MHRB to saltform

[uwo]

Hi everyone, i'm happy to be here, for freebase i'm using the atb salt tek and its working like a charm but i have a question about the salt form. Help wanted!!

Fumaric acid is a problem to get so i was wondering if this idea will work?

What will happen if i do this? Will i get usable salt?

When i take 100g MHRB powder and mix it with 300ml acidified vinegar water (ph 3-4) and shake it each day for a week and then filter it. Keep the liquid apart and do the same to the powder again for a week.....then put the 2 liquids together.....

Warm the liquids and add 30g salt..... til its dissolved ..... then put it in a oven dish and put it in the freezer....after a day i take it out and discard the liquid and take the salt whats on the glass.....after that i redissolve it in a salt solution and put it in a freezer again two times..... Will i get usable salt?

Best regards and thanx for reading....

 

[DreaMTripper]

No the salt form of dmt-acetate would be in the water it wouldnt precipitate.
What you can do is soak bark in vinegar water pH 4 then freeze then thaw gradually to extract from the cells into the water.
Then leave soaking for a week it should dissolve all the alkaloid salts but you wouls probably need 2l for every 100g. Agitated regularly.
After you can reduce to 1l in a saucepan then proceed with cybs salt tek but instead of freeze precip the solvent you 'back salt' then reduce the water by heat until its a thick goo..
For oral dosing maybe add cookie dough or something as a nice tasting filler/dryer and make spheres then freeze them to preserve.

 

[uwo]

Hello Dreamtripper, thanx for your reply, Why is it that this method will work with for example Syrian Rue seeds to get the salt out of it and not with mhrb powder?
What i am trying to do is making a capsule with syrian rue (i did this with this method and hope it worked) and make a capsule with dmt salt.... i was hoping the same method will work but i understand it doesn't.....

What will happen if i do as mentioned and let it dry in an oven? it cant be in the water then ?

 

[cyb]

Perhaps what you need to do is make dmt fumerate (as Opposed to dmt freebase)
Then it will become orally active in the capsule.

Some, however, do cap the freebase and take it after a suitable time has passed for the Maoi (rue) to inhibit.

 

[uwo]

Hello Cyb, thanx for replying .... I would like to make fumerate but its a problem to get fumaric acid so i'm looking for another method to get the salt into the capsule:grin:

What i dont understand is why this method is recommended in the dmt handbook (for extracting syrian rue seeds) and it wil not work for mhrb powder?

I won’t go into the Syrian Rue extraction here, but I will recommend this technique:
Erowid Online Books : "Ayahuasca: alkaloids, plants, and analogs" by Keeper of the Trout

So is this the good method to get the salt out of the syrian rue? or is there a better method?
Why will it not work with mhrb? Or what do i have to do differently to get it in the capsule in (preferable) salt form

Thanx for taking the time (I'm a learning project in progress :d )

 

[DreaMTripper]

Simply because the alkaloids in mhrb/acrb dont precipitate in a manske method.
All other dmt salt forms apart from fumarates will be very hard to put in a cap.

 

[3rdI]

Hello uwo,

Just capsulate your freebase, it will be fine.

I just mix my Magic and harmalas together and put them in the same capsule.

It does this :surprised :shock: :shock: :want:

Good luck:thumb_up:

 

[uwo]

Thanx dreamtripper i didn't know that... So the best thing i can do is using the Manske method on the syrian rue seeds and put about 100 to 150mg in one capsule......take it about 45 minutes before taking the dmt capsule?

3rdI thanx for your reply, putting freebase in a capsule works fine? How much should i put in capsule 2? and what will be the difference between dmt freebase or dmt salt form in the capsule?

Thanx again you guys .... I'm sorry for the many questions but i want to do it as right as possible

The big question is there a substitute for fumaric acid? The acetone isn't a problem but it impossible to get fumaric acid over here......

 

[3rdI]

you don't need fumeric acid, just capsulate your freebase and pop it.

I take my Magic/harmalas at the same time mixed together in a couple of 00 caps, it works very well.

If you wanted you could drop a capsule with just harmalas 10 mins before the capsule with magic/harmalas in it but I don't find it necessary.

The difference between salt/freebase is that a salt will be more easily digested as it doesn't need converting in the stomach like freebase does. Your dosage is gonna be down to personal preference, the range varies massively, just do some searching on dosage and you will find all the info you need and then start low

 

[uwo]

Ok thanx 3rdI i will give it i try, i'm only not sure about the quantities yet..... but i'm thinking of 100mg of syrian rue salt in capsule 1...... and 10 minutes later capsule 2 with 50mg syrian rue salt and 150mg dmt freebase....... i hope that the numbers will be allright but i will let you know.....

Just curious..... is there a different way without fumaric acid to turn freebase into salt?
i have acetone and hydrochloric (<10%) acid? is there a way?

Thanx again....

 

[pitubo]

Salting the DMT is done to make it soluble in water. You can add a weighed amount of freebase and dissolve that into citrus juice or (adequately sour) orange juice. The citric acid will salt the freebase DMT and make it soluble.

If you put the freebase DMT in a capsule, the gastric acid in your stomach will salt and dissolve the DMT. A little bit of freebase DMT will not be caustic enough to cause stomach discomfort.

One of the reasons why the fumarate salt of DMT is often preferred is because it is not hygroscopic, unlike the acetate and hydrochloride salts. A hygroscopic salt attracts water, making weighing it harder (due to stickiness) and less precise (due to unknown water content).

So, if lacking fumaric acid, you can simply weigh freebase DMT and either put it as is in a capsule and swallow or dissolve in acidic solution and drink that.

With harmala alkaloids, it is essentially the same story, but for the fact that the most commonly used salt is the hydrochloride, which is not hygroscopic and easy to prepare with the precipitation with NaCl per Manske.

I would add the DMT and harmalas together when consuming, both in a capsule and in a solution. Waiting 45 minutes in between proved less effective for me. It may be more appropriate when ingesting whole rue seeds.

As for the starting dosage, I advise to make capsules or solutions containing 100 mg of harmalas and 25mg of DMT. Then ingest one dose per hour, until the effects are up to expectations.

Once a sufficient and effective dose has been established, it can at the next session be taken at once or with incremental steps at an interval of 15 minutes to an hour. Taken at once, the trip is a bit shorter but with a more intense peak, while spreading out the dosing also spreads out the peak and the intensity.

 

[downwardsfromzero]

If you're wanting an alternative to fumarate, why not put ascorbic acid - vitamin C - powder in the capsule with your freebase? Or any other solid acid (food grade, of course!), e.g. tartaric, malic, succinic. Tartaric acid should be available from wine-making suppliers.

Better not to use the hydrochloric, and acetone is not an acid (not in the everyday sense, anyhow).

 

[pitubo]

but i'm thinking of 100mg of syrian rue salt in capsule 1...... and 10 minutes later capsule 2 with 50mg syrian rue salt and 150mg dmt freebase....... i hope that the numbers will be allright but i will let you know.....

150 mg DMT may be overdoing it a bit. Imagine smoking 150 mg DMT and having the effects last 4 hours...

This amount of DMT is only necessary if you get the MAO inhibition with harmala alkaloids wrong or if you have an unusual metabolism of either harmalas or DMT. I would start by not assuming either.

Just curious..... is there a different way without fumaric acid to turn freebase into salt?
i have acetone and hydrochloric (<10%) acid? is there a way?

Read what I wrote above, acetone is not needed, and hydrochloric acid is in your stomach. Vinegar and any acidic fruit juice is good enough too.

 

[uwo]

Thankyou,thankyou,thankyou......pitubo and downwardsfromzero..... i'm slowly starting to understand.....

I will make capsules like 100mg syrian rue salt and 25mg freebase dmt.... i will fill the rest of capsule with ascorbic acid powder..... and i will take one each hour till i reach the outerspace effect.....so i will know my dose for the future...... Brilliant tip i didn't thought of.......

Just for learning purpose...... if i dissolve a little bit of ascorbic (vitamine c) powder in alcohol or aceton?........ and i dissolve a little bit of freebase in alcohol or aceton?......and put it together and evaporate the alcohol....... do i have dmt salt then?

Thanx again for all the knowledge guys......:thumb_up:

 

[pitubo]

Every hour is just to be on the safe side. You can take another dose every 30 minutes, but it takes about 30 minutes to kick in, so you might go one further than comfortable. On the other hand, if you really need 100 mg or more, the first dose would be waning off by the time you start to get "there".

If you want to make a salt, you don't need acetone. Water will do fine if you first dissolve the proper amount of ascorbic acid and then add the molar equivalent of DMT freebase and let it react with the dissolved acid. When all is dissolved, simply let the water evaporate and what remains is DMT ascorbate, plus any surplus of either DMT or ascorbic acid (hence the need to add equimolar amounts.)

The reason why acetone is used to make DMT fumarate, is that both DMT and fumaric acid are soluble in pure, anhydrous acetone, but the DMT fumarate salt is not. When an acetone solution of DMT is mixed with an acetone solution of fumaric acid, the DMT fumarate salt forms and starts to crystallize out of the acetone solution and can be filtered off and washed with clean acetone. The surplus of either DMT or fumaric acid stays dissolved in the acetone. This way, you don't need to add precise molar equivalents of DMT and fumaric acid. With the water method above, you do.

 

[uwo]

Thanx pitubo for your explanation, i'm getting wiser every-time.... i'm wondering if for example i need 100mg dmt with the intervals of 45-60 minutes..... is it necessary that in all 4 capsules is 100mg of Syrian rue salt? That isn't a problem?

The salt making; i dont understand what equimolar is? sorry what amount of water?ascorbic powder and freebase dmt? is it possible for example to do this with 95%bio-ethanol to speed up the vaporation? Or is this a bad idea?

Thanx for your time again.....

 

[pitubo]

For full MAO inhibition, it takes at least 150mg of harmala alkaloids. If you take more, it can add a little to the intensity and duration of the experience. If you take less, some of the DMT might get broken down by the MAO enzymes in your body and the experience will be much less intense and shorter in duration. You could probably get away with putting 50 mg of harmalas in the second and following doses, but I would not put less than 100 mg in the first dose.

A mole in chemistry means a specific amount of molecules. A mole of DMT contains exactly the same amount of DMT molecules as a mole of acetic acid contains molecules of acetic acid. A gram of DMT would contain less molecules than a gram of acetic acid, as a molecule of DMT weighs more than a molecule of acetic acid. This is basic chemistry knowledge, look it up a little on wikipedia.

Using bio-ethanol is IMHO a bad idea, as it is likely to contain denaturants that will pollute your product. Unless you are able to distill it before use, don't use it. If you have to use ethanol, get medical grade ethanol or other consumable ethanol.

 

[uwo]

Thanx pitubo..... ok if i make 4 capsules.... the first 100mg Syrian rue salt/25mg dmt salt
and the other 3 .... 50/25mg it should be alright? Maybe i don't need the 3th or 4th but that would be the experiment..... the dmt is about 4 hours active..... how long is the mao inhibition active?

Thanx for the wiki.... i believe i understand but please correct me if i'm wrong....
I looked up the numbers on wiki and used a formula from the dmt handbook....

In the handbook they come up with 0.31 times the weight of dmt and they advice 0,4 to ensure that no unconverted freebase remains.....but this is for fumaric acid.....

So i came up with (ascorbic) 0.46775 times the weight of dmt... 0,5 times then should be right? Is there a minimum or maximum of used water involved?

First i make the acid/water 0.5g ascobic acid/water?....then dissolve 1g dmt in it.... cook most of the liquid out..... and for good drying i put it in an oven dish in the oven? lowest on my oven is 100 degrees Celsius

I'm hoping to think in the right direction

 

[pitubo]

The numbers for the capsules sound good enough to try.

It's actually the harmalas that are active 4 hours I think. I've never tried, but I guess that adding more harmala only after say, 2 hours into the trip will prolong the effects of DMT. That is just speculation though, feel free to experiment when you have worked out the first steps.

With the molar calculations, don't bother too much if you are not familiar with the matter. Just put freebase in a capsule and your stomach will salt it just fine I think. Or put it in some acidic drink.

There are many little complications with the calculations, like fumaric acid is a divalent acid, one molecule of fumaric acid can bind two molecules of DMT; ascorbic acid is monovalent; citric acid is trivalent. Acetic and hydrocloric acids typically come as a solution in water that is formulated as a volume percentage, not as molarity. Some solid substances can have water of hydration bound to its molecules, sometimes in varying amounts, which increases the molar weight. Lots of rules, lots of exceptions and many many calculations. I encourage you to learn about all of this, but make it a different project. For now, simply do with the freebase.

 

[uwo]

Hi Pitubo, ok it looks difficult indeed... i rest my case hahhaha but only one question remaning.....

Example.... 100mg dmt freebase..... ph is high i believe 12.5 or higher......
ascorbic acid is 2.3 ph i believe...... ph neutral is 7.0

if i put 100mg dmt in a capsule with approx 115 to 120mg ascorbic acid..... will it dissolve nearly ph neutral (6.94 ph) in my stomach?

Thanx again.....