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MDMA alternatives (for entheogenic group celebration)

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ohayoco

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The one thing missing in our entheogenic parlour here is a good entheogen for social celebration.
I would love to hear people's thoughts on what we could be taking to get us dancing for god like the early Israelites :lol:

To avoid crossing into the realms of self-destructive hedonism (which would be off-topic for the forum) here are the criteria for assessing candidates:

1. SPIRITUAL EUPHORIA
2. PURITY
3. HEALTH

1. SPIRITUAL EUPHORIA
You have to be a nice person on it. Not a wasted ahole.
-For example, MDMA would count because it is empathetic, but cocaine would not because it makes many people act selfishly.

2. PURITY
The entheogen must be pure. It can either be extracted or synthesised safely by an amateur kitchen chemist, or it is legal so can be bought pure from a legitimate company such as with research chemicals. Anything that must be bought illegally from a dealer is therefore out, because there could be anything in there and without knowing what's in there, it would be nion impossible to purify the product.
-For example, mephedrone is in the running based on this criteria, but MDMA is out of the equation.

3. HEALTH
It mustn't damage us. This area is a grey one because some may consider certain damage acceptable, so please just state the case for your candidate in detail if you are accepting a trade-off. If a candidate is an RC, please explain what we know about it so far.
-For example, mescaline would qualify with regards to its healthiness because it has a long history of use backed by scientific data. MDMA does not qualify because many people suffer almost week-long comedowns, which certainly isn't psychologically healthy even if the jury's still out about its effects on physical health.

And obviously, it has to make you want to party like it's 1999! :d Looking forward to hearing your thoughts!
 
(P.s.: if this thread is not considered appropriate for the Nexus, I apologise, but if it does get closed like that "Dolly?!" one, please could a mod first suggest what other forum/forums would be able to provide responsible information on such things? I've shied away from party drug forums so far because I feel like people who like meth, crack and skag have incompatible attitudes to my own and wouldn't be as thorough on their assessments of health risks. The Nexus are generally a health-mided bunch, which is one of the reasons why I like it here so much. Also I am a bit mescalitoed so I am rambling, shipment from Peru came today! :lol: )
 
Lets see how this develops :)

SWIM isnt into all the chemicals, except acid, so he cant help you there.. But he can say that he thinks mostly all psychedelics in low-medium doses can be positive for group celebrations. Acid is very commonly used in certain festivals and so on.

But when we start talking about big social events, there is a certain character of unpredictability and an accumulation of stimulus, and this is maybe not the best context for all of those taking the substances. If there is a safe outdoor natural surrounding where one can go to and relax, and at least the majority of people are well intended and creating a good atmosphere, then it can work.

Once the doses increase, though, it becomes harder and harder to function as a party goer, and one needs a safe place to just be.

Small groups in cosy home setting can also be great, sometimes a mixture of a more recreational setting, but also more serious and in a way ritualized because people taking have respect and conscience about what they are doing.
 
Thanks Endlessness. Unfortunately acid is out because it doesn't satisfy criteria 2 (purity), because you have to buy it from a dealer and there are so many reports of fake acid, and most people can't make it at home. You know, these days, if I were a dealer (which I'm not), I would just buy RCs and sell people those or at least cut with them (which I wouldn't do because that's dishonest and dangerous). But I bet that happens all the time.

Of the classic psychs, I think mescaline is the only runner. I'm not sure if the body load means it comes anywhere near MDMA though (well, SWIM's been eating cactus rather than extracted mescaline, so maybe mescaline wouldn't feel so heavy). Definitely the potential for freakout is problematic for the other classic entheos when you're talking large groups of strangers.

I understand that 2C-B was an MDMA alternative, yet a psychedelic. But it's illegal now so off the menu. I'm hearing a lot of talk of mephedrone these days, which is what inspired this thread, so I'm interested to hear thoughts on that... someone could buy big batches of such RCs and keep them in the freezer for a decade in case they turn out to be safe, thus securing a pure supply for once they are made illegal 😉
 
good idea ohayoco..I have been intereste in mephedrone as well sinse reading of it on the forum..but still unsure of what it even does..like is it addictive at all? I would like to try it one day.
I have had lots of friends who abused coke and dirtys "mdma" pills alot, but I never went down that road even once..well I have had some pure MDMA that a very trusted freind of chemist gave me that was beautiful..but I only rolled like 3 times in a 2 yr period and then stopped.I saw what it did to people, and one friend I had who basically gave up mushroms for e pills and coke and it scared me.

I still have yet to try kava kava or kratom as well, but I think they are more sedating, no?
I was at a psy party a few months ago outdoors and they were serving lotus teas and herbal extacy containing theobromine and some other herbs. I have tried lotus and it made me completely exhauseted so that's out..the herbal extracy 2 freinds of mine tried and they said they really like it..but that may just be something only available locally, and the shop that sold it in town shut down for the moment so they really only sell at events now.

I like mesc though..have fun with him btw:wink:
 
Mephedrone:

Erowid 4-Methylmethcathinone (Mephedrone, 4-MMC) Vault

Information about 4-Methylmethcathinone (Mephedrone) including basics, effects, dosage, history, legal status, photos, research, media coverage, and links to other resources.
www.erowid.org
The fiending side to it is worrying, and people overdoing it and turning blue, but having never tried it I don't know how strong this fiending drive is, although SWIM can imagine based on how cocaine turns the whole night into a series of trips to the toilet for another line (bleugh). But this stuff can be bombed instead if you want to save your nostrils. It's been made illegal in Sweden now after a death, but I don't know what happened there. It's related to the stuff in khat, but an RC. More on Erowid.
I'm not sure if I want to try it, because much as SWIM loved MDMA he is still a little heartbroken that he can't feel like that again. He doesn't want to have to go through that again. MDMA was heaven on earth... during the high. Hence why I started this thread, to get people's thoughts on these alternatives, in case there's a better one out there, an ultimate social entheogen. SWIM is happy with mescalito but he would like to get into dancing again if there was something suitable out there.
I'm waiting for Acolon_5 to see this in particular, I bet he's tried it and could give some good tips on others... it would have to be really worth it to get SWIM taking an RC. I know Infinite I likes it, hopefully he'll find this thread...

Kava kava is not a party drug. Expect to loll on the sofa with a friend or two for a nice chat in a dreamy state. It's mild.

Kratom is what I would term a party drug. Personally I think its junk, there is no spiritual depth there for me. I was just running round like every other idiot, talking too much and not really listening to what others were saying, and the whole night would go far too quickly. I call that kind of thing a selfish high, and inane, so I don't class it as an entheogen. It's also physically addictive, and I would never consider dabbling with an addictive substance unless the effects were really something else.

Yes mescalito is lovely, SWIM must get on with an extraction! :)
 
Swim has had good times with mephedrone alone, but its too like cocaine by itsself, even when you swallow it you still want more. Very fiendish just like cocaine. Mixed with methylone is great. The methylone gives you the mdma type effects and the mephedrone gives you the speediness, great synergy but methylone is far better by itsself. Swims not that into it now, seems to be the first few times are amazing then it loses its magic big time. Last time swim and his g/f took it was such a dissapointment and re-dosing small amounts was a total waste, honestly swim wouldnt get too excited about it. Get some and mix it with methylone and a great night will be had ala mdma but by itsself its nothing great just like coke/mdma high mixed, great for sex mind you! lol He will buy it again though just to have handy for certain social occasions, i.e people that arent into proper entheogens.

LSH could be a good alternative to mdma as swim ahs had very similar effects in the past, its always kind of hit and miss though.
 
A small dose of mescalin resembles XTC a lot.
Threshold doses of ayahuasca will do as well, but this might be difficult to dose. I think that the caapi vine is responsible for these effects so trying pure caapi could be worthwile.
Caapi at least has been proven to improve health.

Chemical aternatives are BZP (benzylpiperaline), methylone and MBDB.
The last two are real MDxx's so they might be as risky for your health as MDMA.

I've been told that small doses (real small doses) of ibogaine could do as well, but i have no experience with this.

GHB, wich is illegal in most countries, could be used for the same purpose as MDMA. It is illegal because of it's use as rape-drug and dangers of overdose, especially in combination with alcohol. It is very addictive as well. But besides these obvious risks, it is as far as i know not harmfull. If used with moderacy and not combined with other substances, it has no mental or physical risks. The times i used it, i found it quite pleasant.
 
Thanks all. Those alternatives don't sound too special unfortunately, lots of nonplussed customers on Erowid, the general consensus seems to be that they lack the ecstatic wow factor of MDMA. Not much point in my eyes taking something relatively new like GHB if it's only 'quite pleasant'!

Might just try mixing mescaline with ephedra tea, but that won't enhance the music much. How about microdoses of extracted mescaline and caapi together? Might have to avoid stimulants like ephedrine if using caapi though, and booze too... problematic for social situations. SWIM'll start experiments.
 
very low doses of sublingual 5meoDMT might do it..I really enjoy smoking really low doses of it in musical situations, it's very euphoric for me. Sublingual would be better though..I remember 69 ron saying he even enjoys going shopping on sublingual 5meo..
 
for a party - chilled but energetic one - next time u got a load of ppl over peeling cactus or whatever - whip out the khat, beanbags/pillows, spicy chai, hookah(hubbly) and bong.
If everyone can handle stimulants ... then later perhaps some mesc - depending on how long u want the party to last.
BHO can be saved for the very end.
 
:( I just realized khat is illegal here in canada..is it legal in the US?..people actaully traffic it here..must be the real deal if its scheduled..
 
Most of the khat available in western countries is of inferiour quality. This has to do with transportation. The product degrades incredibly fast. Only real fresh khat is of good quality. That's why for real good khat, i'm afraid, you'l have to go to yemen.
 
I think that, basically, combinations with caapi would work best.
What set's XTC apart from other psychedelic's is it's serotonergic effect. If you want to have an alternative for XTC, it should increase serotonin levels effectively. Caapi does this, but instead of harming serotonin receptor's (what XTC does) it strengthens serotonin synapses. I think caapi with high doses of theobromin, kola-nut, guarana, maté or strong coffee might be effective.

The suggestion of caapi and low doses of mescalin sounds realy good to me. Peyote is more euphoric than san-pedro, thus better suited for this purpose.
San-pedro innitialy leads to a sort of hazyness, while peyote gives a cleaner high at low doses.
Low doses of peyote would be the best alternative for XTC.
 
polytrip said:
I think that, basically, combinations with caapi would work best.
What set's XTC apart from other psychedelic's is it's serotonergic effect. If you want to have an alternative for XTC, it should increase serotonin levels effectively. Caapi does this, but instead of harming serotonin receptor's (what XTC does) it strengthens serotonin synapses.
Click to expand...


Interesting, Do you know if this occurs when caapi is mixed with dmt?
The reason i ask is beacause for the past two times that SWIM has drunk caapi and smoked some changa, he has had the most beutiful time.
At first he feels the usual uncomfortable body load, but after a while this beautiful blissful (seretonin like) feeling starts to creep through his body. It is defo on of his faves at the minute, and has wondered why this happenes as the two seperate componenets do not have this effect if taken seperatley.
He tried the same thing with 30mg of sublingul THH and it just didnt feel as loving as the caapi tea!
 
soulman said:
At first he feels the usual uncomfortable body load, but after a while this beautiful blissful (seretonin like) feeling starts to creep through his body. It is defo on of his faves at the minute, and has wondered why this happenes as the two seperate componenets do not have this effect if taken seperatley.
He tried the same thing with 30mg of sublingul THH and it just didnt feel as loving as the caapi tea!
Click to expand...

Caapi is essentially a mix of THH and harmine. These two alkaloids amplify and alter each other's effects to a great degree when taken together, producing effects neither one is capable of on their own.
 
69ron said:
soulman said:
At first he feels the usual uncomfortable body load, but after a while this beautiful blissful (seretonin like) feeling starts to creep through his body. It is defo on of his faves at the minute, and has wondered why this happenes as the two seperate componenets do not have this effect if taken seperatley.
He tried the same thing with 30mg of sublingul THH and it just didnt feel as loving as the caapi tea!
Click to expand...

Caapi is essentially a mix of THH and harmine. These two alkaloids amplify and alter each other's effects to a great degree when taken together, producing effects neither one is capable of on their own.
Click to expand...
Caapi does have some XTC-like effects. But it is much more subtle. As far as i know it only boosts serotonergic activity, while XTC also increases dopamine and noradreneline levels. I think besides mescalin (peyote, peyote also contains other xtc-like substances as well), caapi would be a very good alternative.
 
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