Mimosa Tenuiflora vs Acacia Confusa dosage in ayahuasca anaog brew

[Corax]

Hello,

ACRB and MHRB and their differences have been widely covered in many threads and a search on the internet give a lot of results, but I didn't find any answer to the following specific question from people having experienced both in depth in ayahuasca analog brews.

My usual dose for syrian rue+mimosa brew (ayahuasca like) is PH 7g MHRB 11-12g (please reader be advised that this syrian rue quantity is considered extreme if not dangerous by several people, see this thread for details), how should I dose the acacia confusa root bark to get equivalent dose ?
That is : from a subjective experience perspective, not by calculating the average DMT percentages in each plant.

I did found a lot of information on the subjective comparison of ACRB and MHRB but not on the respective dosage. My first intention was to go with the same amount in weight (and I'm going to brew it right now) but as it will be my first try with ACRB (compared to 50+ with MHRB) any information about the dosage will be welcome.

About the context : I'm about to prepare a pure syrian rue+ACRB brew (with a few added usual plants in small quantities for my usual superstitious drill) to try to get a grasp of acacia specifities in a brew, my goal being - if ACRB experience is positive - to mix ACRB with MHRB in future brews.

Thanks in advance, and apologies if the precise answer is somewhere I couldn't find.

 

[TGO]

Ah, the equivalent dosage you say? Well, that can be a bit tricky! I have read (and done it myself) about people using as low as 5g ACRB + 3g rue and having a decent time. I found that my personal batch must have been weak or poorly brewed because 5g was barely threshold.

So the next time I bumped the dose up to 15g ACRB + 3g rue! This was more of a sweet spot for me. My girlfriend drank it with me (we both did 15g) and she claims that it was rather intense for her. I was put into a dream state. I lay on my bed for hours, eyes closed, not asleep but I felt very far away while strange faces and visions would pop up in my mind but pass very quickly. Some faster than others. That went on for nearly 3.5 hours!

Anywho, getting the dosage right with ACRB is a bit of a challenge due to the mixed and varied alkaloid ratios of DMT, NMT, and other trace substances.

GC-MS

Results: Both Acacia confusa stem and rootbark contain mainly DMT and NMT as the alkaloids, plus other traces of substances.

Full results description:
In the GC-MS system we're using, both NMT and DMT are co-chromatographing, so its hard to give relative quantities because part of the peak curves are overlapping. In any case, with both stem and rootbark, it seems to be around 50/50% of NMT/DMT in both of them (or lets say, due to uncertainties of peak, anywhere between 30/70 to 70/30%). The profile of both stem and rootbark seemed pretty similar, there were only small differences. They both had a few other small peaks (>1%). They both had very small amounts of 2MTHBC (which might be analysis artifacts? This is still an ongoing doubt we are discussing in this thread), plus a few peaks of other substances such as plant sugars and fatty acids, which were a bit different in stem vs bark but both were only trace/very small amounts. What could potentially be different in stem vs bark is the overal quantity of NMT and DMT, but i did not do them in equal dilutions (due to lack of enough plant material) so I cannot really do quantitative comparison between stem vs bark. They both also nearly undetectable trace amounts of Skatole, check this thread for more info

I would start low and build your way up until you find your sweet spot. Perhaps brew a couple doses in case one isn't doing it.

Best of luck!

-The Grateful One-

 

[Corax]

Thanks a lot the Grateful One,

that's the kind of answer I was looking for.
Anyway, soup is cooking right now, I decided to go with 7g rue and 10g acacia per drink (35g total peganum and 50g total acacia for 5 drinks) instead of my planned 13g (with mimosa I'm around 12 to 15g per drink).

I never brew a single or couple of doses precisely to be able to redose if needed (and my partner she often needs to dose thrice when a single dose is enough for me to be completely out there) and because if there is soup left then we can have another session the next night. Ususally I brew 20 doses at a time but since this is a first try with Acacia I decided to go safe and am in the process of brewing only 5 doses ... and as I'm typing I'm just realizing I put twice too much water for the first pass, loooong reduction ahead :'(

With jurema I usually take one dose or two if I'm feeling adventurous - more only when doing bigger ceremonies with more people, not when it's just the two of us.

Also to have a better comparison scale, how much Mimosa are you used to dose when brewing mimosa and syrian rue ?

looking forward for your answer, filtering time now !

 

[TGO]

I have not actually brewed any mimosa in years mainly because I cannot find it anywhere! And that's fine with me. I am perfectly happy with the results of ACRB!

Anyway, back to your question. About 10 years ago I bought a book called, "Plants of the Gods. Their Sacred, Healing, and Hallucinogenic Powers" written by Richard Evan Schultes, Albert Hoffman and Christian Ratsch.

First of all it is a great book! Basically it is an encyclopedia of nearly every psychoactive plant known to man and it includes background and history of use! The point is, there is a recipe for "Juremahuasca" or "Mimohuasca" in the book and it calls for 9g MHRB and 3g syrian rue per person brewed in lemon or lime juice. That is the guideline I used to follow when brewing. Obviously that would be/was quite sour so I increased my cook time and added water. 25% lemon or lime juice seems about right. Still pretty gross! :roll:

Back then I was always in a rush and did not appreciate the magnitude of what I was doing and it is for that reason (I believe) that I never had a powerful experience(generally they were pretty dreamy and mildly psychedelic...nothing too overwhelming). Then again it could have been bunk starting material. Or maybe the universe was telling me that I was not fully ready yet.

Whatever it was, it got me where I am today. Brewing ACRB has been a wonderful thing for me and my girlfriend lately!

Anyway, you said you normally dose about 7g rue? I have read that that should be more than enough. How is the nausea for you? I may be super sensitive to rue because anything above 3-4g for me makes me vomit like there is no tomorrow and that is after drinking ginger tea too!

After about 5g (rue), you will start developing nausea. Beyond 7g you will be knocked to the floor pretty much.

Here is a link to that whole thread: can i drink TOO much syrian rue ? - Open Discussion - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

Well, that about wraps up my rant! Little longer than intended but...:lol:

Hope this info has helped in one way or another and good luck on your journey! Sending positive vibes your way!

-The Grateful One-

 

[Corax]

Thanks for the clarifications.

I've been owning "Plants of the Gods..." for several years, and frequently check it for common references (though not a lot these last years).
It's a great book indeed, although from a litterary point of view I'm more inclined towards Dale Pendell and his wonderfu Pharmako trilogy, which I've read several times. I love how he mixes poetry and magic with some science although he may explore some extreme territories.

I usually feel nausea, but rarely vomit (contrary to my partner who frequently do). Note that I don't brew PH and mimosa (or acacia regarding what's cooking) separately but together when taking DMT containing plants, I did a couple of times but my partner she didn't enjoy this way of separating thing, drinking the harmala, waiting then DMT, plus as I made a very concentrated brew from old brews mixed together and reduced, I didn't control the dosage at all which was a bit extreme (the kind of long experience we ended up in the late morning holding each other whispering "heeeelp ... heeeelp us..." 10 hours after the first glass with huge waves of DMT hitting now and then as soon as we closed our eyes ) - so I kind of vaccinated her about drinking harmala alone before the DMT source (I enjoy harmala by itself as tea or smoke although I stopped adding it to every cigarette I smoke because it tends to be hard on the gums, and I don't believe it's any good for the lungs).

7g that's right, I reckon it's a strong dose, we've been using up to 10 g, but we've been introduced to ayahuasca with strong doses of beta carbolines so we've kept it that way (and there are lots of stuff to avoid with IMAOs that we don't usually eat anyway). 3g is certainly enough to make the DMT orally active but as there are so many parameters when brewing the soup (including the variable quantity of alkaloids in the plant material) I tend to rarely change them - using acacia instead of mimosa is kind of a very big experience for us
I'm ok with the purge even if it can be quite intense and I can be quite shaked.
Regarding the thread you link to, I must say that the dosages reported as "extreme" don't corroborate our experience, but ingesting the entire seed is probably unrelated as an hot water extraction as the more toxical components are less water soluble than the blessed beta carbolines.

That being said, you're right I should emphasize that the syrian rue quantities we use shall not be taken as example and would rightfully be considered by many as excessive - we've been experiencing a certain number of times with it - to an amount several people would probably consider it unsafe although many others would consider it normal, in Peru it's not unusual for certain shaman to have ayahuasca several times a week, that's about the frequency we took our brews for a year, we're still having at least monthly syrian rue+mimosa sessions (as a comparison we have mushrooms only once to thrice a year). I didn't notice any tolerance but we're trying to learn how to handle the different situations.

As I'm doing a bit of tanin suppression with egg whites on the unreduced brew, it's possible that the strength of the brew is tempered by this step.

The recipe we're using was developped on the course of our experiments starting from a friend's recipe which used 4g syrian rue and 8g mimosa - which can have overwhelming results.

Edited to add : for safety I included a warning and the link you provided to my first post in this thread.

 

[TGO]

:lol:

I was just curious! Sounds like you have a good thing going! I wish I could handle more rue but everyone is different, right? :d

I also wish I had more time to devote to the brew but sadly, due to my very recent living situation, I cannot. My last Ayahuasca style journey was about 2 weeks ago or so (still have enhanced leaf on hand but there is something more mystifying to me with Aya). However I will be moving soon and then I will be able to get back up on that horse, so to speak.

I have never tried removing tannins via egg whites. Have you noticed any significant differences in a brew where you removed the tannins vs not removing tannins? I hear it really just makes the brew easier to stomach...?

Anyway, I will be looking into the Pharmako Trilogy as you mentioned seeing as I am always interested in a good read!

 

[Corax]

but everyone is different, right? :d

from a biochemical point of view, definitely !

I also wish I had more time to devote to the brew but sadly, due to my very recent living situation, I cannot. My last Ayahuasca style journey was about 2 weeks ago or so (still have enhanced leaf on hand but there is something more mystifying to me with Aya). However I will be moving soon and then I will be able to get back up on that horse, so to speak.

it's also good if not mandatory to have some timespan to unfold all the information !

I have never tried removing tannins via egg whites. Have you noticed any significant differences in a brew where you removed the tannins vs not removing tannins? I hear it really just makes the brew easier to stomach...?

in my experience it doesn't make the brew any weaker, nor does it give it good taste but it removes this astringency that stick to the mouth for hours and that is priceless.
I do this before any reduction, with plenty of liquid, and bring the brew to a strong boil for several minutes. Also I poor the egg whites not in a bloc but I don't stir before they became solid so I don't get plenty of little egg white particle making them impossible to filter, then I cut the biggest parts in the soup with a spoon to maximise their surface and fix more tanins. I probably lose a few interesting alkaloids but that's why I brew and don't do extraction, IMHO brewing is not (should not be) as oriented towards optimization as extraction is : as long as I can get a strong and drinkable brew without wasting too much material I'm happy.

Anyway, I will be looking into the Pharmako Trilogy as you mentioned seeing as I am always interested in a good read!

an excellent read, I can't emphasize enough.

 

[TGO]

Interesting! I think I will try the tannin removal next time. The thought of the brew not sticking in your mouth for so long is very enticing!

Thank you for your information! I have enjoyed this conversation greatly!

 

[Corax]

Interesting! I think I will try the tannin removal next time. The thought of the brew not sticking in your mouth for so long is very enticing!

I just used a single egg white in the acacia+syrian rue brew, and from a visual perspective I don't believe it's needed as much as it is with mimosa, the white didn't turn as dark as they do when I'm brewing jurema, so it's probably overworking the brew.

I suppose acacia confusa root bark have less tanins than mimosa tenuiflora root bark, which I should have read but I can't remember reading this information, or maybe it's a different color.

I'll tell you more after I'll try it - hopefully tomorrow evening (as the reduction will be finished too late tonight to have proper conditions).

 

[Corax]

Hello,

not a proper TR as some things need to unfold, and because it would be a bit too bold to draw conclusions from a first experience with this plant. Overall this acacia session went pretty fine.

Three observations me and my Lady partner shared :
- taste : actually a new kind of awful taste, pretty different than mimosa, something "burnt" and "woody", stays in the mouth despite not being too astringent, the taste definitely induce a certain mood.
- the plant : from this first experience, acacia confusa deserves its "confusa" name
- buzz : definitely very present, skin tingling, less a sensation of the body being invaded through every pore than with aya or jurema, more of a feeling of something flowing through the veins
- purging : no puking for the both of us, a light nausea feeling, some purgative effects but not excessively strong.
- afterglow : it was wonderful, really this acacia brew felt like an afterglow enhancer, the landing was enthusiastic and sweet.

We will have acacia again tonight, to learn a bit more about it, but we already both agreed to add ACRB to our usual jurema recipe to see if we can add some of this "sweet landing" alchemy.

 

[TGO]

Glad to hear it went well!

:thumb_up: