

You think my claims are hard to swallow? I think the entire farce of Ultimate Fighting and all the other spin off reality shows needs some serious "substantiating" if any real martial artist is supposed to take it seriously. Sweaty guys wrestling on the ground with a few strikes is not the pinnacle of unarmed combat by any stretch... if it was wouldn't the special ops and green berets be training in it?

I said before I didn't really want to debate this. But I also am not the type to shy away from a debate. If you want to question me and my subjective tales, that is fine. If you feel like you can insinuate that I am making things up to bolster my arts or my ego... then you should expect that I will respond to such allegations.

No hard feelings ST, as I tend to rather like you and your posts. But I submit that you have no idea what I am talking about, and should refrain from judging things you don't understand.

 

[endlessness]

If such miraculous masters like to demonstrate with silly things such as bending iron bars and posting on youtube (what would be the use of this, maybe have them work in construction ? ), why don't they go all the way and prove themselves against the best fighters out there ? Seems iffy if you ask me. Either you don't demonstrate at all because you dont care for it, or you go all the way and really show the use of your skills. But to do these half assed demonstration for believers sounds like the typical snake oil business.

Now whether Chi exists, or whether there are some real masters that can indeed do the 'one-blow-death-touch', that's another story, and up to each one to believe or not. Personally I have never seen it, and till I do (and ask a bunch of questions afterwards), I'm most certainly not gonna just believe it to exist because someone else said it does or because of some crappy youtube video. If you did see it and know beyond reasonable doubt there was no 'catch' to the demonstration, and if you feel you can use it for your own purposes good for you, so you can relax and just know it exists.


Personally Im not a fan of MMA, but in any case, I think you are wrong there HF, because frequently those guys have their bones broken or some even become paraplegic or die. Also, the fact that they train every day for many years, plus they are full of adrenaline (which does make you more resistant), plus the fact that the blows are most often not direct hits but get softened the gloves (in the case those are used), or the person getting the hit moves away from the hit etc, it makes sense why most stay alive.

Now back to my own mere mortal martial arts, Im about to go training in a couple of hours Ewok, I know what you mean with practice being better than any video but I feel the videos can be an extra. There were a few sweeps I learned from saulo for example that seem to work very well for me, and then when I try them in training, if there is something wrong with it my instructor can correct me.

Oh yeah, choke is awesome, and im just watching renzo gracie's docu, also pretty good

 

[ewok]

HF I find it pertty hypocritical you suggest mma must be fake and that the thousands of people competing in mma around the world are faking it, all the while making outrageous claims that cannot be proven and are not widely seen or practiced at all.

I have fought mma before and trust me its not love taps at all one can simply not generate rhe same punching power on the ground as they can standing that's been proven on fight science before. As for the injuries they do happen but anyway fighter's learn to protect themselves to minimise damage.

I asked if you were serious and turns out you are, but one thing I've found is people usually only run down others styles when they don't have true fairh in there own.

 

[Ufostrahlen]

Sorry pals, but Shaolin Gong Fu is the real deal. Forget all you masters, gurus, styles, traditions and whatnot. :!:

Steven Chow made a song about it, so you can all learn:
[YOUTUBE]

 

[boogerz]

Freestyle & Greco-Roman wrestling is pretty awesome :thumb_up:

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

What is outrageous is that you guys think someone who is pinned and can barely move is able to deflect blows somehow by moving his head a bit from side to side. Heads should be exploding like ripe melons... or else these supposedly well trained fighters are weak as little girls. I know I would have no problem doing a 5 point strike in that position that would leave anyone dead. (fingetips, knuckles, fist, forearm, elbow in one smooth motion)

No patty cake crap. One strike... Dead.

Whatever you think... I don't care. I know a former Ultimate Fight Championship competitor who lost his big match, but he was relatively highly ranked... and anyone in my school could have made mince meat of him. He freely admits this. Grappling and choking people out is not combat. It is wrestling.

Point to a single elite military in the world that uses BJJ or MMA techniques and I might think a little kinder. But as I know Krav Maga and Kenpo are far more sought out by people who actually need to kill people.

As for the guys on youtube... they are not masters, but rather young touring Shaolin monks who go around doing demonstrations to raise money for their monasteries. (but even these youngsters are incredible to watch)

I have touched the implements these guys use and they are sharp enough to cut your finger with minimal pressure.

That said, you won't see any real masters on youtube. Who knows... perhaps some private home footage of a real master has made its way online by now, but they are surely not out to prove anything.

Just imagine... if you were a superhuman master, what on earth would you want with demonstrating this to the hoi polloi? All it could do is make your life a living hell. They know what they can do.

Adrenaline as a rationale for not having your eye-sockets caved in? Seriously? Not able to generate force when you are sitting on someone and they have no where to go? And you call these people masters? Give me a break... I guess I am done on this thread. Watch your TV shows and think that the Gracies are the greatest martial artists to ever live. Heheheh.

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

Last thing...

Even IF your pumped up sport dudes were the end all be all fighters of the world... That is not what these arts are about anyway.

Self-defense and combat are merely the tiniest part of what these arts are about. As much as a real Kung Fu master could wipe the floor with the sporty hulks of TV MMA... their real achievements are in the fields of meditation, altered states, and spiritual enlightenment.

I suppose MMA guys can achieve cosmic consciousness and astral project on command? Are those guys able to turn insubstantial or weightless? Are they master healers? Can they handle entities as well?

It makes no sense and seems rather disrespectful to talk about some guys who go to the gym a few hours 4 days a week in the same breath as we talk about people who live Kung FU 24/7. This guy is not even a master, but a lot of people are convinced his jing powers are the real deal. While it may be that all the people in this video are paid off to help him pull of a great scam... it seems unlikely, as this guy was rebuked by his masters for showing off and has since disappeared, and not stuck around to cash in. NeiKung - amazing demonstration of Chi

 

[Parshvik Chintan]

i always found this video intriguing

 

[ewok]

HF didn't you bring Mma into the equation? If I'm not mistaken your the one who are comparing them and speaking of them together.