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Mescaline Tartrate solubility?

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69ron

69ron

Rising Star
I was reading some stuff on-line about mescaline and ran across this statement:
Mescaline tartarate is sparingly soluble in water so is easily recovered from the solution at room temperature.
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So, if that’s right (and I'm interpreting that correctly), mescaline tartrate is like mescaline sulfate in that it can be crystallized directly from water. That sounds pretty cool. But is that information reliable? Has anyone here played around with mescaline tartrate? Does it actually crystallize from water?
 
No one knows?

What about the solubility of mescaline fumarate? Can mescaline fumarate be crystallized from water like mescaline sulfate can?
 
Cool. The next time SWIM uses mescaline (which should be very soon) he’s going to go for mescaline fumarate. He’s hoping that it can be crystallized directly in water.

Mescaline salts are normally pretty poorly soluble in water, and according to what I’ve read on the net, even mescaline citrate will crystallize from water. (However, SWIM tried to crystallize mescaline citrate and couldn’t get it to crystallize.)

Citric acid is a hydroscopic acid, so I imagine that fumaric acid, being a non-hygroscopic acid could probably be crystallized directly from water as well, and probably much more easily. It should also have a very long shelf life. Fumaric acid is one of SWIM’s favorite acids.

SWIM doesn’t like using hydrochloric acid at all. It’s smells and can easily corrode lots of stuff in the house. It’s also almost impossible to get food grade hydrochloric acid.

Sulfuric acid is even worse. SWIM won’t allow it in the house.
 
Dagger said:
Tried phosphoric acid? It is used in coca cola.
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Phos acid has a rather high bp- something around about 200c if I remember right. If a solid phosphate salt is possible it would involve fiddly titration, like sulphate salts, rather than crude and easy evaporation like HCL.
 
How would someone go about using tartaric acid? Just dissolve into water?

Does anyone have a rough idea about the type of measurements?
 
I think I recall a few folks on these boards attempting to salt mesc out using fumaric acid with unsatisfactory results, resulting in an inactive, probably mostly fumaric acid product.
 
Noob said:
Noob said:
How would someone go about using tartaric acid? Just dissolve into water?

Does anyone have a rough idea about the type of measurements?
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69ron? Anyone??
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en.wikipedia.org

Tartaric acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
it's very soluble in water
133 g/100ml (20°C)


mescaline itself is an overall nonpolar molecule, associating it with a tartrate anion will somewhat increase it's solubility in RT water. it could probably be collected in cold water
 
Noob said:
Noob said:
How would someone go about using tartaric acid? Just dissolve into water?

Does anyone have a rough idea about the type of measurements?
Click to expand...


69ron? Anyone??
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Tartaric acid is extremely water soluble. Here’s some data on tartaric acid.

Molecular Weight: 150.09 g/mole
pKa: pKa1 = 2.98; pKa2 = 4.34
Melting Point: 168°C (334.4°F) - 172 C
Soluble in glycerol
Soluble in water @ 0 C (115 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 10 C (126 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 20 C (139 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 30 C (156 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 40 C (176 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 50 C (195 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 60 C (217 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 70 C (244 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 80 C (273 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 90 C (307 g/100 ml)
Soluble in water @ 100 C (343 g/100 ml)
Soluble in methanol (58.82 g/100 ml = 1 g/1.7 ml)
Soluble in ethanol (33.33 g/100 ml = 1 g/3 ml)
Soluble in propanol (9.52 g/100 ml = 1 g/10.5 ml)
Soluble in ether (0.4 g/100 ml = 1 g/250 ml)
Insoluble in chloroform

I assume that it should be able to form salts with mescaline having two molecules of mescaline and one molecule of tartaric acid.

Mescaline molecular weight: 211.25758 g/mole
Tartaric acid molecular weight: 150.09 g/mole

Mescaline tartrate’s molecular weight should be something like 573 (211 + 211 + 150).

Because mescaline weighs 1.4 times as much as tartaric acid, and you’d need half as many tartaric acid molecules to make mescaline tartrate, you would divide the number of mg of mescaline by 2.8 and that would be how much tartaric acid you would need to make mescaline tartrate (that is if the assumption of two molecules to one tartaric acid molecule is correct).
 
Thanks, guys.


benzyme said:
en.wikipedia.org

Tartaric acid - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
it's very soluble in water
133 g/100ml (20°C)
Click to expand...


This is interesting; from Ron's post: "Soluble in water @ 100 C (343 g/100 ml)"

So it does seem to be less soluble in colder water, maybe it could be cold precipitated out of plain water after all.


69ron said:
Mescaline tartrate’s molecular weight should be something like 573 (211 + 211 + 150).
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LOL well that makes me wonder if it's even worth it, but I guess just 2x the material to work with. If it would end up crystalline and powdery and precipitate in cold water then it might be worth it anyway
 
So for 100g cactus you'd use about 350mg of tartaric acid dissolved in water to salt? How much water though? Or should you just mix the tartaric acid in hot water(heated up distilled water) until it reaches a certain ph?

Please help me out here folks, I am terrible at chem
 
Yo just go for what you think, if anything goes wrong, the tartaric acid saturated water won't pull anything and the goodies will stay in the d-limo. Try saturating the water and then pulling, then either evaping or freezing.
 
I'd be very interested to contribute to the findings, I will do some experimenting for my next extraction. Evaporaing vinegar is no fun, and having nice, pure crystal shards would be a godsend for dosing / accurate yield measurement.

However, what's with the school of thought that different salts have different potency outside of the weight difference of the salt?

All mescaline salts will disassociate into the same exact cation in water, not to mention the HCl in your stomach is stronger than anything but... well HCl lol.
 
SuperRad said:
However, what's with the school of thought that different salts have different potency outside of the weight difference of the salt?

All mescaline salts will disassociate into the same exact cation in water, not to mention the HCl in your stomach is stronger than anything but... well HCl lol.
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This is a proven fact. There's nothing to dispute here. The reason the FDA requires that all different salt forms of a drug be tested separately and approved separately is because they all are absorbed at different rates by the body and therefore have a different effects profile because of it. This applies to all drugs. If it wasn’t so, smoked freebase DMT would have the same effect as snorted DMT and it doesn’t. Rate of absorption can vastly change a drugs effect and potency. Different salt forms have different rates of absorption.

Don’t make the mistake of assuming that all drugs form HCl salts after passing through the stomach. This is not true. Many drugs are actually absorbed before they reach the stomach acid. And sometimes pass through the stomach so fast that there is little time for them to form the HCl salt, and in some cases forming an HCl salt is just not possible.
 
SuperRad said:
All mescaline salts will disassociate into the same exact cation in water, not to mention the HCl in your stomach is stronger than anything but... well HCl lol.
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This doesn’t matter. It still behaves as a salt even if disassociated, and which salt it is effects its absorption rate. This has been proven over and over in many pharmaceutical tests and also applies to mescaline. If you put mescaline HCl in water, it absorbs more slowly orally than mescaline acetate in water. This is a fact and you can easily test it out. It doesn’t matter that it passes through the stomach acid. If some chemistry whiz can explain why this is, I would love to know. I don’t understand it. But I do know that this is a proven fact and why all different salt forms of drugs require separate approval by the FDA.
 
69ron said:
I was reading some stuff on-line about mescaline and ran across this statement:
Mescaline tartarate is sparingly soluble in water so is easily recovered from the solution at room temperature.
Click to expand...

So, if that’s right (and I'm interpreting that correctly), mescaline tartrate is like mescaline sulfate in that it can be crystallized directly from water. That sounds pretty cool. But is that information reliable? Has anyone here played around with mescaline tartrate? Does it actually crystallize from water?
Click to expand...


That was me, the write up with that quote is somewhere in the mescaline extraction thread here on the Nexus. I googled Mescaline Tartrate Fable and found it.
Check post 3 at this link
The Mescaline Extraction Thread - Preparation - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus
Anyway I have some interesting information regarding crystallisation of the tartrate salt from solution.
An A/B extraction was performed on some standard Pachanoi, the organic phase was removed to a flask and an equal volume of a saturated tartaric acid solution was added. The flask was shaken vigorously a number of times over the next 30 min. Crystals started precipitating out of solution while still warm, the flask was refrigerated overnight and even more precipitate had formed when checked in the morning.
This looks to be a much cleaner method than evaporating the organic phase first and reacting the resultant oil with a hot tartaric acid soln. The crystals were a nice white colour and a good size, there is what looks to be about a tea spoons worth in there I just need to get the organic layer off before trying to recover the crystals.
The only problem with something so insoluble is the absorbtion time when taken orally, a test monkey observed that the effects were more like ecstacy than Mesc, being a lot less full on.
I read somewhere that tartaric acid is diprotic and had not taken this into account in my initial calculations. More research would be needed before I can comment on any alterations that need to be made to the % yeild.
I suppose that it would be possible to react the mescaline tartrate with another acid to get an easily soluble salt, say HCL at pH 3 which wouldn't be too acidic that you couldn't consume it orally. The pH of you stomach can get lower than this.
Anyway its something to think about.
 
Having a form of mescaline that takes longer to absorb is not a bad thing for some people. It should definitely lesson the nausea problem some people get from mescaline.

Mescaline acetate absorbs faster than mescaline HCl. If you want something that absorbs fast, use that form.

Does the water need to be saturated with fumaric acid [EDIT: that's supposed to say "tartaric acid", not "fumaric acid"] in order to get mescaline tartrate to precipitate out?
 
The solution was reasonably saturated with tartaric acid, I didn't use boiling water, just nice and hot and threw in a tsp gave it a stir for 30 seconds let it settle and pour off the top. Its easy.
I once tried anhydrous acetone/hcl and it was an absolute failure, the tartrate is so much easier to work with and get a reasonable yield from.
 
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